Date   

Re: Rutland flatcar with trailer load

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Don,

Your recollections are very interesting. I cannot agree or disagree with your assessment of the current Steamtown musuem. I do know that it has been something of a political football in recent years, and nearly faced closure. I know nothing of the New York location you mentioned, but do think the Scranton site while Scranton is hardly a tourist mecca) has certain access advantages, being on a major N/S freeway, plus it has the advantage of a very nice piece of track for their trains to play on.

When we visited Steamtown a few years back, my sweetheart and I stayed in the Radisson Lackawanna Station Hotel. Cushy and expensive, but definitely a class act, and a worthy reuse of a noble old building.  

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff  🦆


On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 7:26 AM Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Garth Groff wrote:

Walt,

I have an October 1958 ORER. Rutland still had 26 of the 2700-series in revenue service, and I don't know how many in company service. 

The Green Mountain Railroad dates from 1964, so I have no information about it (though some photos of recent vintage). Since this line was 
owned by Nelson Blount, also the founder of Steamtown in its original incarnation, there is no wonder how Rutland 2777 ended up in the 
modern Steamtown museum collection.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff  🦆


    This is absolutely correct Garth. The only thing I don't recall, and can't find my roster to check, is how many of the #2700 flats the GMRC 
ended up with as I believe the Vermont Rwy. got a few as well. The GMRC also got at least one of the older, straight side sill Rutland flat cars.
I knew Nelson Blount and drove within 2 miles of his place on my way home in August of 1967 when he was killed. The GMRC and Steamtown
were totally separated  shortly thereafter with Robert W. Adams heading up the GMRC employee group that acquired the railroad from Ne;son's
estate. Over the years I also worked for the GMRC as a relief passenger trainman, later as relief fireman for Steamtown for which later still I 
served as the insurance agent. The falling out that occurred between the State of Vermont and Steamtown in the late 1970's is a shame from
which I do not feel Steamtown has ever recovered, nor have I been at all impressed by the many losses and lack of very much real progress 
since it was moved and became the Scranton Scrapyard. Others may view it differently but that's the way I see it. If it was going to move I 
believe strongly that the Kingston, NY choice also contemplated would have been a far better choice in the long run.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Re: [SPAM]Re: [RealSTMFC] Reboxx 33 in. Wheel Application Chart

Nelson Moyer
 

Thanks, Bob. I also received the chart directly, and I should have notified the group to save other’s the trouble.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bob Miller
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2020 7:31 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [RealSTMFC] Reboxx 33 in. Wheel Application Chart

 

Here you go, Nelson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2020 5:59 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Reboxx 33 in. Wheel Application Chart

 

At one time, Reboxx had wheel application charts on their web page. For some reason, I downloaded the chart for 36 in. wheels but not the chart for 33 in. wheels. I’ll be eternally grateful if someone would sent the pdf of the 33 in. wheel chart.

 

Nelson Moyer


Re: WP Rebuilt Boxcar

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Jack and Friends,

Since we can't see a car number or more of the side, an exact ID is impossible, but I can come close.

Originally these were WP 14001-14100, built in 1923 by Mt. Vernon. See attached builder's photo.

In 1936 50 were rebuilt as steel double-door auto cars, including auto racks, renumbered 19001-19050. Racks were later removed at an unspecified date and they became general boxcars. I don't know if the left-hand doors were bolted or welded shut.

In 1938 32 were rebuilt as steel single-door boxcars renumbered 14301-14332.

In 1941 15 more single-door boxcars were added as 14501-14514.

The three missing cars were probably lost to wrecks.

To confuse matters somewhat, WP also had Standard Steel build 300 nearly identical wood-sided auto cars in 1924 with Murphy ends numbered 14101-14300. These went through a similar conversion process to single-door boxcars. Most of both groups were scrapped by the late 1950s. Understandably, any photos of these cars are pretty rare, especially the ones with Hutchins ends, though Will Whittaker did manage to snap a few shots.

Sunshine offered both the single-door cars with both Hutchins and Murphy ends.  

