Date   
Re: Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

Dave Parker
 

As always, I find Guy's advice concerning MCB/ARA/AAR standards and rules to be sound and helpful.  I spent a bit of time paging through my 1928 to 1932 ARA Proceedings to get some sense of how much the open-top loading rules changed over time.  In that period, they don't appear to have been overhauled, but substantive changes were recommended by the LR committee almost every year.

It doesn't seem that complete copies of the booklet for any given year are conveniently available.  I did check the CSRM archives, and they do list a few editions.  In the1920s and 30s, these were hefty documents -- 250 pages and more  -- so they are not trivial to have scanned or copied. 

I am sure I have missed some, but digitized versions in the usual places (Google Books, Hathi Trust) seem very scarce, at least for pre-WWII.  I did find the 1934 edition at Hathi, which is a great find for a 1934 modeler!  Are there other years out there in accessible places?

I'm not sure what the difference is between steel strapping and bands, but I did notice quite a few references to the latter in my wanderings.  Here is an interesting example from the 1931 Proceedings:



--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Re: Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

Jack Mullen
 

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 07:53 PM, Douglas Harding wrote:

According to https://patents.google.com/patent/US3421951

The first patent for steel strapping was applied for in 1966.

Sorry, but both that statement and the implication that steel strapping is a post-steam era technology are wrong. The patent cited is for an improvement in the metallurgy of steel strap. Basic patents for steel strapping technology such as the tensioning tool and crimp fasteners go back to at least 1917. (Use of steel strapping itself to bind and reinforce crates goes back much farther, with the strapping fastened by nailing.)  
Here are a couple early ones.  A patent search for "signode" as assignee will find hundreds more.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US1376855A
https://patents.google.com/patent/US1495995A
The Signode Steel Strapping Co. was the pioneer of modern steel strapping.  While early applications were in packaging - banding crates, bales, bundles of pipe, etc., by WW2 steel strapping was being used for securing loads. I have a scan of a photo of a PRR GRA gon with a load of crates strapped to the car, circa 1943.
Signode's Chicago plant was adjacent to the C&NW. When travelling past in the late '50s or early '60s, I always looked for the cars on their spur. They had an old single-sheathed boxcar and a composite gon loaded with concrete slabs. There was a steep ramp at the stub end of the spur, and apparently the cars were used for impact testing for R&D, by winching one car up grade and letting it roll into the other. I was never lucky enough to see it happen, but I did notice that the cars had changed position at times.

Jack Mullen

Re: Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

Richard Townsend
 

Apparently its been around since at least the 1920, or even earlier: https://www.madeinchicagomuseum.com/single-post/signode

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: David W Beidle <gmnodave@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 15, 2019 8:34 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

Doug  Harding wrote: " The first patent for steel strapping was applied for in 1966."
I won't argue with you about that, but I was using steel banding (strapping) in the Air Force in 1963.
 
Dave Beidle
St Louis
 
 

Re: Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

Guy Wilber
 

Jim Betz wrote:

“The tie downs were actually different sizes of steel cable and that was produced in the factory. I'm guessing you can build a twisting jig that is similar to what they use at the factory to produce evenly twisted cable ...”

Jim,

No such material was used in the 1900-1960 era. Cable was allowed to secure rotating shovels and cranes and that was about the extent of its use during that period.

A good number of the members of this list have collected MCBA, ARA and AAR Open Top Loading Manuals and typically the factual information is distributed throughout the group. These rules were mandatory and if not followed (to the minimum described figures) any receiving road could refuse the load, or adjust the load and charge the delivering road for time and materials to bring it up to prescribed standards.

I would suggest that all who are truly interested In prototypical open top loads obtain a manual and utilize it. Additionally, narrow the revised edition closely to your modeling era as many diagrams were modified, or newly added, especially after World War II.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada

Re: Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

David W Beidle
 

Doug  Harding wrote: " The first patent for steel strapping was applied for in 1966."

I won't argue with you about that, but I was using steel banding (strapping) in the Air Force in 1963.

 

Dave Beidle

St Louis

 

 

Re: Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

Nelson Moyer
 

Oh well, just one more incongruence on my railroad.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Douglas Harding
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 9:53 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

According to https://patents.google.com/patent/US3421951

The first patent for steel strapping was applied for in 1966.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Scanned by McAfee and confirmed virus-free.

 

Re: M&StL 30000 series gondola kit under development

Douglas Harding
 

Attached are builder photos of the MSTL gon, a diagram drawing, and a photo of one of these gons in CNW MOW paint. I have a photo of one of these gons in MOW service dated 1983. I have sent all photos to Joe Binish.

