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Re: 3D pantograph mold making
Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
I was always told that 10 times the desired finish size was a good figure for a 3D pantograph master. Perhaps the larger question is where do you find anyone with a 3D pantograph? I know at least one shop that sold one for scrap, a good Decelle, after listing it for sale and receiving no inquiries for six months of better. Cordially, Don Valentine
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [PRR] Help with early steel shipment and coiled steel shipment cars
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Jim;
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
That is a fabulous photo, and EXACTLY what I was looking for. I wanted to contrast B&O and NKP use of Republic hoods with PRR use of home-built, larger hoods, and this is perfect. Thank you SO much! Elden Gatwood
-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of James E Kubanick Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2019 7:51 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] [Non-DoD Source] Re: [PRR] Help with early steel shipment and coiled steel shipment cars Elden, I'm not sure if this fits into what you're looking for, but I have attached a Howard Ameling photo of a B&O O-63d coil gondola, FYI. A group of O-59's were modified for coil service and re-classified into O-63d's. Jim Kubanick Morgantown WV On Thursday, December 12, 2019, 11:41:00 AM EST, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@usace.army.mil> wrote: Curt, and all; I am most interested in cars between the earliest photos I can find, in the mid-thirties, to the dedicated cars of the mid-fifties thru sixties. I have not been able to re-join the MFCL list, since their migration, for some reason. I am very interested in cars of Wabash, DT&I, NKP, B&O, C&NW, ATSF, RI, P&WV, NH, C&O, NYC, all of whom were on a parallel track with the PRR. There is a lot of great correspondence between the RRs in the PRRT&HS archives, which I'd like to share at some point. Thanks! Elden Gatwood -----Original Message----- From: PRR@PRR.groups.io <mailto:PRR@PRR.groups.io> [mailto:PRR@PRR.groups.io <mailto:PRR@PRR.groups.io> ] On Behalf Of Curt Fortenberry Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2019 11:23 AM To: PRR@PRR.groups.io <mailto:PRR@PRR.groups.io> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [PRR] Help with early steel shipment and coiled steel shipment cars Elden, You didn't mention an era, but I would also ask the folks on the MFCL groups.io list. There was a recent discussion of cars used for coiled steel. Curt Fortenberry
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Southern 36 foot truss-rod box car #166561
Brian Rochon
From the Steamtown site today. Build date looks like 3-1924. Good detail on T-braced end. Prototype for Westerfield kit 4102?
http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-12-13-19/X4935.jpg
Brian Rochon
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Re: Building GN and CB&Q Truss Rod 40-Foot Boxcars
Paul Woods <paul@...>
I don't cringe at the sight of people using slotted screws; I get jealous! I have very little success with slotted screws and I don't do much better with Phillips or Pozidrive screws either, largely thanks to nerve damage from a car wreck of twenty years ago making my fingers slightly numb.. Fortunately it is now very easy to source a vast variety of styles of [metric] screws with hex or torx drives. I particularly like hex-drive, for being able to stick the screw onto the driver bit, making it a one-handed job to start the screw - a huge advantage for a fumblefingers like me.
Regards Paul Woods Whangarei, NZ.
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [PRR] Help with early steel shipment and coiled steel shipment cars
Elden, I'm not sure if this fits into what you're looking for, but I have attached a Howard Ameling photo of a B&O O-63d coil gondola, FYI. A group of O-59's were modified for coil service and re-classified into O-63d's. Jim Kubanick Morgantown WV
On Thursday, December 12, 2019, 11:41:00 AM EST, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:
Curt, and all; I am most interested in cars between the earliest photos I can find, in the mid-thirties, to the dedicated cars of the mid-fifties thru sixties. I have not been able to re-join the MFCL list, since their migration, for some reason. I am very interested in cars of Wabash, DT&I, NKP, B&O, C&NW, ATSF, RI, P&WV, NH, C&O, NYC, all of whom were on a parallel track with the PRR. There is a lot of great correspondence between the RRs in the PRRT&HS archives, which I'd like to share at some point. Thanks! Elden Gatwood -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2019 11:23 AM Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [PRR] Help with early steel shipment and coiled steel shipment cars Elden, You didn't mention an era, but I would also ask the folks on the MFCL groups.io list. There was a recent discussion of cars used for coiled steel. Curt Fortenberry
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Re: 3D pantograph mold making
Robert kirkham
I guess I learned two things:
Was really impressed with the rivet detail on the large scale master, BTW.
Rob Kirkham
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Bill Welch
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2019 2:47 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 3D pantograph mold making
Just wondering what we are supposed to do with this information?
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Re: 3D pantograph mold making
Bill Welch
Just wondering what we are supposed to do with this information?
Bill Welch
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Re: R-40-23 reefer Dreadnaught end
I've said before, I've always admired the Front Range R+3/4 box car ends. Some other ends may be as good but IMO no one has surpassed them.
On 12/12/2019 12:49 PM, Andy Carlson wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
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Re: Looking for resin reefer parts
I think Craig Zeni got some - ask him!
