Date   

Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

Jim Betz
 

Rufus,
  You may be right - but in one version of the photo that I viewed I felt
that I was seeing both N and P and that they were properly spaced.  - Jim
Not saying I'm right and you are wrong.


Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

Jim Betz
 

Ed,
  That car you are saying is NP has a metal roof - if I'm seeing it right. - Jim


Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

Jim Betz
 

Garth,
  I was thinking more of modifications to the track than to the cars ... Jim


Re: Ratios

Tim O'Connor
 

Jason

I think at least SOME of Tim Gilbert's data was not from train lists, but from "cars on hand"
data - some railroads published this kind of data e.g. Great Northern annual reports. A railroad
might have a good supply of home road cars "on hand" that were just waiting for assignments, or
waiting for repairs. The PRR was famous for having tens of thousands of bad ordered cars on line
just being held for repairs, or retirement. I've seen railroad yard photos that shows scads of
home road cars of all kinds coupled together in long lines...

A great type of data is to know percentages of (1a) originated loads that terminate online (1b)
that terminate offline and (2a) received loads that terminate online or (2b) are interchanged to
other roads. Knowing AAR rules etc, one can make intelligent guesses about model consists that
represent these traffic flows.

Tim




On 9/15/2019 5:53 PM, Jason Kliewer wrote:
I've transcribed 10,000 car movements from 1960's train list for the Chicago Great Western and the home road cars only made up 10% of the total.

Along with that, in the top 10 were Canadian Pacific and Canadian National.

Jason Kliewer

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

David Soderblom
 

Exquisite, isn’t it?  All those directions in the boards and even different textures.  That’s why we model those freight cars, so that even a fairly casual viewer can see distinctive differences.  It really shouldn’t require advanced study to appreciate not-at-all-subtle distinctions between these cars, and I don't just mean the livery and heralds.

Even so, there’s pretty much height uniformity here.  Some years back in MM I remember the editor pointing out the very noticeable height differences within a post-WWII consist.  That greatly diminished with time, as all approached 10-6 IH.



David Soderblom,
Baltimore MD USA






Re: Ratios

Tony Thompson
 

Jason Kliewer wrote:

I've transcribed 10,000 car movements from 1960's train list for the Chicago Great Western and the home road cars only made up 10% of the total.

Along with that, in the top 10 were Canadian Pacific and Canadian National.

     One factor to consider in evaluating any road is what their proportion was, of originating vs. terminating traffic. One example is the BAR, which originated far more traffic than it received, fully 85 percent of all traffic was originated. This meant that they had to own a big car fleet to serve their shippers.
     A bridge route like the UP was almost the opposite.
     I discussed a Car Service article from the BAR as a part of one of my blog posts a couple of weeks ago, and provided a link to the BAR employee magazine about this. If you're interested, here is a link.


Tony Thompson




Re: Ratios

Brian Carlson
 

The G-N or N-G data really only works up to the mid 1950s. This is well stated in the analyses done by Tim and Dave.  Once you get later things changed, piggyback, specialized boxcars, specific service, older cars on the books but stored all over the place (looking at you Pennsy), etc. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Sep 15, 2019, at 5:53 PM, Jason Kliewer <wcfn100@...> wrote:

I've transcribed 10,000 car movements from 1960's train list for the Chicago Great Western and the home road cars only made up 10% of the total.

Along with that, in the top 10 were Canadian Pacific and Canadian National.

Jason Kliewer


Re: Ratios

Jason Kliewer
 

I've transcribed 10,000 car movements from 1960's train list for the Chicago Great Western and the home road cars only made up 10% of the total.

Along with that, in the top 10 were Canadian Pacific and Canadian National.

Jason Kliewer


Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

spsalso
 

The car two cars back is likely NP, account of the curved roof.

The car between has an interesting roof.  Hutchins dry lading, perhaps?

The first and second  plank (from the left) on the foreground car have a similar knot arrangement, implying they were adjacent cuts from the log.  FWIW.



Ed

Edward Sutorik


Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

Bob Webber
 

I would take note of age, car owner, car outline. The car with the narrower running boards is also a few inches narrower than the others...when you mix 36', 40' 50' etc. in the same train, when you have varying degrees of car widths too due either construction era or home road (look at a X29 vs the same era Western car), when the older a car is, the drier (usually) the boards get, the more "character" is evinced.

