Date   
Re: NP R23 clone reefer

Tim O'Connor
 


The paint applied to these reefer roofs (and hatches) probably had "non skid" sand
added to the mix and so had a flat appearance. Then stencils were added to the hatches
with a gloss color (could be black or brown who knows?) background.



On 9/27/2019 6:06 PM, npin53 wrote:
Lets stir the pot some more.....On the far left, there is a patch of differently shaded paint on the hatch covers?

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

NP R23 clone reefer-Chrome Yellow

Andy Carlson
 

Chrome Yellow was a single pigment color used in large amounts early in the 19th century. The 1st Pullman Green paint that the Pullman company made after WWl was a blend of Chrome Yellow and Duco Black, both colors were pure paints Pullman acquired for real cheap after the war from the war department. The war department made their olive drab with the same two yellow and black base colors, just with a different mix ratio.

Later, well after WWll, Chrome Yellow was replaced by an industry blend of Cadmium Yellow and Cadmium Orange to eliminate the carcinogenic nature of real Chrome Yellow, which has chromium and lead.

Unless someone is certainly lucky in finding some real old stock Chrome Yellow (The real stuff, not the replacement) we can only get close, but with all of the caveots of surface, age, light conditions and color film differences; close is what everything we do is.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Friday, September 27, 2019, 11:19:44 AM PDT, npin53 <npin53@...> wrote:


The car color was called Chrome Yellow. I always try to match it to school bus yellow. Testers does have a chrome Yellow in its product line.

The 1949 built NP reefers with the diagonal panel roofs, were bare galvanized with brown ends. 

As for the 1947 cars, mine will be black until someone proves it otherwise, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Black car cement reflected light different than paint.


Aaron Gjermundson

Re: NP R23 clone reefer

np328
 

     Aaron is right about the Chrome Yellow on the car.  Chrome Yellow was also the color used on NP semaphore blades.
     Fred, I will agree that the tones you posted look different from the top vs the end. I believe (fingers crossed) that the roofs had granular grit (forgot the corporate name) and that well might throw off the light reflection to appear different. I know I posted something a ways back and Tony responded that the granules could be ordered in different colors.             
   Does anyone see a shiny surface reflection off the roof the way the black paint is elsewhere?    I do not. 

 Fred take the photo enlargement you supplied, https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/attachment/167035/0/Schermafbeelding%202019-09-27%20om%2019.26.53.png

     OK, within the red circle, look on top of the two ladders were they curve inward to attach to the car. The one from the car side on the left reflects the light differently than the one on the right. My feeling is that what is being judged as red is the manner that light particles scatter off an uneven surface, like granules.  However, black.
     I agree with Aaron on the roof, black, as that is what an NP 1944 color charts states: Metal roofs - black.  

     I need to run over to the MNHS and relook up the builders specs and see how many gallons of paint and which colors were listed and if indeed, a granular coat put on the roof. Perhaps that will happen this year.  I have a few (paying) research requests I have to get to first.  Not that this is unimportant to me, and Aaron. 

   Tony T, if I had solid, verifiable data to add, I would have responded.  

Some other externalities that factor in.  
1. From 1940 to 1947 includes WWII, which could affect paint colors, or paint chemical ingredients. NP changed their designation of what was to be painted silver (aluminum paint) during the war the war to white, and changed it back after the war. This may have affected reefer paint also, however until factual evidence is found, that is just a guess.
2. Human nature. In files regarding "paint" I found a letter from an NP VP to local division HQ asking about some semaphore blades being Canary Yellow. After checking back came the reply that the blades were badly in need of repainting and the store-master was out of the regular paint and sent the first thing he could get that was close. Several months later, when the correct paint was re-obtained, all these blades were repainted. I would hate to think if someone had a photo of this isolated incident going "Look! Proof!" without the prior letters explaining how this came about.
3. See the attached sheet, it lists eleven different paint suppliers. Does anyone think that (a) these were an exact match or (b) these weathered uniformly?  Much earlier than the date of the attachment, one 1920s sheet lists as many as 23 suppliers. 

