Date   
Re: NP R23 clone reefer

Donald B. Valentine
 

Hi folks, I agree that the ends look black and the roof red to me but the white in the monad herald b may seem
"whiter" in the newer herald only because there is more white in the larger size herald. I'm not convinced it is
different but may only appear to be. YMMV.

Cordially, Don Valentine

1944 AAR Boxcars

Bob Chapman
 

Sitting in the stash are several undec 1944 AAR (10'6", 4-4 improved dreadnaught end) boxcar kits from C&BT. Hard to imagine they have been there 30 years!


The carbodies are nicely executed -- a good base for prototype model detail addition. I'd like to bring these kits to life, but am running into a surprising lack of coverage of prototype information on this series of AAR prototypes. I'm aware of the following:  


Richard Hendrickson's 1989 series in RMJ -- thumbnail photos, minimal caption info.

RPCyc -- photos of a few prototypes in their Boxcar Painting and Lettering series.

Ted Culotta's Steam Era Boxcars book -- a few photos.


What I'm looking for is RPCyc-type coverage of the 1944 AAR 10'6" 4-4 improved-dreadnaught series:


1. A listing of the prototype roads which owned them

2. Specs for a road's choice of door width, number of side panels, running board, handbrake, etc.

3. Good photos


I'll welcome any help you can point me to -- a comprehensive article on the series would be ideal, but articles on a specific road's prototype can also help. Hopefully I haven't missed a totally obvious resource!


Thanks,

Bob Chapman 

 


Re: 1944 AAR Boxcars

Benjamin Hom
 

Bob Chapman wrote:
"Sitting in the stash are several undec 1944 AAR (10'6", 4-4 improved dreadnaught end) boxcar kits from C&BT. Hard to imagine they have been there 30 years!

The carbodies are nicely executed -- a good base for prototype model detail addition. I'd like to bring these kits to life, but am running into a surprising lack of coverage of prototype information on this series of AAR prototypes. <<snip>>

I'll welcome any help you can point me to -- a comprehensive article on the series would be ideal, but articles on a specific road's prototype can also help. Hopefully I haven't missed a totally obvious resource!"

For starters, there's Ed Hawkins' spreadsheets posted on the old Ted Cullotta Steam Era Freight Cars website:


Ben Hom

Re: NP R23 clone reefer

npin53
 
Edited

Lets stir the pot some more.....On the far left, there is a patch of differently shaded paint on the hatch covers.

Is this mineral red paint over black? Black paint over black car cement? I don't think it is black over red. Just because it appears darker, doesn't mean that it is. I think it is more glossy than the flatter finish in the hatch and roof color.

Aaron Gjermundson

Re: NP R23 clone reefer

Nelson Moyer
 

That’s overspray from painting the roof seams. There is overspray on the running board  at the center of all of the roof seams as well, as seen in the earlier photos. Apparently, the seams were sprayed the same color as the ends, but the rest of the galvanized roof was left unpainted.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of npin53
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 5:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NP R23 clone reefer

 

Lets stir the pot some more.....On the far left, there is a patch of differently shaded paint on the hatch covers?

Re: SP freight train

Bill Keene
 

Paul,

Enjoyed the clips.

I have a soft spot for little engines. Good to see one in action. For some unknown reason I also have a soft spot for the AC-9s. There is just something about their shape and size.

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

On Sep 27, 2019, at 11:37 AM, Paul Doggett via Groups.Io <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:

Several kits among these cars
Paul Doggett. England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿



<Video.MOV>

Re: NP R23 clone reefer

np328
 

     Aaron is right about the Chrome Yellow on the car.  Chrome Yellow was also the color used on NP semaphore blades.
     Fred, I will agree that the tones you posted look different from the top vs the end. I believe (fingers crossed) that the roofs had granular grit (forgot the corporate name) and that well might throw off the light reflection to appear different. I know I posted something a ways back and Tony responded that the granules could be ordered in different colors.             
   Does anyone see a shiny surface reflection off the roof the way the black paint is elsewhere?    I do not. 

