1. main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
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Re: Gould/Tichy Tank Car (was Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car)

Tony Thompson
 

So Tony, you're accusing me of making it up?
Not at all, I'm suggesting maybe you don't know as much of what happened as you think you do.

Tony
Re: Gould/Tichy Tank Car (was Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car)

brianleppert@att.net
 

So Tony, you're accusing me of making it up?

Brian Leppert
Re: Gould/Tichy Tank Car (was Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car)

Tony Thompson
 

Because Bill wasn't brushing off offers because he never got any.
So you're stating that Richard made it up? Of all his character traits, that is about the last thing I would imagine. He sometimes dramatized events, but I can't recall any imaginary ones.

Tony
Re: Gould/Tichy Tank Car (was Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car)

brianleppert@att.net
 

Because Bill wasn't brushing off offers because he never got any.

Brian Leppert
Re: Gould/Tichy Tank Car (was Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car)

Tony Thompson
 

Brian Leppert wrote:

So I guess my point is I don't agree with what Mr. Hendrickson wrote about Mr. Gould.  And I was there.

     Not sure I see where your account, Brian, differs from what Richard wrote. If Gould was brushing off offers of assistance, why would you have heard about it?

Tony Thompson
Re: OMI 1930-built GATC 10,000 Gal double dome tank car

pennsylvania1954
 

Hi Bruce--Not Fred but the reweigh date looks like 7 57.
--
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
Re: Gould/Tichy Tank Car (was Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car)

brianleppert@att.net
 

I worked for Bill Gould for about 8 years.  During those years Bill's business had three people:  Bill, his wife Geri and me.  Business activities included lots of industrial model making, making some patterns for PFM and Chooch, tooling for Dimi-Trains' line of N-scale plastic kits, an HOn3 D&RGW stock car for E&B Valley and Bill's own line of HO freight car kits (later sold to Tichy).  I was laid off shortly after starting the PFE reefer tooling.

While having lunch and morning and afternoon breaks we all sat in the same office, eating and almost always talking about something.  During the USRA tank car project, Bill never mentioned any phone conversation with Richard Hendrickson or any one else about tank cars, and I'm sure he would have asked for my opinion if anyone had.  It wasn't until after Richard's review of our kit that Bill asked, and I answered, who Richard Hendrickson was and why he was so respected.
 
And I don't recall there being any secret about what car we were doing.  I certainly had loose lips.

Due to our limited experience of mold making and the lack of some important machinery, everything had to be flat kits, so a four coarse tank was a must.  USRA drawings from a Train Shed reprint were used, but we first learned of the USRA tank car from drawings in Model Railroader magazine.  In that MR issue, they stated that thousands of these car were built.  Neither Bill nor I had any reason to doubt the MR staff.  Now please, please remember this was about 37 years ago!

It wasn't until I mentioned to Robert Grandt, one of Cliff's sons, that we were almost finished with tooling and I still hadn't come across a prototype photo, and  Robert almost fell on the floor laughing, that I had a clue we might be in trouble.

So I guess my point is I don't agree with what Mr. Hendrickson wrote about Mr. Gould.  And I was there.


Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
Carson City, NV
Re: OMI 1930-built GATC 10,000 Gal double dome tank car

Steve SANDIFER
 

I purchased one of these two dome Overland cars and wrote Richard Hendrickson about it. His reply was:

"Steve, the genesis of this Overland model is that when Arndt Gerritsen was doing much of Overland’s prototype research and product development, he found a car bearing used
for storage which still had its reporting marks and numbers: NIPX 8. He photographed and measured the car and made drawings of it. He then contacted me for more prototype information, but I was unable to help much because the latest (1967) ORER I have did not have an entry for NIPX. My best guess is that the car had been owned by the North American Tank Line, which had a number of other reporting marks in the NI?X series. But that’s only a guess, and the NATX entries in the ORERs do not list gallonage or other data which might help in tracking it down.

Once I saw the drawings, however, I recognized that the car was essentially a two compartment version of General American’s 10K gal. insulated single compartment type 30s, and a photo in my collection prompted Overland’s model of the CDLX Western Asphalt single compartment car.

