Date   
Re: Photo: Painting A Boxcar On The RIP Track

Donald B. Valentine
 

Hello Bruce,

    There is no speculation involved here at all. To me the man is NOT spray painting. Look hard at the equipment being
used. Have your or anyone else ever seen a spray gun with a nozzle at the end of a pipe some 8 to 10 feet long? I have
not. Anything is possible but we have a piece of equipment at one place I work that look almost exactly like what it seen
in the photo but it is a sand blast unit, not a sprat paint unit. Having a Doctorate in Inorganic Chemistry I have spoken
with Bill Aldrich about h the photo. He feels it "could" be a paint system but seriously questions its use outdoors in
weather cold enough to have snow on the ground. It would require well thinned paint and good pressure to keep the
paint particles for precipitating from whatever medium they were carried in and questions how long one could paint like
this without things plugging up badly as soon as the flow was shut off. It is too bad I cannpt enlarge the photo to get a
better view of it but It is going to take at least that to convince me this is not a sandblast rig very similar to the one I
am familiar with.

Re: Swift Reefers

Dave Parker
 

I agree with Doug on almost all most points.  I can't speak to the steel cars, but creating an accurate tabulation of just the 37' wood cars is worse than daunting.  For reasons unknown, Swift (GA) stopped including car counts in the 1930 ORER (they are in my 1925 and 26).  They are also absent in my 1935 and 1940 registers.  Doug's message indicates that the counts were back by 1943 (they are in my 1945 as well).

Given the number of cars that were built in the 1925-35 time-frame, the acquisition of the fleet by GA, and the apparent renumbering of many/most/all of the the pre-GA cars, I despair of being able to construct a decent timeline from the 1920s into the 1940s.

One side note:  the MAC/ARA/AAR car classes evolved quite a bit over time.  The lineup of reefer classes in my 1931 Cyc is rather different than that from 1912 to 1922.   Ian Cranstone has diligently tabulated when the various classes appeared (and disappeared) from the ORERs:

http://www.nakina.net/other/aartype.html#Reefer

It seems that the RAM and RSM classes did not come on line until ~1943.  Prior, cars with meat rails did not have a specific designation.

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Re: When did USRE Rebuild begin to appear

Tim O'Connor
 


No, there is no such implication. That's what happens when you take things out
of context. The thread was about the origin of the USRE "brand name".

The TC cars were built by Pullman Standard but they were not PS-1 design. They
originally had Pullman carbuilder ends and roofs, but appear that some or all of
them received diagonal panel roofs from USRE.




On 10/14/2019 7:28 AM, Benjamin Scanlon via Groups.Io wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]


-- My earliest photo of a car with the USRE "United States" map on the side is from 1962.
The LS&I sold PS-1 box cars to USRE in 1961. And I have a note that says Tennessee Central
500-564 were leased from USRE in 1958. I evidently got this TC information from a letter to
the editor written by Stephen D. Johnson and published in the May 1989 (or possibly 1987, I
have conflicting notes) Model Railroading magazine. :-[ Eric Neubauer noted that the TC cars
were from USRE "Lot 179" so I'm guessing that means they were already in business for a while.

Tim O'Connor

Tim, are you saying/implying that TC leased PS-1s from USRE? Or other types? 

Cheers, 
Ben Scanlon
Tottenham, England


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Swift Reefers

Douglas Harding
 

There is an error in Martin’s chart from his RMJ article, and maybe more than one. According to my 1943 and 1953 ORER the 8200-9699 series of Swift Meat Reefrs were RAM cars, ie equipped with brine tanks. These cars are 37’ 5”, a  standard length for a wood meat reefer, not 41’ 4” as Martin’s chart shows.

 

Martin must have read the wrong line in an ORER as he prepared his chart. There were very few RS cars in the Swift fleet.