The real issue is though not only does the physics not scale as Dennis noted, but the boards width and warping isn't apt to scale (as much). Looking at the boards, some are warping one way, other another - one reason the drawings show specific grain patterns for specific boards in specific places/ The drawings don't just show the base construct, but there is far more to them - the scrap diagrams and the wood grains are critical in learning why a car was built in a specific way - and why and how they age. This is not unlike determining crown and laying the wood - or instilling a crown (by saw or cast) such that the load bears "on top of" the crown.

Most running boards on HO models are one piece - or three. Rarely do people make the effort of actually using three pieces of wood - in the proper sequence and grain pattern . If you are going to speak of variety in terms of the roof though, that's the granularity you are going to have to get to. Note that if you do as some of us did 40 years ago - scribing then shaving the inside of the "boards" to duplicate this (in our heads, anyway) - you end up with ...shaved plastic looking like ...nothing natural.

If you look at the photo, the 2d, 5th & 7th cars are all narrower - and have narrower running boards. When built, they were likely in proportion and within the standards. As cars got wider, the boards got wider. The saddles got wider - think the opposite of airline seat evolution. Too...check out the 7th & 8th cars - those appear to be much shorter, much narrower cars. The photo makes it look like that's 1 car - but check the brake staffs. So...you are looking at two sets of boards - not one that is widely varied. Looking at roofs is a fine thing - regardless. But in context it may make more sense.

At 12:12 PM 9/15/2019, you wrote:
Hi,

Recent post to another group

<https://www.shorpy.com/files/images/SHORPY-8c15269a.preview.jpg>https://www.shorpy.com/files/images/SHORPY-8c15269a.preview.jpg

On the question of the width of the running boards - on the first -full- car you
can just make out the "N. P." ... so I'm wondering if different RRs had different
specs for their running boards? Or is that tied to the mfgr of the car(s)? (Note
that the 2 cars on either side of the 1st full car have narrower boards.)

----------
Bob Webber


Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

Rufus Cone
 

Two points

The roof on the mentioned car does not have the expected NP features (roof not curved and cast fittings clamping the panel joints are absent at the edges).  From the LOC tif version of the image, I do not "see" the NP initials myself, even after adjustment.  Perhaps the N is the second letter in the reporting mark - suggesting perhaps GN, given the location of the photograph.

To find the Library of Congress version of a Shorpy photo such as this, copy the numerical portion of the Shorpy link 8c15269a into your search engine.  With Google it is the first item to come up.

https://www.shorpy.com/files/images/SHORPY-8c15269a.preview.jpg

...- on the first -full- car you
can just make out the "N. P." ...
--

Rufus Cone
Bozeman, MT


Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

Dennis Storzek
 

On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 12:15 PM, Garth Groff wrote:
Jim,

I have never heard of any sort of device to make cars rock, though some do due to inexpert assembly via loose truck screws.
The big problem with rocking model cars is that physics doesn't scale. Prototype cars rock at a natural frequency of maybe once or twice a minute, guessing here, but it's a slow ponderous motion. Model car with loose truck screws jitter at a frequency of maybe once or twice a SECOND, which looks maniac, not ponderous at all. the effect is just nervous jitters.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Jim,

I have never heard of any sort of device to make cars rock, though some do due to inexpert assembly via loose truck screws.

There was a device that made cars coast when kicked loose by a switcher available about 30 years ago. It essentially a special underframe/floor with a large flywheel with a rubber band to a sheave on one of the car axles, and I believe developed by John Allen. I had a couple of these and they didn't work very well; the drag in a train was considerable, there was reduced turning radius for the truck, and control in those days usually wasn't fine enough for a switcher to properly kick the car. Eventually these underframes went away with my Athearn blue box cars.

On one of my portable layouts I had a spur that was sunk into the baseboard so the ties were nearly covered in dirt and a lot of Woodland Scenics foam. I had pounded on the track a bit with a hammer to make the rails uneven (code 70 Lambert track), and my cars did sway somewhat. I never had any derailment problems. It was an interesting experiment, and sinking the track is something I plan for my next layout. One spur will be sunk so the rails are embedded in street paving with cobbles or stone setts, and the other will essentially be in dirt as the track goes into a small iron works yard. I plan to use a piece of Lambert guard rail flex track for these. I'm not going to bang on the rails though.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 9/15/2019 1:12 PM, Jim Betz wrote:
Hi,

  Recent post to another group

  https://www.shorpy.com/files/images/SHORPY-8c15269a.preview.jpg

brings up the question of "how does one achieve the variety of the roof details
that is evident in this picture?" ... as in are there any products out there that
provide the minor variations such as the roof walks (both how wide the boards
are and the fact that many boards are not straight/true).  Another detail is the
way the L-grabs have verticals that are 'truly vertical' at the corner.  Etc., etc.
etc.  
  On the question of the width of the running boards - on the first -full- car you
can just make out the "N. P." ... so I'm wondering if different RRs had different
specs for their running boards?  Or is that tied to the mfgr of the car(s)? (Note
that the 2 cars on either side of the 1st full car have narrower boards.)

