Date   
Various Steel Industry Loads

Bob Chaparro
 

Various Steel Industry Loads

An undated photo from the Ohio Memory website:

https://ohiomemory.org/digital/collection/p15005coll10/id/2993/rec/13

Description: "Ladles loaded on train cars for shipment made by the William B. Pollock Company."

Also visible are loads of steel coils, beams and plates.

And my thanks to Claus Schlund for finding the Ohio Memory website.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Re: Youngstown Sheet & Tube tank car

Steve and Barb Hile
 

There was some symbiotic relationship between Pennsylvania Tank Car Company and Standard Tank Car Company, with PTC being the older (1914 versus 1919).  I had some discussions after publishing the UTLX book over the identification of the Ohio Cities Gas Company, International Refinery tank cars shown on page 135.  It seems more likely that those cars (and the Youngstown Sheet and Tube car being discussed) were built by PTC before STC really got going.  STC continued to use the heavy built up underframe and tank saddle with the lowered running boards while PTC came up with a new underframe design in the 1920's.
 
GATC eventually purchased both and concentrated activity at the Sharon, PA STC plant.
 
Steve Hile



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bruce Smith
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 10:30 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Youngstown Sheet & Tube tank car

David,

My first impression was that the frame was classic Standard Tank Car, not PTC. To me, the bolsters scream STC. Can you clarify as to why you think it is PTC?

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of David via Groups.Io <jaydeet2001@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 7:44 AM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Youngstown Sheet & Tube tank car
 
YS&T 110 is the type of car that Pennsylvania Tank Car was building in
the early-mid Teens. The car behind it appear to be an early (pre-1917)
GATC tank.

David Thompson



Re: Various Steel Industry Loads

Jon Miller
 

On 9/21/2019 11:12 AM, Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io wrote:
Also visible are loads of steel coils, beams and plates.

    The ends of the flats are interesting.  Don't think I have ever seen that before.  Also for scenery the old track on the left of the photo is really a neat idea.

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, 
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Re: Various Steel Industry Loads

Brian Carlson
 

Cool photo but it’s mid-late 60’s at the earliest with EL hoppers, gothic P&LE and boxcar with the removed roofwalk. The load restraints  would be different in earlier times. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Sep 21, 2019, at 2:12 PM, Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:

Various Steel Industry Loads

An undated photo from the Ohio Memory website:

https://ohiomemory.org/digital/collection/p15005coll10/id/2993/rec/13

Description: "Ladles loaded on train cars for shipment made by the William B. Pollock Company."

Also visible are loads of steel coils, beams and plates.

And my thanks to Claus Schlund for finding the Ohio Memory website.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Re: Youngstown Sheet & Tube tank car

Tony Thompson
 

Steve  Hile wrote:

There was some symbiotic relationship between Pennsylvania Tank Car Company and Standard Tank Car Company, with PTC being the older (1914 versus 1919).  I had some discussions after publishing the UTLX book over the identification of the Ohio Cities Gas Company, International Refinery tank cars shown on page 135.  It seems more likely that those cars (and the Youngstown Sheet and Tube car being discussed) were built by PTC before STC really got going.  

        Certainly during the 1920s STC was far bigger than PTC, and we know that zPTC bought tanks from STC to put on its own underframes. But the early high-walkway tanks we are discussing are not likely to be part of that situation. They seem to me far more likely to be PTC cars.

Tony Thompson



Re: Youngstown Sheet & Tube tank car

Jack Mullen
 

On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 07:35 PM, Claus Schlund \(HGM\) wrote:
See also the image below, from the Republic Steel collecion, showing ERIE stock cars apparently used for loading pig iron.
  And when the driver think he safely on the other side
  He shouts back down the line to the man and he says
 I fooled you, I fooled you
 I got pig iron, I got pig iron
 I got all pig iron

You just can't mention stock cars and pig iron without invoking Lonnie Donegan.

Jack Mullen

Re: Youngstown Sheet & Tube tank car

earlyrail
 

Re: Youngstown Sheet & Tube tank car

al_brown03
 

The TKX bolsters sure look like Standard Tank designs. I wish one could see the YS&T bolsters a little more from the side: that "porthole" in the bolster is a Standard Tank spotting feature.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

Re: Question for Al Brown on Southern war emergency hopper

 

Thank you Al for the info. Did some more research online and found that a company called Rail Scale Models sells scribed wooden overlays. However they are advertised as fitting Accurail hoppers not Athearn. Someone also suggested scribing the lines. Since I have about 15 hoppers of both manufactures I think I’ll try all the methods at least once. Thanks again for the quick response.