 

I have been wanting a model of this car. I have the DA steel sided gon kit, which has the slope sides at the bottom of the ca. But as has been pointed out it is based upon an SP car, and not 100% accurate for the MSTL.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 8:55 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] M&StL 30000 series gondola kit under development

 

Thanks Tim, I don't have a pic I can post. It does appear to be the same design car, the spotting feature being the little pressed flange on the bottom edge of the stub side sills. There is a builders photo in the SLH&TS freightcars book, the car posed with the drop doors open, and it is evident that the doors are Dreadnaught pressings. The car also has what appears to be either Superior or Equipco hand brake. Tim's posted image is of a sixties/seventies era repaint; The original lettering is similar in arrangement, but a Roman typeface, with lines above and below the reporting marks. There were two number series; 8001-8199 (odd), and WC cars 67001-67199 (odd).

Question, do the Minni cars have improved Dreadnaught ends? They seem to have been built one to two years before the Soo cars. Likewise the Dreadnaught drop doors?

Dennis Storzek

Re: Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

Douglas Harding
 

According to https://patents.google.com/patent/US3421951

The first patent for steel strapping was applied for in 1966.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

Re: M&StL 30000 series gondola kit under development

 

Re: Tank Car help Identification

D. Scott Chatfield
 

From the ends of the tank body and the end sills I believe this is a UTLX pressure tank, a late model X-5 built in the early '50s.  Similar to the ACF cars Atlas and Kadee but with detail differences.  Closer to the Kadee because it should have Apex running boards.

As delivered the paint job was grey.  The car shot on the South Shore in 1970 appears to be a repaint.


Scott Chatfield

Re: Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

Nelson Moyer
 

I haven’t actually done wire tie-downs, just the 1/64 in. chart tape and chain on log loads. I’m getting four FM-11 flat cars from Jerry Hamsmith in Lisle, and I’ll need loads for them, so I’ll let you know how I did the wire after I do it. A jig sounds like it could work, just put two applicator sticks in a vise the same distance apart as opposite stake pockets, make a loop of wire and twist it by using a short piece of toothpick inserted at the center of the wire loop, which is basically what the prototype does. Magnet wire will hold its shape when twisted, so I would make the twisted loop a little shorter than the stake pocket space to be sure to have tension when installed.

 

I hadn’t thought about steel strap dates, but I assumed it was in use in the 1950s. Maybe I need to look at some photos taken in that decade. I probably won’t worry about clamps. I don’t build contest models any more.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 6:04 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

Nelson/any one,

  The magnet wire certainly allows you to get scale size (close enough).

  Since it is not the correct color what methods have you used - successfully - to
change the color?  I'm thinking either an acrylic paint (wash?) or something
like Blacken-It.
  How did you twist it to get uniform twisting?  The tie downs were actually
different sizes of steel cable and that was produced in the factory.  I'm guessing
you can build a twisting jig that is similar to what they use at the factory to
produce evenly twisted cable ...

            https://atlantic-cable.com/Article/WireRope/nmachine.jpg

  What would you use to do the cable clamps of the style that can be seen here

           https://www.homedepot.com/p/Prime-Line-3-8-in-Galvanized-Cable-Clamp-2-Pack-GD-12253/205894139

I do not remember ever seeing parts like this in HO.

  One thing - I suspect that flat "cable" (banding) was not -commonly- used in the STMFC era.
I remember using steel banding to tie up pallets of cases of salmon in the early 60's but I
don't remember seeing anything other than cable for heavy loads.  Wrong about the dates?

                                                                                                         - Jim in Burlington 

  At least one option for clamps is to simply not try to do them ... ?

 


Scanned by McAfee and confirmed virus-free.

 

Re: M&StL 30000 series gondola kit under development

Dennis Storzek
 

Thanks Tim, I don't have a pic I can post. It does appear to be the same design car, the spotting feature being the little pressed flange on the bottom edge of the stub side sills. There is a builders photo in the SLH&TS freightcars book, the car posed with the drop doors open, and it is evident that the doors are Dreadnaught pressings. The car also has what appears to be either Superior or Equipco hand brake. Tim's posted image is of a sixties/seventies era repaint; The original lettering is similar in arrangement, but a Roman typeface, with lines above and below the reporting marks. There were two number series; 8001-8199 (odd), and WC cars 67001-67199 (odd).

Question, do the Minni cars have improved Dreadnaught ends? They seem to have been built one to two years before the Soo cars. Likewise the Dreadnaught drop doors?