  Also note that the string of cars shows that almost every other car is canted
a different direction (left/right) ... which indicates that the cars were rocking
and rolling their way into that curve.  I've -never- seen a layout that achieves
this particular effect ... that didn't also have a lot of "layout induced derailments".
What seems to be needed to be done to produce this would be very small
height shims one one side and then the other ... say about a car length or
so for each direction.  Yes?  Have you ever seen this produced in a way
that makes the cars rock back and forth - only slightly but enough so if you
look for it you notice it?
                                                      - Jim B. in Burlington, Wa.
               


Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

Eric Hansmann
 

The original is available to download in several sizes through the Library of Congress website at this link.

https://www.loc.gov/item/2017807305/

 

Nearly all of the Shorpy images are in the Library of Congress holdings.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Paul Woods
Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2019 1:24 PM
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

 

Hi Folks

If you encounter a Shorpy preview like this, all you have to do is copy and paste the link into your web browser, then delete the '.preview' part from the link before hitting enter; this will send you to the high-res version instead.

Regards
Paul

 

 

 

---- On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 05:14:22 +1200 Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote ----

 

  ... just noticed that you will have to go to the Shorpy site to get the
full details I've posted questions about ... the attached version is
some kind of 'preview' that doesn't expand when clicked on from
this group ... sorry.
                                                                     - Jim B.

 

 

 

 


Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

Paul Woods <paul@...>
 

Hi Folks

If you encounter a Shorpy preview like this, all you have to do is copy and paste the link into your web browser, then delete the '.preview' part from the link before hitting enter; this will send you to the high-res version instead.

Regards
Paul



---- On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 05:14:22 +1200 Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote ----

  ... just noticed that you will have to go to the Shorpy site to get the
full details I've posted questions about ... the attached version is
some kind of 'preview' that doesn't expand when clicked on from
this group ... sorry.
                                                                     - Jim B.






Re: Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

Jim Betz
 

  ... just noticed that you will have to go to the Shorpy site to get the
full details I've posted questions about ... the attached version is
some kind of 'preview' that doesn't expand when clicked on from
this group ... sorry.
                                                                     - Jim B.


Qs Generated by a Shorpy Photo ...

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

  Recent post to another group

  https://www.shorpy.com/files/images/SHORPY-8c15269a.preview.jpg

brings up the question of "how does one achieve the variety of the roof details
that is evident in this picture?" ... as in are there any products out there that
provide the minor variations such as the roof walks (both how wide the boards
are and the fact that many boards are not straight/true).  Another detail is the
way the L-grabs have verticals that are 'truly vertical' at the corner.  Etc., etc.
etc.  
  On the question of the width of the running boards - on the first -full- car you
can just make out the "N. P." ... so I'm wondering if different RRs had different
specs for their running boards?  Or is that tied to the mfgr of the car(s)? (Note
that the 2 cars on either side of the 1st full car have narrower boards.)

  Also note that the string of cars shows that almost every other car is canted
a different direction (left/right) ... which indicates that the cars were rocking
and rolling their way into that curve.  I've -never- seen a layout that achieves
this particular effect ... that didn't also have a lot of "layout induced derailments".
What seems to be needed to be done to produce this would be very small
height shims one one side and then the other ... say about a car length or
so for each direction.  Yes?  Have you ever seen this produced in a way
that makes the cars rock back and forth - only slightly but enough so if you
look for it you notice it?
                                                      - Jim B. in Burlington, Wa.
               


Re: Ratios

Randy Hammill
 

Although I generally agree with the Gilbert-Nelson approach, along with Bruce Smith’s percentages, they are very dependent upon the road you model. 

Bruce models the PRR, so 75% home road hoppers on any coal hauling road makes sense. But I model the NH that has a modest fleet of hoppers of less than 1,000, with little originating traffic that would send them offline. So home road hoppers make up a very small part of my fleet.