Jim Moore

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

Re: Youngstown Sheet & Tube tank car

Donald B. Valentine
 

    There are several htings that stand out to me in this photo. Since the tank car is the primary reason the photo has been posted let's take it first. Were the walkways for this car designed by Rube Goldberg out on a drunk or some kindergarten kid? I look at the four straps around the tank and underframe and really wonder how well they could hold things together in ANY accident, let along
one in which the car was rolled over. Then I not the two 1/2 circumferential straps, one on either side of the dome to help support
the walkway. Noting two nuts on the underside of each strap supporting said walkway I presume it is only two boards wide. But
look at all of these pieces attached to the four circumferential and two 1/2 circumferential straps. There appear to be no rivets or
bolts showing to make this connection. Could it have been done by welding at this early period? Perhaps it's the lighting and the
shadows but I am really curious about this in the teens, judging by the May 1913 builders date on the Lackawanna GM class gon.
And look at the gon itself! When I think of gons from this time frame the ubiquitous Pennsy G22 gons always come to mind but
this Lackawanna gon appears to be constructed like a battleship in comparison! The heavy fishbelly underframe and the number
and spacing of side braces shown give it a very substantially constructed look even if lumber is used for the sheathing. There must
be a minimum of 15 on each side if not 16. Then there are the strap metal stake pockets bolted to the wood sheathing that always
look so neat on some of the early gons. I'd love to find the blueprints for that early gon as it would make an excellent model subject. Then I scroll to the far right and look at the Reading boxcar, all steel even at this early date. This and the gon make the
TKX tank car and old Pennsy boxcar look rather puny in construction to my eye. The Bettendorf T-section trucks on the gon lend to that impression as well when compared to the arch bar trucks looking like they came from the local smithy under the tack car.

Perhaps a different view of things, Don Valentine

Re: Youngstown Sheet & Tube tank car

Donald B. Valentine
 

Bruce Smith, what class is the Pennsy #532885 boxcar seen in this photo? Is the roof slope really as flat as it appears or is it just my view of it?  Also forgot to note earlier folks, not the sign on the utility pole, "DANGER Do Not Drink Water Polluted" with a bottom line I cannot read but the sign has got to be a first, especially in that era.

Cordially, Don Valentine

Re: Youngstown Sheet & Tube tank car

Benjamin Hom
 

Don Valentine asked:
"...what class is the Pennsy #532885 boxcar seen in this photo?"

Class X23.  Not likely to be mistaken for anything else.


Ben Hom

Re: Various Steel Industry Loads

Donald B. Valentine
 

Definitely a photo beyond our period given the steel I beams in the PC gon #598980. But not that the stacks of I beams
have a vertical piece of scrap wood between each of them and along the sides, the purpose for which I can only wonder
about except possibly to maintain that space between them for unloading purposes. But what gives with the PC car? It
appears to have wood interior sheathing and fairly high sides. Then I note the rolled sheets in some sort of container
devices on the two flat cars behind the I beam load. Don't know the steel industry but have never seen anything like
these before. Are they something secifically designed for easy loading and unloading with a high capacity fork lift or
what is their purpose? Such photos always present more questions than answers for me.

Cordially, Don Valentine

Photo: Wabash Mather Boxcar

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Wabash Mather Boxcar

An image from the Detroit Public Library:

https://digitalcollections.detroitpubliclibrary.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A172723

Click on the image and hold to temporarily enlarge it.

Description: View of several workmen loading wooden crate into railroad car at Michigan Steel Boat Company. "From Michigan Steel Boat Co., Detroit, Mich." painted on crate. "Mather car" painted on railroad car. Handwritten on back: "Companies--Michigan Steel Boat Co., 1910."

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Photo: Chicago & Grand Trunk Livestock Car

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Chicago & Grand Trunk Livestock Car

An undated image from the Detroit Public Library of a link-a-pin-era car:

https://digitalcollections.detroitpubliclibrary.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A149275

Click on the image and hold to temporarily enlarge it.

Description: Man stands atop railroad car with shovel; three railroad cars in front of low building; two boys stand in front of one railroad car; stacks of logs and lumber in background; painted on buildings in background: "Lumber yard, coal and wood, sash, doors & blinds."

Notice the interesting trucks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Photos: White Star Tank Cars

Bob Chaparro
 

Photos: White Star Tank Cars

Undated images from the Detroit Public Library:

https://digitalcollections.detroitpubliclibrary.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A168060

Click on the image and hold to temporarily enlarge it.

Description: View of cylindrical freight cars on railroad tracks behind chain link fence in front of unidentified refinery. Sign on cars: "Staroline gasoline is better; White Star Refining Co. quality products." Railroad tracks in foreground; factory smokestacks and storage tanks in background. Stamped on back: "Manning Bros., commercial photographers, 504-505 Lincoln building, corner State and Park Sts., Detroit, Mich."

++

https://digitalcollections.detroitpubliclibrary.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A168398

Click on the image and hold to temporarily enlarge it.

Description: View of cylindrical White Star Refining Co. tank car on railroad tracks. Sign on tank car with White Star logo: "Staroline gasoline is better." Stamped on back: "Manning Bros., commercial photographers, 504-505 Lincoln building, corner State and Park Sts., Detroit, Mich."