 Fred take the photo enlargement you supplied, https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/attachment/167035/0/Schermafbeelding%202019-09-27%20om%2019.26.53.png

     OK, within the red circle, look on top of the two ladders were they curve inward to attach to the car. The one from the car side on the left reflects the light differently than the one on the right. My feeling is that what is being judged as red is the manner that light particles scatter off an uneven surface, like granules.  However, black.
     I agree with Aaron on the roof, black, as that is what an NP 1944 color charts states: Metal roofs - black.  

     I need to run over to the MNHS and relook up the builders specs and see how many gallons of paint and which colors were listed and if indeed, a granular coat put on the roof. Perhaps that will happen this year.  I have a few (paying) research requests I have to get to first.  Not that this is unimportant to me, and Aaron. 

   Tony T, if I had solid, verifiable data to add, I would have responded.  

Some other externalities that factor in.  
1. From 1940 to 1947 includes WWII, which could affect paint colors, or paint chemical ingredients. NP changed their designation of what was to be painted silver (aluminum paint) during the war the war to white, and changed it back after the war. This may have affected reefer paint also, however until factual evidence is found, that is just a guess.
2. Human nature. In files regarding "paint" I found a letter from an NP VP to local division HQ asking about some semaphore blades being Canary Yellow. After checking back came the reply that the blades were badly in need of repainting and the store-master was out of the regular paint and sent the first thing he could get that was close. Several months later, when the correct paint was re-obtained, all these blades were repainted. I would hate to think if someone had a photo of this isolated incident going "Look! Proof!" without the prior letters explaining how this came about.
3. See the attached sheet, it lists eleven different paint suppliers. Does anyone think that (a) these were an exact match or (b) these weathered uniformly?  Much earlier than the date of the attachment, one 1920s sheet lists as many as 23 suppliers. 

I showed a photo looking back over an NP reefer consist crossing the Cascades in one of my RPM presentations: many, many, shades of reefer oranges and other colors. Combine that with Richard Hendrickson's statements about how dirty or sooty freight cars were when steam roamed freely.

And so, I hesitate to get into these briar patch conversations without solid factual information.                                      Jim Dick - Roseville, MN 




   


     

NP R23 clone reefer-Chrome Yellow

Andy Carlson
 

Chrome Yellow was a single pigment color used in large amounts early in the 19th century. The 1st Pullman Green paint that the Pullman company made after WWl was a blend of Chrome Yellow and Duco Black, both colors were pure paints Pullman acquired for real cheap after the war from the war department. The war department made their olive drab with the same two yellow and black base colors, just with a different mix ratio.

Later, well after WWll, Chrome Yellow was replaced by an industry blend of Cadmium Yellow and Cadmium Orange to eliminate the carcinogenic nature of real Chrome Yellow, which has chromium and lead.

Unless someone is certainly lucky in finding some real old stock Chrome Yellow (The real stuff, not the replacement) we can only get close, but with all of the caveots of surface, age, light conditions and color film differences; close is what everything we do is.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Friday, September 27, 2019, 11:19:44 AM PDT, npin53 <npin53@...> wrote:


The car color was called Chrome Yellow. I always try to match it to school bus yellow. Testers does have a chrome Yellow in its product line.

The 1949 built NP reefers with the diagonal panel roofs, were bare galvanized with brown ends. 

As for the 1947 cars, mine will be black until someone proves it otherwise, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Black car cement reflected light different than paint.


Aaron Gjermundson

Re: NP R23 clone reefer

Tim O'Connor
 


The paint applied to these reefer roofs (and hatches) probably had "non skid" sand
added to the mix and so had a flat appearance. Then stencils were added to the hatches
with a gloss color (could be black or brown who knows?) background.



On 9/27/2019 6:06 PM, npin53 wrote:
Lets stir the pot some more.....On the far left, there is a patch of differently shaded paint on the hatch covers?

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

armstrong refrigerator line

Richard McQuade
 

Anybody familiar with Armstrong Refrigerator Line?
Richard

Re: Steam line placement on express box cars

passcars
 

Along with the Steam Line discussions, another interesting feature that these cars had were 4 marker lamp brackets located on each of the 4 corners just below the joint line of the top and bottom end sheet.  BX cars were at times carried on the rear of express trains when the rider coach was positioned further forward.

Steve Peery 

Empty Car Card

Bob Chaparro
 

Empty Car Card

Below is an image of a PRR card "For Empty Cars Only".