But that doesn’t solve your problem. Years later, I got a poor quality photo that showed a GATX insulated two compartment Type 30, and if I owned that model I’d paint and letter it to correspond with the photo. I think the car in the photo may have been an 8K gallon car, but I also think it’s as close as you’re going to get to finding a prototype for that model in your era. Al Ferguson’s “Black Cat” GATX decal set in black would do the job very nicely. FWIW, that photo is attached.

Paint is Light gray tank, black underframe and trucks. Some GATX cars in bulk wine service were painted aluminum, but most insulated cars that weren’t black were light gray, and that’s what appears to be the color of the car in the photo.


J. Stephen Sandifer

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2019 12:59 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built GATC 10,000 Gal double dome tank car


was Arnt (Arndt?) the fellow who had those great Lake Michigan car ferry models at Naperville?


On 11/5/2019 1:21 PM, Fred Jansz wrote:
Thank you very much for this information Craig!
The puzzle is nearing completion.
If only I could find out what was stecilled on those domes!
Resumé: these 1930-built, 10,000 Gallon insulated double dome cars
were in service as NIPX #6, 7 & 8 for the North Indiana Public Service
plant in Michigan City, Indiana.
They were already out of the ORER in 1936.
#8 was possibly the only only surviver (the other 2 possibly went back
into the GATX pool) at the NIPCO plant as 'captive car' and was
photographed there by Arnt Gerritsen.
Who also made drawings of which Overland made a model in ca. 1991.
Pity they didn't issue a painted & letterd version, otherwise it would
have been on the BT files as sample for mine.
Now the real challenge is to find the original Arnt Gerritsen picture
of NIPX 8, so I can make some decals for it.
In my closets this car is a sample of a lost car, far away from home
in 1950 in the Feather River Canyon.
To return home after decades, just in time for Arnt to take pictures
of it around 1988.
I understand from Jeff Lemke the OMI model is from 1991.
cheers,
Fred Jansz

--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*
Re: OMI 1930-built GATC 10,000 Gal double dome tank car

Tim O'Connor
 


Nice model. :-)

Folks discussed those Overland cars years ago on STMFC and elsewhere. The conclusion
has always been that Marsh just "made up" those two particular cars. They would have been
ok if he'd used SMALLER domes. Unlike the 3230 model we've been talking about - which does
have a prototype, if an exceptionally uncommon one - those two look kinda ridiculous.

Tim O'Connor



On 11/5/2019 7:40 PM, brianleppert@... wrote:
Here's my Overland tank car.  Friend Jerry Spoelma painted and weathered it.  I had asked for an appearance of having carried something awful and nasty.  Couldn't find those NITX reporting marks in any of my ORERs so guessed the best I could.  The model, OMI-3230, was built by Ajin.

I have doubts about the accuracy of some of Overland's tank cars.  For instance, three of their earliest tank imports were ACF single, double and triple dome cars.  The label on my single dome model says 8,000 gallon, but it is the same size as InterMountain's 10,000 gallon.  All three models used the same underframe and tank size.  I suspect the double and triple dome tanks are bogus.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Re: OMI 1930-built GATC 10,000 Gal double dome tank car

brianleppert@att.net
 

Here's my Overland tank car.  Friend Jerry Spoelma painted and weathered it.  I had asked for an appearance of having carried something awful and nasty.  Couldn't find those NITX reporting marks in any of my ORERs so guessed the best I could.  The model, OMI-3230, was built by Ajin.

I have doubts about the accuracy of some of Overland's tank cars.  For instance, three of their earliest tank imports were ACF single, double and triple dome cars.  The label on my single dome model says 8,000 gallon, but it is the same size as InterMountain's 10,000 gallon.  All three models used the same underframe and tank size.  I suspect the double and triple dome tanks are bogus.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV
Re: OMI 1930-built GATC 10,000 Gal double dome tank car

Bruce Smith
 

Fred,

What do you read the reweigh date as?


Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Nov 5, 2019, at 3:27 PM, Fred Jansz <fred@...> wrote:

I now have a better picture of the OMI NIPX 8 tankcar.
Maybe one of the tank car experts could advise about what could be stecilled on the domes?
The rest of the lettering is fairly clear/obvious.
Thank you.
regards
Fred Jansz <NIPX8-OMI_3230-87-88.jpg>
Re: Gould/Tichy Tank Car (was Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car)

Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

  I'd have to agree with you Tony based on my experience in working with Dick Truesdale on the
original B&M version of the So. Pac. 2-8-4's, with Mort Mann on the B&M Class K-8 2-8-0's, and
with Nick Ries on the B&M 2-10-2's. Those experiences were driving the factors in my deciding to
import brass under the New England Rail Service label.

My best, Don Valentine
Re: OMI 1930-built GATC 10,000 Gal double dome tank car

Craig Wilson
 

Hendrik Arnt Gerritsen . . . first met him in the early 1980's at the third-ever Ann Arbor Technical and Historical Society annual meeting and developed a long and close friendship.  He had three car ferry models on his layout at the Elberta Michigan Boat Landing.  The Arthur K Atkinson (formerly Ann Arbor No. 6) was his first effort and the most complete model.  Then came the City of Green Bay (formerly Wabash) which was "roughed in" enough to be on the layout but not fully detailed.  Finally he built a model of the GTW boat City of Milwaukee as it appeared during the time was leased to AA.  He was completing the detailing on that one at the time of his passing.  He had the hull cut to do Ann Arbor No. 3 but never went any farther with that one.  He gave a clinic on building a car ferry at the Naperville RPM and brought at least one of the boats with him.  He fretted mightily at the thought of damage occurring while it was being transported.  Interestingly, he had Jim Hediger's model of the Viking that was used on the cover of Model Railroader at one time.  That model was not quite built to scale and looked small sitting next to his other boats so it was on display sitting atop the backdrop behind Boat Landing.

As I type this I am gazing up at two car ferry "name plates" mounted on the wall.  The name plates were mounted on either side of the pilot house of the vessels.  As the boats were retired the name plates were donated locally.  Arnt tracked down the location of most of them and we made a road trip to make tracings of the originals (a couple were in Baker's Bar in Frankfort and we somehow convinced the bartender to let us take them down and trace them lying across the pool table).  Using the tracings Arnt and I each made full size replicas (right down to the countersunk mounting bolts),  He had Ann Arbor No. 3, Ann Arbor No. 5. City of Green Bay, and Viking.  I too made Ann Arbor No. 3 (currently hanging in the AARRT&HA museum room at the Durand Michigan depot), Ann Arbor No. 5, Viking and Wabash.  The City of Green Bay name plate was a monster . . . an oak plank almost 4-inches thick.  I still have my copies of the tracings stored away somewhere although there has not been a lot of clamoring by others to borrow them to make more replicas.

Craig Wilson
Re: OMI 1930-built GATC 10,000 Gal double dome tank car

Todd Sullivan
 

Fred,

I can't read the lettering on the domes, but I think it probably gives the gallon capacity of the tank and (separately) the dome in 2 lines of text.

Todd Sullivan 
Re: OMI 1930-built GATC 10,000 Gal double dome tank car

Fred Jansz
 

I now have a better picture of the OMI NIPX 8 tankcar.
Maybe one of the tank car experts could advise about what could be stecilled on the domes?
The rest of the lettering is fairly clear/obvious.
Thank you.
regards
Fred Jansz
Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Ralph;

I know next to nothing about the prototype other than from what I saw from the other side of a hurricane fence. It was on an industrial property siding. Greg and I both saw it at different times. It looked almost exactly like the large-dome Tichy car, with maybe slightly rounder tank heads, and did have AB brakes. From what I remember, it had painted out UTLX lettering. I had taken a photo, but it was destroyed along with most of my photo/slide collection in a flood in 1995.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ralph W. Brown
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2019 2:12 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car

Hi Elden,

I'd like very much to know more about that tank car you and Greg saw in LA and its history. I have three of those Tichy 4020 tank car kits that have been sitting on a shelf for some time now. I'd be great for any prototype identification or other info you might be able to provide - maybe even a photo?

Thanks,


Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
-----Original Message-----
From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2019 1:34 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car

To add;

I think we also take for gospel the belief that another's opinion is more than that; it is gospel. Ehhhh, not so much. I was told many, many things as gospel, on PRR freight cars, while I was doing the research, that turned out to be untrue. There are still people I know who swear by stories or "facts", that are not factual.