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff  🦆


On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 9:53 AM Jack Mullen <jack.f.mullen@...> wrote:
Unusual  end. I  don't think I've seen one like this before.
There are at least 5 sections, perhaps 6, riveted together.
Each piece has one rectangular rib.  What is it?

Too bad more of the car isn't shown. Can anyone i.d. it?

Jack Mullen


Re: WP Rebuilt Boxcar

Jack Mullen
 

Disregard my previous post. Hutchins of course, with height extended with a two rib Murphy section. 
I know better and my only excuse is that I hadn't had coffee yet.   (Face red)
Jack


Re: WP Rebuilt Boxcar

gary laakso
 

Yes, Hutchins ends.

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Riverboy via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2020 6:33 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] WP Rebuilt Boxcar

 

What type of end is that? Is it a Hutchins? Please pardon my ignorance if I am way off! LOL!

 

Tod C Dwyer

 

On Sunday, January 12, 2020, 09:20:17 AM EST, gary laakso <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:

 

 

Here is a fine picture of a rebuilt WP boxcar:

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1947-Oct-Salt-Lake-City/i-7hsPfxj/A 

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock


Re: ATSF BX-11,12, and13 rebuild question

Thomas
 

If you look in look in Santa Fe Freight in Color volume one by Preist and Chenoweth you will find photos of both the BX-11 and BX-12 class cars with raised roofs into the 70's.
 Tom Thompson


Re: WP Rebuilt Boxcar

Jack Mullen
 

Unusual  end. I  don't think I've seen one like this before.
There are at least 5 sections, perhaps 6, riveted together.
Each piece has one rectangular rib.  What is it?

Too bad more of the car isn't shown. Can anyone i.d. it?

Jack Mullen


Re: D&RGW boxcar end

Dennis Storzek
 

On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 01:59 AM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford wrote:
No, I don't think we are seeing the same thing. I'm not talking about the end as a whole, just what appears to be an extra indent on both sides of the joint to the left of the tack board.
Garth,

The fourth, fifth, and sixth photos down in this paper explains it all:

https://www.ttnut.com/resources/dreadnaught-ends-richard-hendrickson/8959

Dennis


Re: WP Rebuilt Boxcar

Riverboy
 

What type of end is that? Is it a Hutchins? Please pardon my ignorance if I am way off! LOL!

Tod C Dwyer

On Sunday, January 12, 2020, 09:20:17 AM EST, gary laakso <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:


Here is a fine picture of a rebuilt WP boxcar:

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1947-Oct-Salt-Lake-City/i-7hsPfxj/A 

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock


WP Rebuilt Boxcar

gary laakso
 

Here is a fine picture of a rebuilt WP boxcar:

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1947-Oct-Salt-Lake-City/i-7hsPfxj/A 

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock


Re: Rutland flatcar with trailer load

Donald B. Valentine
 

Garth Groff wrote:

Walt,

I have an October 1958 ORER. Rutland still had 26 of the 2700-series in revenue service, and I don't know how many in company service. 

The Green Mountain Railroad dates from 1964, so I have no information about it (though some photos of recent vintage). Since this line was 
owned by Nelson Blount, also the founder of Steamtown in its original incarnation, there is no wonder how Rutland 2777 ended up in the 
modern Steamtown museum collection.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff  🦆


    This is absolutely correct Garth. The only thing I don't recall, and can't find my roster to check, is how many of the #2700 flats the GMRC 
ended up with as I believe the Vermont Rwy. got a few as well. The GMRC also got at least one of the older, straight side sill Rutland flat cars.
I knew Nelson Blount and drove within 2 miles of his place on my way home in August of 1967 when he was killed. The GMRC and Steamtown
were totally separated  shortly thereafter with Robert W. Adams heading up the GMRC employee group that acquired the railroad from Ne;son's
estate. Over the years I also worked for the GMRC as a relief passenger trainman, later as relief fireman for Steamtown for which later still I 
served as the insurance agent. The falling out that occurred between the State of Vermont and Steamtown in the late 1970's is a shame from
which I do not feel Steamtown has ever recovered, nor have I been at all impressed by the many losses and lack of very much real progress 
since it was moved and became the Scranton Scrapyard. Others may view it differently but that's the way I see it. If it was going to move I 
believe strongly that the Kingston, NY choice also contemplated would have been a far better choice in the long run.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Re: D&RGW boxcar end