8000-8099  a 41’6” car, number of cars 25 in 1943, no number shown in 1953

8100-8199  a 40’3” car, number of cars 75 in 1943, 6 cars in 1953

6000-6004  40’3” car, total of 3 cars in 1943, not shown in 1953

24000-24049, a 41’6” car, number of cars 11 in 1953

24050-24074, a 41’6” car, no cars shown in 1953

24075-24099, a 41’6” car, shows 1 car in 1953

 

And RA cars 24100-24149 shows 1 car in 1953

 

Note the RS and RA cars are 41’ cars, most everything else is 37’, until you get into later built cars except for one block of 39’ cars. Both the 41’ cars and 39’ cars did not exist in 1948, indicating they were newer cars, and may even have been of steel sided construction.

 

A RS car did not have meat rails, as would be found in a RSM or RAM car. Note the door is taller on an RS car. The RSM has a shorter door, to allow for the overhead meat rails.

 

The General American cars, esp the earlier cars, appear to be a mishmash of many different cars, some of unknown heritage. Martin’s Chart, for what it’s worth, only shows series that had a 100 cars or more. Many of the series in the ORER had far less than 100 cars, some only had a handful, or even a single car. General American was in the lease business and lease could vary in both length and number of cars. Union Refrigeration Transit also acquired many used cars from a variety of sources. As leases expired cars were repainted, often renumbered as they went the shops. As leases could be as short as month and for very few cars, it is very difficult to track reefers in lease service.

 

Martin Loften published a 3 part series on Meat Reefers in the Feb Mar Apr 1992 Mainline Modeler. These articles formed the nucleus of his article on Meat Reefers in the Vol 2 Symposium on Railroad History, ed by Tony Thompson. In which Martin states: “The Swift fleet was a hodgepodge of different cars in the late 1940s.”

 

Attempting to create an accurate listing of Swift Reefers will be a daunting task. I don’t know what Martin’s source of information was. Obviously he used ORER’s, but he must have had other sources as well, as he lists numbers of cars in some series where the ORER’s I have do not show car totals.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

Re: Swift Reefers

Bob Chaparro
 

I noticed the Swift reefers in the table from the 8200-9699 series are RS and not RSM reefers.
Does anyone have additional information on these cars? I assume they were used for boxed meat.
Tim O'Connor has a photo (below) in his collection of SRLX 8602. This is an example of the cars.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA

Re: Swift Reefers

Douglas Harding
 

Actually Epstein shows both 1930 and 1931.

p. 44 “The Swift Line, acquired in 1931, is leased exclusively to Swift and Company.

p. 95 writing about individual shippers who sought to have General American take over and operate cars for them. “The first such major take-over was that of the car line previously owned and operated by Swift and Company, the Chicago meat packers. This transaction, consummated in 1930, involved 5,476 refrigerator cars and 145 tank cars.”

p. 158 Chronology list shows 1930 Swift and Company line purchased

p. 174 Table 3 shows the number of reefers owned by GATC went from 11296 in 1930 to 17910 in 1931, increase of 6614 cars, of which the 5476 from Swift would have been the major part of this increase.

 

I speculated that the transaction began in 1930 and perhaps was completed in 1931, hence the two dates. But no specific date is given, just the years.

 

Of interest: p. 68 table shows Swift Refrigerator line received 450 new reefers from East Chicago in 1937

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jim Gates via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2019 10:51 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Swift Reefers

 

Epstein's GATX history lists it as 1930. But it also lists ownership of 11,296 refrigerator cars at the end of 1930 and 17,910 at the end of 1931, so they may not have officially transferred the cars until 1931.

Jim Gates

On Sunday, October 13, 2019, 8:10:04 PM CDT, Dave Parker via Groups.Io <spottab@...> wrote:

 

 

Guy:

In his 1993 RMJ article, Martin gave the sale date as 1931.  Hendrickson and Kaminski's billboard reefer book gives it as 1930.

My 12/30 ORER doesn't exhibit any hint of the sale, but Swift is clearly listed under GA by 7/35.

I can't offhand recall any other sources on this question.  

With best regards.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Re: Lehigh Valley 4-Bay Hopper / Tennessee Central #8125

Eric Hansmann
 

This is pretty interesting. Now I need to dig up the pair of hoppers from my stash and decal them for the TN Central so they can be used on a local model railroad.