NO ONE knows the entire picture on freight cars. NO ONE. There were certainly more tank cars produced than anyone knows of, for which no photos exist, and variations were rife. I continue to find photos of cars I have never seen before (see attached). No one has ever done the research on the CISX fleet, I know of. And I've had people tell me their fleet did not contain cars like these. Really? Then what are we looking at in this pic?
And what is that car attached to 507? "It didn't exist".

And, both Greg and I saw that tank car in SoCentral LA that was the living embodiment of the large-dome Tichy car, and I stand by its use because I saw it. And it IS a great freight car kit, too!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2019 1:00 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car


And Overland was working in a time period when we were ALL learning about the incredible diversity of freight cars, led by modelers like Hendrickson and Nehrich and many others who sparked the whole RPM movement. So naturally Overland (and the other importers) made a lot of "mistakes" (I can think of some real howlers from Precision Scale) and often didn't reveal very much about the prototypes for their models (if indeed there was one). It was an 'era' of the model industry, and that time has passed at least for hand made brass models.

I take it with a grain of salt. An interesting looking, well made brass tank car that is realistically (if not "accurately") painted and lettered is always welcome in a train of mine... Many people hate Tichy tank cars because they're not right.
I love them because they are among the finest examples of styrene freight car kit design.

Tim O'Connor





On 11/4/2019 6:47 PM, WILLIAM PARDIE wrote:


Overland produced many fine pieces of rolling stock many of which I am proud to have in my collection. Some of their tank cars gave me reason to question them. They produced a three dome model which years ago I finished as a ULTX car.
I was pleased with the model until several years ago when I purchased a Tangent three dome car. The Tangent car looked like an N scale model next to the Overland car. I found some drawings in Mailine Modeler which were smaller than the Overland car.


I also had a problem with their 10,000 gallon car which had a rather large platform on each end of the car. Searched and searched but none found a prototype photo of this car. Again Mainline modeler had a drawing that exactly matched the Overland car. Possibly Overland used this drawing in producing the car.


My only other disappointment was a Texas & Pacific caboose which was 6' too short. This car was replaced with a Hallmark model that was correct.


These disappointments are avery small percentage of the many fine models
that they produced. I recently rounded out my collection with the purchase
of an Overland E-1 diesel originally done for the City Of San Francisco.
Overland also produced the version that SP converted to the Daylight scheme
with the big number boards. Very pleased with this model.


Bill Pardie






Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Tony Thompson <tony@signaturepress.com>
<mailto:tony@signaturepress.com>
Date: 11/4/19 1:20 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car


Bruce Smith wrote:



I was quoting the man… I can find no subsequent change of that sentiment,
and it is clear from Richard’s comments that he was not involved in the
design of this car.



You are right that Richard had nothing to do with model design and was
less than happy about what eventually came from OMI.
At one point he pulled out his prints of all the photos he had sent to
OMI. I had a few of those cars, and he had others, which we then looked at.
I don't have any doubts of his connection as at least a source of info for
OMI.



Tony Thompson
tony@signaturepress.com <mailto:tony@signaturepress.com>







--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Re: Gould/Tichy Tank Car

Tony Thompson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

There's also plenty of good examples of BAD information being provided to vendors!

   Good point, Tim. Some of us have not forgotten the "EXPERT" who advised LifeLike that the SP GP9s were never painted Black Widow, only Scarlet and Gray.

Tony Thompson
Re: Gould/Tichy Tank Car (was Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car)

Tim O'Connor
 

Tony

There's also plenty of good examples of BAD information being provided to vendors!
I think there is MORE good information that is available now than in the past, but
there's still plenty of incorrect info out there too. I'm just thankful that some
times, everything is exactly right.



On 11/5/2019 3:03 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
Dennis Storzek wrote:
I think we all forget just how hard it was to get accurate information AND DRAWINGS back in those days. Even Irv Athearn boned up big time while following "Real railroad drawings" as the ads used to say.
   No argument, Dennis, but there are also plenty of instances from those days of dedicated modelers providing very complete info packages, and the manufacturer going ahead with something very different, usually simpler and often quite avoidably wrong.
Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Re: Gould/Tichy Tank Car (was Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car)

Tony Thompson
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:

I think we all forget just how hard it was to get accurate information AND DRAWINGS back in those days. Even Irv Athearn boned up big time while following "Real railroad drawings" as the ads used to say.