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Photo: PRR Flat Car 426837 With Electrical Equipment Load

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: PRR Flat Car 426837 With Electrical Equipment Load

An image taken in 1937 from the Detroit Public Library:

https://digitalcollections.detroitpubliclibrary.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A230879

Click on the image and hold to temporarily enlarge it.

Description: View of switching equipment shipment on railroad cars at the Springwells Station treatment plant during construction, Detroit water supply system. Printed on front: "City of Detroit. Department of Water Supply. Division of Engineering. Shipment of switching equipment for temporary switch house from Westinghouse Elect. & Mfg. Co. Springwells Station, spec. PS-110. 4-7-31." Stamped on back: "Manning Bros., commercial photographers. 504-505 Lincoln Building. Corner State and Park Sts., Detroit, Mich."

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Photo: CB&Q Boxcar 134010

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: CB&Q Boxcar 134010

An image taken in 1931 from the Detroit Public Library:

https://digitalcollections.detroitpubliclibrary.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A230469

Click on the image and hold to temporarily enlarge it.

Description: View of two men unloading alum, via a hose, from a railroad freight car during the construction of the Chemical Building in the Springwells Station treatment plant, Detroit water supply system. Printed on front: "City of Detroit. Department of Water Supply. Springwells Station. Chemical Building. Contract No. FC-20. Building construction: W.E. Wood Company. File no. 831. No. 30. Date: 8-6-31. Photo by Manning Brothers." Typed on back: "Unloading first car of alum; air hose suspended from cable."

Dictionary Definition of Alum: The most widely used alum is potassium alum. It was used since antiquity as a flocculant (promotes clumping of particles) to clarify turbid liquids, as a mordant (a substance that combines with a dye or stain and thereby fixes it in a material) in dyeing, and in tanning. Other alums include sodium alum and ammonium alum.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Re: Youngstown Sheet & Tube tank car

Dave Parker
 

To expand a little on what Steve Hile said about YS&T 110 (and TKX 700):

Standard Car (later Tank Car) Company commenced operations in April of 1916; it was the name change that dates to 1919.  Judging from their seminal publication "All About Tank Cars" (both 1919, 1921 editions), I don't believe that Standard ever built any MCB Class II cars, as the May, 1917, mandate for Class III cars was so imminent.  Since the two cars in question here are clearly Class IIs, I am skeptical that Standard built them, although the built-up tank bolsters certainly say "Standard".  There are four similar Class II cars with "high walkways" in Ted's SEFCRM vol. 2 but, absent some evidence beyond the bolster design that they were actually Standard-built, I remain dubious about these as well.  Perhaps there was some "engineering philosphy" associated with these earlier cars that somehow found it's way into Standard's design team.

As for Pennsylvania Tank Car, I have seen start dates of  1911 and 1914, both without any solid attribution.  There are some indications that they used built-up tank bolsters on some cars, but I have never seen a confirmed PTCCo car with anything like what we are discussing here.

As for Don's comment about the Rube Goldberg running board design, this raises some questions (that I can't fully answer) about the safety appliance standards for tank cars.  Based on AC&F's transition from the their Type 7 to the Type 11 (in ~1911), I have long assumed that the 1911 Safety Appliances Act banned the "high walkway design".  But a reread of the safety appliances section in the 1911 MCB annual proceedings doesn't really support this notion.  To date, the only place I have found good drawings is in the 1918 MCB Standards and Recommended Practices.  There, a tank car without end-sills (as is the case with YS&T 110) is shown with what I would call "intermediate height" running boards, as per the UTLX Class V and X designs.  Cars with end-sills are still shown with the high running boards as an allowable option, but I suspect this is something that was grandfathered back to MCB Class II cars (and perhaps some unknown cutoff date).  The MCB/ARA Specifications for Tank Cars strongly imply that anything built to the Class III standard had to have the low running boards and end platforms that we are so used to seeing (and the photographic evidence certainly agrees).

This is a long way of saying I don't know who built the two tank cars discussed in this thread, but I guess I have some strong opinions about who didn't.  Contrary evidence is of course welcome, as is any clarification about exactly how/when the 1911 SAA affected running-board design.

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Re: covered hopper grays take 2

Drew M.
 

I use Vallejo colors. Attached are the two colors I mix to achieve a grey for covered hoppers. I usually do two drops of white to one of grey with a little tweaking.

Drew in Philly

Modeling the pre-Depression years.

Sent from TypeApp

On Sep 17, 2019, at 09:05, Eric Mumper <eric.mumper@...> wrote:
Group,

Thank you to everybody for the replies.  I was not aware of the RMJ article.  Thanks also to Ed Hawkins for the scans of the actual color chips and others for their insight into the problems of the shades of gray and the difficulty into scaling them to models.

There are plenty of model paint grays and I appreciate the responses of actual uses to help narrow down the field.  Please keep them coming.

Eric Mumper