On 12/12/2019 2:35 PM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
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Re: Looking for resin reefer parts
Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Did anyone acquire Stan's patterns and masters? He had some really unique stuff. Yours Aye, Mungo Napier, Laird of Mallard Lodge 🦆
On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 2:05 PM mopacfirst <ron.merrick@...> wrote: Speaking of molded ends, I'm looking for unbuilt reefer kits or molded resin ends, roofs and doors made by Stan Rydarowicz. If you have any you're willing to part with, please contact me off-list (click on the Private button bottom right, then on the Reply to Sender button that's turned blue on bottom right ) at mopacfirst@....
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3D pantograph mold making
Andy Carlson
I wish to be clear--I do not think that old-school 3D mold making is better than CNC. I am simply saying that 3D mold making has made some great model parts and has no need to be viewed as not worthy of fine toolmaking. In then decades since Athearn switched from Blue Box zinc outside axle bearing blomberg diesel trucks there has been dozens of HO blomberg trucks arrive on the market, and I would not be surprised to learn that ALL of them were made from CNC tech. Yet the folks who have earned high praise for their diesel locomotive builds are nearly unaminous in their preferring the Athearn styrene inside axle bearing blomberg diesel truck. And as I mentioned yesterday, that truck's tooling was made with 3D pantographed toolmaking and remains to the present the best such truck side frame in the hobby. To me the better CNC tools are using high quality digital scanning which allows the makers to avoid repeating those horrible Dreadnaught ends from the past which resulted from simplified data points placed into the CNC programs. We all remember seeing Dreadnaught ends with breaking steps in the swells' slopes. Those problems go beyond fixing with tool stoneing. -Andy Carlson Ojai CA
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Looking for resin reefer parts
mopacfirst
Speaking of molded ends, I'm looking for unbuilt reefer kits or molded resin ends, roofs and doors made by Stan Rydarowicz. If you have any you're willing to part with, please contact me off-list (click on the Private button bottom right, then on the Reply to Sender button that's turned blue on bottom right ) at mopacfirst@....
Ron Merrick
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Re: 1/12 scale R-40-23 reefer Dreadnaught end
Charlie Vlk
When I was visiting the Kato factory I reviewed the CNC milled positive aluminum trial of the N Scale RDC body.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Over the 3D aluminum object we discussed the roof curvature and marked it up for correction to the 3D CAD tooling files.... The following morning (!!!!) I was presented with the first plastic test shots of the corrected body shells!!! Reviewing 3D renderings of designs is vastly preferable to trying to absorb and index twenty or more paper drawings covering all the parts in a product. You can peel away elements to look at every aspect of an assembled model and rotate in it to view at from any perspective. The 3D design programs have built-in fit and interference features that make engineering and review much simpler. It is still possible to miss nuances of contour but still it is a lot easier than looking at old fashioned multiple plane views on paper prints. The review process within a company and the interaction between the project manager and the engineers at the factory is critical. If the engineers do not make recommended changes the product suffers. Too many times the designer (in China or even in the US) won’t listen and insists on doing it their way, even though the reviewer has direct end user input or experience. Importers need to write detailed outline specs covering the full range of quality, performance and feature characteristics to avoid problems, but too many put all in the hands of the factory and are surprised when products don’t measure up to what the market expects. Charlie Vlk Railroad Model Resources
On Dec 12, 2019, at 11:42 AM, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:
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R-40-23 reefer Dreadnaught end
Andy Carlson
I know that a good CNC program is certainly capable of superior work and is done so all the time, but I challenge anyone to find a better HO improved Dreadnaught end than the HO casting I sent a picture of yesterday. Yes, very few do any old school 3D work these days for the reasons you have stated about time. But my challenge I feel is safe from being broken. I look forward to being proven wrong. -Andy Carlson Ojai CA
On Thursday, December 12, 2019, 9:25:16 AM PST, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 08:45 AM, Andy Carlson wrote: And I totally disagree. Anything that can be cut by a 3D pantograph can be cut by CNC. In fact, you'll be hard pressed to even find a pantograph in a modern day tool shop, unless the owner is almost retirement age and never gets rid of anything. Toolmaker time is expensive, and a pantograph is a manual machine. The question becomes do you want your toolmaker to spend hours sitting at the pantograph, or be doing something else while the CNC machining center cuts the part unattended. Pantographs can't reverse the pattern; that is they can't cut a cavity directly from the model of the part. The usual way that was dealt with was to wax the part model, and then pour epoxy around it, thereby producing a pattern of the cavity. The real problem is one of visualization. It is difficult to see contours in a cavity that are very evident on the part. In the case of the 1/12 scale end, the pattern maker had the positive pattern to compare to the drawings, and most likely photos of the real end. In my toolmaking work, I cut graphite EDM electrodes, that, while small, are a positive copy of the part, so if contours are strange, they are evident, at least under magnification. The problem with the IM end is it was most likely cut as a cavity directly into the mold plate, relying on the computer graphics to inspect the shape of the surface, and obviously the programmer got it wrong and didn't catch it. This could have been avoided by using the opposite side of the surface geometry to cut a positive part in plastic or wax. Since CNC files are scaleable, the positive check piece could have been made oversize for easier inspection. Dennis Storzek