I showed a photo looking back over an NP reefer consist crossing the Cascades in one of my RPM presentations: many, many, shades of reefer oranges and other colors. Combine that with Richard Hendrickson's statements about how dirty or sooty freight cars were when steam roamed freely.

And so, I hesitate to get into these briar patch conversations without solid factual information.                                      Jim Dick - Roseville, MN 




   


     

Re: SP freight train

Bill Keene
 

Paul,

Enjoyed the clips.

I have a soft spot for little engines. Good to see one in action. For some unknown reason I also have a soft spot for the AC-9s. There is just something about their shape and size.

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

On Sep 27, 2019, at 11:37 AM, Paul Doggett via Groups.Io <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:

Several kits among these cars
Paul Doggett. England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿



<Video.MOV>

Re: NP R23 clone reefer

Nelson Moyer
 

That’s overspray from painting the roof seams. There is overspray on the running board  at the center of all of the roof seams as well, as seen in the earlier photos. Apparently, the seams were sprayed the same color as the ends, but the rest of the galvanized roof was left unpainted.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of npin53
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 5:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NP R23 clone reefer

 

Lets stir the pot some more.....On the far left, there is a patch of differently shaded paint on the hatch covers?

Re: NP R23 clone reefer

npin53
 
Edited

Lets stir the pot some more.....On the far left, there is a patch of differently shaded paint on the hatch covers.

Is this mineral red paint over black? Black paint over black car cement? I don't think it is black over red. Just because it appears darker, doesn't mean that it is. I think it is more glossy than the flatter finish in the hatch and roof color.

Aaron Gjermundson

Re: 1944 AAR Boxcars

Benjamin Hom
 

Bob Chapman wrote:
"Sitting in the stash are several undec 1944 AAR (10'6", 4-4 improved dreadnaught end) boxcar kits from C&BT. Hard to imagine they have been there 30 years!

The carbodies are nicely executed -- a good base for prototype model detail addition. I'd like to bring these kits to life, but am running into a surprising lack of coverage of prototype information on this series of AAR prototypes. <<snip>>

I'll welcome any help you can point me to -- a comprehensive article on the series would be ideal, but articles on a specific road's prototype can also help. Hopefully I haven't missed a totally obvious resource!"

For starters, there's Ed Hawkins' spreadsheets posted on the old Ted Cullotta Steam Era Freight Cars website:


Ben Hom

1944 AAR Boxcars

Bob Chapman
 

Sitting in the stash are several undec 1944 AAR (10'6", 4-4 improved dreadnaught end) boxcar kits from C&BT. Hard to imagine they have been there 30 years!


The carbodies are nicely executed -- a good base for prototype model detail addition. I'd like to bring these kits to life, but am running into a surprising lack of coverage of prototype information on this series of AAR prototypes. I'm aware of the following:  


Richard Hendrickson's 1989 series in RMJ -- thumbnail photos, minimal caption info.

RPCyc -- photos of a few prototypes in their Boxcar Painting and Lettering series.

Ted Culotta's Steam Era Boxcars book -- a few photos.


What I'm looking for is RPCyc-type coverage of the 1944 AAR 10'6" 4-4 improved-dreadnaught series:


1. A listing of the prototype roads which owned them

2. Specs for a road's choice of door width, number of side panels, running board, handbrake, etc.

3. Good photos


I'll welcome any help you can point me to -- a comprehensive article on the series would be ideal, but articles on a specific road's prototype can also help. Hopefully I haven't missed a totally obvious resource!


Thanks,

Bob Chapman 

 


Re: NP R23 clone reefer

Donald B. Valentine
 

Hi folks, I agree that the ends look black and the roof red to me but the white in the monad herald b may seem
"whiter" in the newer herald only because there is more white in the larger size herald. I'm not convinced it is
different but may only appear to be. YMMV.

Cordially, Don Valentine

Re: SP freight train

Paul Doggett
 

Johannes
Your welcome
Paul Doggett

On 27 Sep 2019, at 21:11, vapeurchapelon <j.markwart@...> wrote:

Many thanks for sharing, Paul.

Johannes

Gesendet: Freitag, 27. September 2019 um 21:53 Uhr
Von: "Paul Doggett via Groups.Io" <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io>
An: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [RealSTMFC] SP freight train

Johannes
The AC9 is sunset the SE4 is Balboa.