Understanding your road’s traffic is very important. For example, as much as 60% of the coal entering CT in my era was by water. That appears to have been Pocahontas and other bituminous coming through Baltimore, and I think was the primary source of coal loaded in NH hoppers to be distributed to industry, but particularly the railroad’s facilities. On the other hand, anthracite came primarily via Maybrook, unless you were in the vicinity of NYC, in which case it came mostly by float via Jersey City and Greenville. So I go with the anthracite hoppers as a mix of 75% home road of their loading point.

So the mix of hoppers is very dependent on whether you’re modeling a coal road or not, I think.

Gondolas and flats are the same, and since the NH was heavily involved in manufacturing, gondolas were also predominantly foreign. Like the hoppers, I think gondolas and flats are far more dependent on the home road of the loading point. 

I also think we often have too little variety (and too few) “rare” cars. I have two pictures, from different days, with ATSF Ga-8 gons, and these weren’t photographed because of their rarity, they just happened to be on those trains. Likewise the photos of the Litchfield & Madison gondola in New Britain. Numerous pictures of C&I hoppers, etc.

I’m not saying those happen every day, but based on those and many, many other photos that have “rare” cars (often in the background) show that there’s a wider variety than many allow. I think we often make the mistake of not having enough different “rare” cars to mix in, making the couple of rare cars that are owned very common on our layouts.

Randy
--

Randy Hammill
Modeling the New Haven Railroad 1946-1954
http://newbritainstation.com


Re: Ratios

Hugh Guillaume
 

Like most people, I have far more rolling stock than will fit onto my model railroad.  To determine how many freight cars to place on the tracks I calculated the capacity of all sidings - yard, passing and industrial based on 40' cars - and divided that in half to set the maximum number of cars to be on the railroad at one time.  My model railroad is based on an NYC single-track branch line to a coal mine so I have more NYC cars than other roads.  Also, I have no refrigerator cars because I have no on-line industry that would use reefers.  The coal mine has a capacity of nine two-bay hoppers so I need only eighteen hoppers.  I have one retail coal yard so I need two hoppers from roads that serviced anthracite mines - one load and one empty.  I used information that I found years ago in magazine articles to determine how many foreign road cars to have on the roster.  It all worked out well because my model railroad is not clogged with cars, there is no gridlock anywhere.  Like prototype railroads, my model railroad has lots of empty track which I think enhances the realism.  Too many model railroads have too much track and way too many cars and locomotives.  On my model railroad there are four NYC GP-7 locomotives and four NYC cabooses.  Passenger service was discontinued.  The era is 1953 with no rolling stock or vehicles any newer than 1953.  Discussing ratios is an excellent topic, by the way!!!


Carolinas RPM Meet November 8th and 9th 2019

O Fenton Wells
 

We invite you to our Carolinas School RPM, Winston-Salem, NC, Friday, November 8 & Saturday, November 9, 2019.
 
This is the third year under this format, and we are really excited about our line-up of speakers and hands-on demonstrators.  
 
Our two day program is more than lectures:  you will also have the opportunity to learn, hands-on, from some of the best modelers in the country so you will leave with new techniques that you have practiced!
 
For 1940’s to 1970’s modelers, Fenton Wells is presenting a great program on how to accurately model the Seaboard AF-2, 3 and 4 double door, 40’ box cars.
 
Fenton is also going to present an interesting history of Southern Railway’s Saluda Grade.  Bob Harpe, the king of “y’all line diesels”, will show you how to model the Western Maryland Chop Nose GP9.
 
For modelers of the modern era, our 2019 “Bash n’ Build” clinic, James Wall will provide step-by-step instructions on kit bashing the Accurail ACF covered hopper to be an accurate model of the Southern Railways ACF covered hoppers.
 
Additionally, we will have clinics presented by Randy McKenzie, Jack Dziadul, Dustin Whitten, Lao Labra, Tom Sinks, Ken Rickman, Paul Faulk and Dr. David Bott.
 
Butch Eyler will be helping you with hands-on weathering, and Lao Labra will be showing airbrush techniques after his program in a hands-on demonstration.
 
Also, Tony Sissons will be demonstrating his technique bending handrails and hand grabs fitted to “out of the box” models.
 
To help with research, Bob’s Photos will be back again this year.
 
If you are one of the first 20 to register, you will receive a complimentary Accurail ACF hopper that is the base kit for our Southern Railway Bash & Build Hopper!  [We thank Accurail for its generosity!!]
 
Send your $25 registration fee to:   Carolinas RPM, 
     c/o Kevin W. von der Lippe  
     P. O. Box 13642
 
We hope to see you in Winston-Salem on Nov. 8&9.