   No argument, Dennis, but there are also plenty of instances from those days of dedicated modelers providing very complete info packages, and the manufacturer going ahead with something very different, usually simpler and often quite avoidably wrong.

Tony Thompson
Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car

Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Elden,

I'd like very much to know more about that tank car you and Greg saw in LA and its history. I have three of those Tichy 4020 tank car kits that have been sitting on a shelf for some time now. I'd be great for any prototype identification or other info you might be able to provide - maybe even a photo?

Thanks,


Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com

-----Original Message-----
From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2019 1:34 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car

To add;

I think we also take for gospel the belief that another's opinion is more than that; it is gospel. Ehhhh, not so much. I was told many, many things as gospel, on PRR freight cars, while I was doing the research, that turned out to be untrue. There are still people I know who swear by stories or "facts", that are not factual.

NO ONE knows the entire picture on freight cars. NO ONE. There were certainly more tank cars produced than anyone knows of, for which no photos exist, and variations were rife. I continue to find photos of cars I have never seen before (see attached). No one has ever done the research on the CISX fleet, I know of. And I've had people tell me their fleet did not contain cars like these. Really? Then what are we looking at in this pic? And what is that car attached to 507? "It didn't exist".

And, both Greg and I saw that tank car in SoCentral LA that was the living embodiment of the large-dome Tichy car, and I stand by its use because I saw it. And it IS a great freight car kit, too!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2019 1:00 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car


And Overland was working in a time period when we were ALL learning about the incredible diversity of freight cars, led by modelers like Hendrickson and Nehrich and many others who sparked the whole RPM movement. So naturally Overland (and the other importers) made a lot of "mistakes" (I can think of some real howlers from Precision Scale) and often didn't reveal very much about the prototypes for their models (if indeed there was one). It was an 'era' of the model industry, and that time has passed at least for hand made brass models.

I take it with a grain of salt. An interesting looking, well made brass tank car that is realistically (if not "accurately") painted and lettered is always welcome in a train of mine... Many people hate Tichy tank cars because they're not right.
I love them because they are among the finest examples of styrene freight car kit design.

Tim O'Connor





On 11/4/2019 6:47 PM, WILLIAM PARDIE wrote:


Overland produced many fine pieces of rolling stock many of which I am proud to have in my collection. Some of their tank cars gave me reason to question them. They produced a three dome model which years ago I finished as a ULTX car.
I was pleased with the model until several years ago when I purchased a Tangent three dome car. The Tangent car looked like an N scale model next to the Overland car. I found some drawings in Mailine Modeler which were smaller than the Overland car.


I also had a problem with their 10,000 gallon car which had a rather large platform on each end of the car. Searched and searched but none found a prototype photo of this car. Again Mainline modeler had a drawing that exactly matched the
Overland car. Possibly Overland used this drawing in producing the car.


My only other disappointment was a Texas & Pacific caboose which was 6' too short. This car was replaced with a Hallmark model that was correct.


These disappointments are avery small percentage of the many fine models that they produced. I recently rounded out my collection with the purchase of an Overland E-1 diesel originally done for the City Of San Francisco. Overland also produced the version that SP converted to the Daylight scheme with the big number boards. Very pleased with this model.


Bill Pardie






Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Tony Thompson <tony@signaturepress.com> <mailto:tony@signaturepress.com>
Date: 11/4/19 1:20 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] OMI 1930-built double dome tank car


Bruce Smith wrote:



I was quoting the man… I can find no subsequent change of that sentiment, and it is clear from Richard’s comments that he was not involved in the design of this car.



You are right that Richard had nothing to do with model design and was less than happy about what eventually came from OMI.
At one point he pulled out his prints of all the photos he had sent to OMI. I had a few of those cars, and he had others, which we then looked at. I don't have any doubts of his connection as at least a source of info for OMI.



Tony Thompson
tony@signaturepress.com <mailto:tony@signaturepress.com>







--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
14801 - 14820 of 182519