Dennis Storzek

Re: M&StL 30000 series gondola kit under development

Tim O'Connor
 


bingo!


On 10/15/2019 6:34 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 01:15 PM, Joseph wrote:
Don’t think so as the M&StL car is welded
I'm going to have to check pix of Soo Line cars; they built some all weld nominal 40 footers in their own shops in '48 or '49 that had the angled bottom of the side sheets.

Dennis Storzek

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

spsalso
 

I believe magnet wire always comes with insulation (otherwise it won't make a magnet).  If you use it, you'll be coloring the insulation.  Perhaps that same permanent marker I mentioned?  It comes in colors besides black.  I'm using dark umber.


Ed

Edward Sutorik

Re: Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

Jim Betz
 

Nelson/any one,

  The magnet wire certainly allows you to get scale size (close enough).

  Since it is not the correct color what methods have you used - successfully - to
change the color?  I'm thinking either an acrylic paint (wash?) or something
like Blacken-It.
  How did you twist it to get uniform twisting?  The tie downs were actually
different sizes of steel cable and that was produced in the factory.  I'm guessing
you can build a twisting jig that is similar to what they use at the factory to
produce evenly twisted cable ...

            https://atlantic-cable.com/Article/WireRope/nmachine.jpg

  What would you use to do the cable clamps of the style that can be seen here

           https://www.homedepot.com/p/Prime-Line-3-8-in-Galvanized-Cable-Clamp-2-Pack-GD-12253/205894139

I do not remember ever seeing parts like this in HO.

  One thing - I suspect that flat "cable" (banding) was not -commonly- used in the STMFC era.
I remember using steel banding to tie up pallets of cases of salmon in the early 60's but I
don't remember seeing anything other than cable for heavy loads.  Wrong about the dates?

                                                                                                         - Jim in Burlington 

  At least one option for clamps is to simply not try to do them ... ?

Re: M&StL 30000 series gondola kit under development

Dennis Storzek
 

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 01:15 PM, Joseph wrote:
Don’t think so as the M&StL car is welded
I'm going to have to check pix of Soo Line cars; they built some all weld nominal 40 footers in their own shops in '48 or '49 that had the angled bottom of the side sheets.

Dennis Storzek

Re: M&StL 30000 series gondola kit under development

Douglas Harding
 

Didn’t the DRGW have similar 41’ cars?

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 3:15 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] M&StL 30000 series gondola kit under development

 

Don’t think so as the M&StL car is welded

Joe Binish

 

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 3:02 PM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Was this style of GS gondola also built for other owners? It looks very familiar.

Great Northern perhaps?

Tim O'Connor




On 10/15/2019 12:13 AM, Dan Smith wrote:

Doug  Harding wrote:

One unique feature was the use of a Superior hand brake.

The hand brake of choice for the M&StL

Dan Smith


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Northern Pacific Hopper 70168 upgrade

Lester Breuer
 

I have finished upgrade of Northern Pacific hopper 70168.  A Train-Miniature hopper with offset side side gussets corrected to seven from nine and Archer rivets applied to get correct rivet patterns.   Other upgrade items include wire grab irons, brake gear after opening molded “B” end between braces, adding “B” end brake details as piping, train line, other under body details, and making decals for end numbers.  If you are interested, photos and writeup of the upgrade including paint match are now available on my blog I have to share photos and writeup of modeling projects on my Minneapolis & Northland Railroad Company.   If you would like to take a look please do at the following link:

http://mnrailroadcab100.blogspot.com/

Lester Breuer

Re: Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

spsalso
 

Oh, yes.  The dimensions I gave were for the small stuff:  "Fine".  There's also a "Heavy".  May be thicker, certainly wider.--didn't get any.  THAT one might be better for banding.


Ed

Edward Sutorik

Re: Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

spsalso
 

E Z Line is flat, not round.  I measure it at .002" thick and .005" wide.  If it's twisted (and it's hard not to twist it), that shows.  It just might be a good thing for banding steel, though.  It's 3/8" wide, in HO.  Seems kinda narrow.

Also, the "rust" color fades to a clear green with a few hours of sunlight.  It seems to take permanent marker well, though, as a repair.

I am in the middle of using it to make a barbed wire fence about 5' long.  It's probably the only thing to use if you're trying to recreate a fence in good order, where the lines are still taut.  For my fence, I SUSPECT the twist in the E Z Line will not be noticeable unless you know to look.  I do, and I can see it.

Ed

Edward Sutorik