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Andy,

No, I don't think we are seeing the same thing. I'm not talking about the end as a whole, just what appears to be an extra indent on both sides of the joint to the left of the tack board.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff  🦆


On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 2:43 PM Andy Carlson <midcentury@...> wrote:
If what I am seeing is what you have commented on, then we are both looking at an early Dreadnaught stamped steel end which used "indented" (or inverted; I have heard both terms used in describing this end) stampings. The joint section had an obstacle rolled flat to allow riveting. This style of end was done quite well in my opinion from Al Westerfield in his ATSF box cars. This same style of end was used in the Pullman Co. built 50' single sheathed auto cars for the WP which MDC did several years ago in the pre-Tahoe Model Works era. There are 100's of examples of this style of end.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Saturday, January 11, 2020, 11:31:27 AM PST, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


Friends,

The second photo also captures a rare view of a WP-owned PFE reefer, 50556. 

Did you all take note the odd wale in the middle of the D&RGW car's end? It appears to be two sections pieced together, but with a matching additional half-indent in each. I've never seen an end like this before.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff  🦆


On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 11:21 AM David via Groups.Io <jaydeet2001=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Here's another raised-roof box.

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1947-Oct-Salt-Lake-City/i-Tnq2XQp/A

David Thompson


West Rail Kits Available

Bob Chaparro
 

West Rail Kits Available

I stopped by Reed's Hobby Shop (San Diego, CA, area) today and noticed they had two West Rail kits for sale (forgot to record the price, sorry). I know some of you would be interested.

Both kits are stock number R-122, ART steel body reefers appropriate for the 26000-26299 series from 1946 forward.

Here is the contact information:

Reed's Hobby Shop

8039 La Mesa Blvd,

La Mesa CA 91942

619-464-1672

E-Mail: reeds@... [reeds AT abac DOT com]

http://www.reeds-hobbies.com/

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: ATSF BX-11,12, and13 rebuild question

Nathan Obermeyer
 

John,

The information is very helpful and unfortunately the cars were retired before my modeling era. It’s interesting how many times the cars were rebuilt.

Thanks,
Nate


Re: Reboxx 33 in. Wheel Application Chart

Robert J Miller CFA
 

Here you go, Nelson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2020 5:59 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Reboxx 33 in. Wheel Application Chart

 

At one time, Reboxx had wheel application charts on their web page. For some reason, I downloaded the chart for 36 in. wheels but not the chart for 33 in. wheels. I’ll be eternally grateful if someone would sent the pdf of the 33 in. wheel chart.

 

Nelson Moyer


Re: ATSF BX-11,12, and13 rebuild question

Steve SANDIFER
 

The thing that confuses me about your description is the term “rebuilds,” becauses Santa Fe rebuilt them in several ways at various times. Just look at the website: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/tall-pratt-truss-single-sheathed-box-and-auto-cars#/  Yes, some were rebuilt in the mid 50s with steel sides, but the first rebuilds were in 1941 which were truss side cars with side extensions. The above website indicates that all forms are being proposed. If that is true, then there are several very different cars to be produced. I am content to wait for more formal and more detailed information. In the mean time, I have a enough of the Westerfield kits, and the mid-50 steel rebuilds are too late for my modeling era.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of John Drake
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2020 5:43 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF BX-11,12, and13 rebuild question

 

Nate,  

According to John Dobyne’s Santa Fe Boxcars 1869-1953, published by the Santa Fe Historical and Modeling Society back in 2001, the Bx-13s, which were not modified with roof extensions, were the first to be rebuilt in steel.  The program ran from 1950-52. The cars were rebuilt with riveted side-panel assemblies and extensions for the ends, which raised the inside height of the cars to 10 foot 6 inches. They were also given new AB brake systems with crosswise-mounted reservoirs, 6/5/5 Youngstown light­weight doors, and either Blaw-Knox or Transco metal running boards. The cars retained their Ajax handbrakes and Dalman I-level trucks. The rebuilt 985 cars retained their Bx-13 classification, but were renumbered into the 32500-33484 number series. These cars remained in service until 1973.