Paul Doggett
On 27 Sep 2019, at 20:50, vapeurchapelon <j.markwart@...> wrote:

Nice Clips and beautiful trains! Are the engines from Sunset, at least the AC-9?

Greetings

Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953

Gesendet: Freitag, 27. September 2019 um 20:37 Uhr
Von: "Paul Doggett via Groups.Io" <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io>
An: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Betreff: [RealSTMFC] SP freight train

Several kits among these cars
Paul Doggett. England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿








Re: SP freight train

vapeurchapelon
 

Many thanks for sharing, Paul.

Johannes

Gesendet: Freitag, 27. September 2019 um 21:53 Uhr
Von: "Paul Doggett via Groups.Io" <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io>
An: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [RealSTMFC] SP freight train

Johannes
The AC9 is sunset the SE4 is Balboa.

Paul Doggett
On 27 Sep 2019, at 20:50, vapeurchapelon <j.markwart@...> wrote:

Nice Clips and beautiful trains! Are the engines from Sunset, at least the AC-9?

Greetings

Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953

Gesendet: Freitag, 27. September 2019 um 20:37 Uhr
Von: "Paul Doggett via Groups.Io" <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io>
An: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Betreff: [RealSTMFC] SP freight train

Several kits among these cars
Paul Doggett. England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿







Re: SP freight train

Paul Doggett
 

Johannes
The AC9 is sunset the SE4 is Balboa.

Paul Doggett

On 27 Sep 2019, at 20:50, vapeurchapelon <j.markwart@...> wrote:

Nice Clips and beautiful trains! Are the engines from Sunset, at least the AC-9?

Greetings

Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953

Gesendet: Freitag, 27. September 2019 um 20:37 Uhr
Von: "Paul Doggett via Groups.Io" <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io>
An: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Betreff: [RealSTMFC] SP freight train

Several kits among these cars
Paul Doggett. England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿




Re: SP freight train

vapeurchapelon
 

Nice Clips and beautiful trains! Are the engines from Sunset, at least the AC-9?

Greetings

Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953

Gesendet: Freitag, 27. September 2019 um 20:37 Uhr
Von: "Paul Doggett via Groups.Io" <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io>
An: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Betreff: [RealSTMFC] SP freight train

Several kits among these cars
Paul Doggett. England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿



Re: SP sugar beets

Paul Doggett
 

Cheers Claus 

Paul Doggett 


On 27 Sep 2019, at 20:07, Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;) <claus@...> wrote:

Hi Paul,
 
Very nice video!
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 2:41 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] SP sugar beets

SE4 on Sugar beet transfer job Detail Associates kits a couple are kit bashed with reverse dreadnought ends.
Paul Doggett.  England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿



Re: SP sugar beets

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Paul,
 
Very nice video!
 
Claus Schlund
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 2:41 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] SP sugar beets

SE4 on Sugar beet transfer job Detail Associates kits a couple are kit bashed with reverse dreadnought ends.
Paul Doggett.  England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿



SP sugar beets

Paul Doggett
 

SE4 on Sugar beet transfer job Detail Associates kits a couple are kit bashed with reverse dreadnought ends.
Paul Doggett. England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

SP freight train

Paul Doggett
 

Several kits among these cars
Paul Doggett. England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

Re: NP R23 clone reefer

npin53
 

The car color was called Chrome Yellow. I always try to match it to school bus yellow. Testers does have a chrome Yellow in its product line.

The 1949 built NP reefers with the diagonal panel roofs, were bare galvanized with brown ends. 

As for the 1947 cars, mine will be black until someone proves it otherwise, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Black car cement reflected light different than paint.


Aaron Gjermundson

Re: NP R23 clone reefer

Todd Sullivan
 

Hmmm, in the photo, the tone of the roof looks pretty close to the tone of the red in the NP herald.

Todd Sullivan.

Re: NP R23 clone reefer

Fred Jansz
 

The more I look at it, the more I'm convinced the roof wasn't black.
Maybe not even red, but could it have been silver-gray?
Take a look at this enlargement.
Hope someone can find a color picture of a similar or earlier car.

cheers,
Fred Jansz