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Re: 1/12 scale R-40-23 reefer Dreadnaught end
Dennis Storzek
On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 08:45 AM, Andy Carlson wrote:
And I totally disagree. Anything that can be cut by a 3D pantograph can be cut by CNC. In fact, you'll be hard pressed to even find a pantograph in a modern day tool shop, unless the owner is almost retirement age and never gets rid of anything. Toolmaker time is expensive, and a pantograph is a manual machine. The question becomes do you want your toolmaker to spend hours sitting at the pantograph, or be doing something else while the CNC machining center cuts the part unattended. Pantographs can't reverse the pattern; that is they can't cut a cavity directly from the model of the part. The usual way that was dealt with was to wax the part model, and then pour epoxy around it, thereby producing a pattern of the cavity. The real problem is one of visualization. It is difficult to see contours in a cavity that are very evident on the part. In the case of the 1/12 scale end, the pattern maker had the positive pattern to compare to the drawings, and most likely photos of the real end. In my toolmaking work, I cut graphite EDM electrodes, that, while small, are a positive copy of the part, so if contours are strange, they are evident, at least under magnification. The problem with the IM end is it was most likely cut as a cavity directly into the mold plate, relying on the computer graphics to inspect the shape of the surface, and obviously the programmer got it wrong and didn't catch it. This could have been avoided by using the opposite side of the surface geometry to cut a positive part in plastic or wax. Since CNC files are scaleable, the positive check piece could have been made oversize for easier inspection. Dennis Storzek
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1/12 scale R-40-23 reefer Dreadnaught end
Andy Carlson
Hi Mark- I am not a tool maker and have never played one on TV (Ha HA). Most of what I know is just from listening to actual toolmakers talk. I have had a fair amount of resin casting experiences and those traits i can speak about more informedly. The only work I was involved with those 3 ends I sent pictures of was the resin HO end, I poured that casting in a mold I poured with RTV about 16 years ago. Even further back in time, I once saw the work from another old-school tool maker. This guy had the acrylic 4-1 sized positive of the Athearn Blomberg EMD truck which Athearn had commisioned for the replacement styrene sideframe for the BB Zinc out side bearing early Athearn Blombergs. That plastic sideframe is still held in ultra high regard decades later. That original toolmaker has since passed away. I wish I had bought that acrylic pattern from him when I had the chance. I think that in some very important ways the old-school methods of panto reducing down over size patterns with a pantograph can produce parts which the best of CNC tooling has not shown an even match. -Andy
On Wednesday, December 11, 2019, 8:08:23 PM PST, mark_landgraf via Groups.Io <mark_landgraf@...> wrote:
Andy If you have a Deckel photograph available, wouldn't it have been easier to make the first generation master rib and then use it to panto all 5 ribs, using an offset method into a ABS sheet? I model in 1/8 scale and have done steel tooling for 5 rib Murphy end panels. Now insert a piece .030 thick steel and apply 40 tons. Are you envisioning resin or vacuum formed or fiberglass sides and roof? What ever your choice, I'd recommend making sure it is UV and age/heat stable. Sometimes it is easier to make your master 2 or 3 times larger and then panto it down to the correct scale. Mark Landgraf Albany NY
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [PRR] Help with early steel shipment and coiled steel shipment cars
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Curt, and all;
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I am most interested in cars between the earliest photos I can find, in the mid-thirties, to the dedicated cars of the mid-fifties thru sixties. I have not been able to re-join the MFCL list, since their migration, for some reason. I am very interested in cars of Wabash, DT&I, NKP, B&O, C&NW, ATSF, RI, P&WV, NH, C&O, NYC, all of whom were on a parallel track with the PRR. There is a lot of great correspondence between the RRs in the PRRT&HS archives, which I'd like to share at some point. Thanks! Elden Gatwood
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR@PRR.groups.io [mailto:PRR@PRR.groups.io] On Behalf Of Curt Fortenberry Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2019 11:23 AM To: PRR@PRR.groups.io Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [PRR] Help with early steel shipment and coiled steel shipment cars Elden, You didn't mention an era, but I would also ask the folks on the MFCL groups.io list. There was a recent discussion of cars used for coiled steel. Curt Fortenberry
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Help with early steel shipment and coiled steel shipment cars
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Gang;
I am putting together a presentation on this subject, and am in the next phase of research. I am finding very much info on the story behind the shipment of steel sheet and coiled steel sheet, and numerous railroads' involvement, but have not yet found enough photos to show how the cars looked when complete. Do any of you have photos of pre-dedicated, or dedicated steel shipment cars? Or sources of same? I would be happy to share the story when complete! Thanks! Elden Gatwood
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Re: freight car roster shots
Eric Hansmann
Thanks for your comments, Lester and Jim.
Eric Hansmann Murfreesboro, TN
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Lester Breuer
Eric fine work. Especially like the C&O and the ACL stands out. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Assembling Truss Rods
Doug MacLeod
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