 

BTW, I’m sure there are at least 6 or 7 additional TC modelers in metro-Nashville.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

35 miles SE of Nashville

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Benjamin Scanlon via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2019 6:22 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Lehigh Valley 4-Bay Hopper / Tennessee Central #8125

 

Make that 3.6.  Interesting railroad, TC. Like they  transplanted a small NE anthracite hauler to the South.  Thanks for the photo. 
--
Ben Scanlon
Tottenham, England

Re: When did USRE Rebuild begin to appear

Benjamin Scanlon
 
Edited


-- My earliest photo of a car with the USRE "United States" map on the side is from 1962.
The LS&I sold PS-1 box cars to USRE in 1961. And I have a note that says Tennessee Central
500-564 were leased from USRE in 1958. I evidently got this TC information from a letter to
the editor written by Stephen D. Johnson and published in the May 1989 (or possibly 1987, I
have conflicting notes) Model Railroading magazine. :-[ Eric Neubauer noted that the TC cars
were from USRE "Lot 179" so I'm guessing that means they were already in business for a while.

Tim O'Connor

Tim, are you saying/implying that TC leased PS-1s from USRE? Or other types? 

Cheers, 
Ben Scanlon
Tottenham, England

Re: Lehigh Valley 4-Bay Hopper / Tennessee Central #8125

Benjamin Scanlon
 

Make that 3.6.  Interesting railroad, TC. Like they  transplanted a small NE anthracite hauler to the South.  Thanks for the photo. 
--
Ben Scanlon
Tottenham, England

Re: Swift Reefers

Jim Gates
 

Epstein's GATX history lists it as 1930. But it also lists ownership of 11,296 refrigerator cars at the end of 1930 and 17,910 at the end of 1931, so they may not have officially transferred the cars until 1931.

Jim Gates


On Sunday, October 13, 2019, 8:10:04 PM CDT, Dave Parker via Groups.Io <spottab@...> wrote:


Guy:

In his 1993 RMJ article, Martin gave the sale date as 1931.  Hendrickson and Kaminski's billboard reefer book gives it as 1930.

My 12/30 ORER doesn't exhibit any hint of the sale, but Swift is clearly listed under GA by 7/35.

I can't offhand recall any other sources on this question.  

With best regards.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Re: Reefer: Reverse Opening Hatch Cover

brianleppert@att.net
 

And the enlarged photo shows the two box cars ahead have some kind of roof hatches as well as other odd details.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

Re: Swift Reefers

Dave Parker
 

Guy:

In his 1993 RMJ article, Martin gave the sale date as 1931.  Hendrickson and Kaminski's billboard reefer book gives it as 1930.

My 12/30 ORER doesn't exhibit any hint of the sale, but Swift is clearly listed under GA by 7/35.

I can't offhand recall any other sources on this question.  

With best regards.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Re: Swift Reefers

Tony Thompson
 

Guy Wilber wrote:
Swift sold all their refrigerator cars to General American sometime (I believe) in early 1937. Does anyone have an exact date of the transaction? 

And of course leased them back.
.Tony Thompson _._,_._,_

Re: Swift Reefers

Guy Wilber
 

Steve wrote:

“Has anyone published any sort of detailed roster of Swift reefers?  I seem to think so, but can't locate such.  I do have Martin Lofton's RMJ 2-93 article”

Swift sold all their refrigerator cars to General American sometime (I believe) in early 1937. Does anyone have an exact date of the transaction? 

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada

R,_

Re: Reefer: Reverse Opening Hatch Cover

Bob Chaparro
 

You are so right. I enlarged the photo further than before and I can now see that these are normal hatch covers.
Thanks.
Bob Chaparro

Re: Reefer: Reverse Opening Hatch Cover

lrkdbn
 

No, this car has standard hatches. What is making it look like SFRD style hatches is the hatch plug laying on the roof at an angle. You can see the wood outside covers at an angle opened to ventilate the car; the open end facing the end of the car. I also have the Pullman builder's drawing for the NRC reefers and it shows "normal" hatches.
BTW thanks for bringing all these photos to our attention as you do!!!
Larry King

Reefer: Reverse Opening Hatch Cover

Bob Chaparro
 

Reefer: Reverse Opening Hatch Cover

This photo from the Library of Congress shows Northern Refrigerator Car Company reefer:

https://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2017839485/resource/

The car has two-piece hatch covers and plugs. I notice the hatch covers are in the "reverse position", similar to the design used on SFRD reefers generally before the era of mechanical icing machines.