There are instructions on the bottom of the card, but can anyone provide more insight into the basis and use of this card?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Re: Empty Car Card

Tony Thompson
 




On Sep 27, 2019, at 8:14 PM, Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:



Empty Car Card

Below is an image of a PRR card "For Empty Cars Only".

There are instructions on the bottom of the card, but can anyone provide more insight into the basis and use of this card?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

<Empty_Car_Card.jpg>

Re: SP freight train

Paul Doggett
 

Thanks Bill I must say like you I like little engines as well.
Paul Doggett

On 27 Sep 2019, at 23:36, Bill Keene via Groups.Io <bill41=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:

Paul,

Enjoyed the clips.

I have a soft spot for little engines. Good to see one in action. For some unknown reason I also have a soft spot for the AC-9s. There is just something about their shape and size.

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA



On Sep 27, 2019, at 11:37 AM, Paul Doggett via Groups.Io <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:

Several kits among these cars
Paul Doggett. England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿



<Video.MOV>


Re: SP sugar beets

O Fenton Wells
 

Very nice Paul, I liked the way you set the scene up
Fenton

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 2:47 PM Paul Doggett via Groups.Io <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
SE4 on Sugar beet transfer job Detail Associates kits a couple are kit bashed with reverse dreadnought ends.
Paul Doggett.  England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿





--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

Re: Empty Car Card

John Barry
 

Bob,

Many, if not most roads had forms like this.  Such cards were used for movement and return of empties.  Some roads didn't fill them out until the loaded car was at it's destination and the clerk or agent handling the inbound waybill filled it out from the information on it.  Other roads filled out an empty car card for an inbound load at the receiving junction, which then moved with the car attached to the waybill.  If the car was forwarded rather than unloaded on-line, the card was held at the outbound junction for use on the empty's return.  In either case, the form provided a means to move empties back to their origin or move them to where they needed to go for repairs, light weight, or loading.  Forms like this must have been the prototype inspiration for the "car card" portion of the "car card and waybill" car forwarding scheme that many of us use on our model railroads.  

The Santa Fe's version was Form 1850 Standard, Empty Car--Bill and Home Route Card.  I've attached a copy of my adaptation for use on my railroad.

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736


On Saturday, September 28, 2019, 02:14:02 AM EDT, Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:


Empty Car Card

Below is an image of a PRR card "For Empty Cars Only".

There are instructions on the bottom of the card, but can anyone provide more insight into the basis and use of this card?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Re: SP sugar beets

Paul Doggett
 

Thank you Fenton.
Paul Doggett 


On 28 Sep 2019, at 11:48, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

Very nice Paul, I liked the way you set the scene up
Fenton

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 2:47 PM Paul Doggett via Groups.Io <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
SE4 on Sugar beet transfer job Detail Associates kits a couple are kit bashed with reverse dreadnought ends.
Paul Doggett.  England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿





--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

Re: SP freight train

O Fenton Wells
 

Paul, busy man...excellent results
Fenton

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 2:39 PM Paul Doggett via Groups.Io <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Several kits among these cars
Paul Doggett.  England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿





--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

Re: SP freight train

Paul Doggett
 

Thank you again Fenton.
Paul Doggett 


On 28 Sep 2019, at 12:03, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

Paul, busy man...excellent results
Fenton

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 2:39 PM Paul Doggett via Groups.Io <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
Several kits among these cars
Paul Doggett.  England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿





--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...

Re: NP R23 clone reefer

Fred Jansz
 

My last contribution to this thread:

- If the base color of the roof was black, why would overspray on the runboard be light gray (compared to the black of the ends)?
- Or is it the anti-slip granulate we see as 'overspray' on the runboard?
- the ends & hardware show as pure black in the picture.
- the hatches show us 2 different hues of gray: around and under the lettering and on the rest of the hatch
  These 2 are significantly different, see picture and Photoshop measurement. 
  (BTW: I can't believe the paint & lettering were added OVER the granulate, this part of the hatch was masked while adding the granulate).
- Meaning the original roof paint is showing where the hatch-lettering can be seen.
  This also differs significantly from the black on the tackboard, see Photoshop measurements.

My 2 (or 50) cents: Sides (of this NP R23 91072) chrome yellow, roof red (w granulate), ends & hardware black.
cheers, Fred Jansz