Was this a common feature of Northern Refrigerator Car Company reefers? Did any other companies/railroads use this design?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Re: Lehigh Valley 4-Bay Hopper / Tennessee Central #8125

Steven D Johnson
 

OK, for the 2.6 people in this group interested in the TC, here's a photo of one of those ex-Lehigh Valley four-bay hoppers I mentioned in my post of 10/08/2019.

Steve Johnson
Nashville, TN

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steven D Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2019 6:10 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Lehigh Valley 4-Bay Hopper / some went to Tennessee Central and TP&W(?)

I'm glad the topic of these LV hoppers came up (again).

I have a keen interest in them because the Tennessee Central purchased 31 of these cars from International Railway Car Co. in 1956. They became TC nos. 8100-8130. As I recall, I have a photo in my TC files, and will scan and post it when I find it.

Also, TP&W acquired some (at least I assume they are ex-LV), but don't have any information on their acquisition. Just have the attached image of no. 829.

Chuck Yungkurth published a short article, "Lehigh Valley's composite quad hoppers" in the August 1997 issue of RMC. Included is a photo of one of the original composite cars and one of a rebuilt car, with HO scale drawings of both versions.

I have several of the Lionel and Hobbyline cars purchased at train shows or on eBay. Would like to eventually upgrade the models and decorate them for TC.

Steve Johnson
Nashville, TN



-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Scott Seders
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2019 7:55 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Lehigh Valley 4-Bay Hopper

Is the Hobbyline model the best starting point for this LV hopper?

I wanted to be certain there isn’t a better model (injection molded plastic or resin) available that I am overlooking.

Re: Photo: Painting A Boxcar On The RIP Track (Weathering Models)

Bob Chaparro
 

As I segue into weathering, Bruce Smith mentioned the use of Japan Drier as an additive for painting prototype cars. In the hobby world such additives also have applications for weathering.

Artists oil paints can be used for weathering but these dry very slowly. The slow drying time also is a major complaint from modelers who don't want to wait days or even a week to work on their models. 

To speed-up the drying time of artists' oil paints, professional artists use additives. Japan Drier is one:

https://www.sunnysidecorp.com/product.php?p=t&b=s&n=72416

White Courtrai Drier is another and this is what I use:

http://tinyurl.com/yae6bu7h

I still have a lot of working time even with a drying agent but my projects usually are dry in just a few of hours.

These additives are available in art supply stores, Michaels and Hobby Lobby.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Re: Photo: Painting A Boxcar On The RIP Track

Lowell Dorman
 

The action in the photo is pretty well documented in Glen Guerra's excellent article on painting railroad cars in the first issue of O Scale Resource magazine. It's a free, online publication you can access at oscaleresource.com. Go to back issues and download the PDF issue #1.
Lowell Dorman

On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 8:55 AM Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:
Don,

What is he doing then? 

You speculate that this is not painting but fail to give us any viable alternative. You also assume that the temperature is below freezing, when it could well be above freezing. I've spent many a lovely day skiing with temps in the 40s and 50s. At those temps, paint could be formulated to function. Indeed, at this same time, the PRR had different formulations of paint based on the season that contained different ratios of components such as Japan Dryer. For a blow-your-mind kind of a moment, these ingredients had an effect on the perceived color of the paint, and therefore it is likely that the as-painted color of the car varied with what season it was painted in 😉

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt=yahoo.com@groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2019 6:53 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Painting A Boxcar On The RIP Track
 
   The snow makes me really wonder if this is a paint scene or something totally different
as I find it hard to believe that anyone would be trying to paint in a temperature that is below
freezing. Even modern stains will not provide what is desired in such weather.

Cordially, Don Valentine