The cars that Prototype Junction are planning produce are the Bx-11 rebuilds.  This rebuild program began in 1956 and continued through 1962. The majority of the class were rebuilt very similar to the Bx-13 class and assigned numbers in the 19000-20438 number series. This series retained their Bx-11 class designation. The cars numbered between 19000 and 19895 were modified from 10 foot 6 inch high Bx-11s in the 210000-210960 series. The cars numbered 19896-20438 were rebuilt from 10 foot high or unmodified Bx-11s in the 124000-125999 series.  The last of the rebuilt Bx-11 cars remained in service until 1976.

The primary differences between the bodies of the Bx-13 rebuilds and the Bx-11 rebuilds were their roofs and ends. Dobyne states that after rebuilding, all the Bx-11 class had rectangular-panel steel roofs which extended to the ends of the car. The extension panel on the ends formed the peak of the end and included a Dreadnaught corrugation which matched a portion of the original recessed Dreadnaught ends. They were also given sill steps with two rungs at each corner of the car.  These rebuilds retained their Dalman 2-level trucks, but the were modified with ASF spring packages. Most cars in this series were equipped with Youngstown doors, but some of the higher numbered cars received Superior 5-panel doors.

Just a comment on these rebuilt cars’ paint scheme.  the Santa Fe adopted its “Ship and Travel” paint scheme with the large herald in 1959, in the middle of this rebuilding program. According to Dobyne, there was a break in production between December 1958 and August 1959, so the first car produced in August, car number 19848, was probably the first car painted in the new scheme

Hope this helps!

John


Reboxx 33 in. Wheel Application Chart

Nelson Moyer
 

At one time, Reboxx had wheel application charts on their web page. For some reason, I downloaded the chart for 36 in. wheels but not the chart for 33 in. wheels. I’ll be eternally grateful if someone would sent the pdf of the 33 in. wheel chart.

 

Nelson Moyer


Re: D&RGW boxcar end

mopacfirst
 

Detouring back to the the Santa Fe, since I'm almost finished with a Bx-11 and have a couple Bx-12s on the bench, I will note that Westerfield indeed got that little curve modeled right on the Bx-11, and for the Bx-12s, that area adjacent to the center rivet seam on the car ends is correctly flat.

Ron Merrick


Re: What type of vegetation is traveling on the DRGW?

Don Strack
 

Actually, the gondola in the photo is carrying scrap tin plate from American Can in Ogden. The scrap tin plate, from the can manufacturing process, was shipped south to Proler Steel near Bingham, where it was used to extract copper (by precipitation) from copper-bearing water that had percolated down through the waste rock dumps from the Utah Copper open pit copper mine. It is a chemical process that includes a weak sulfuric acid solution in which the iron is replaced by copper oxide, resulting in copper that is about 90 percent pure.

The trip was D&RGW all the way, Ogden to Salt Lake City, then Salt Lake City to Midvale, then out the Bingham Branch to Proler Steel, which was about two miles east, outside Bingham Canyon. Proler Steel burned the coatings off the tin plate in a large rotating kiln, and the processed tin plate scrap was loaded on D&RGW GS gondolas and shipped to the precipitation plant at Copperton, at the mouth of Bingham Canyon.

More information about copper precipitation is here...

https://utahrails.net/bingham/bingham-leaching-plants.php

Don Strack


Re: ATSF BX-11,12, and13 rebuild question

Tim O'Connor
 

We're not supposed to discuss freight cars after 1960. Are you referring to the raised roof rebuilds?
I've only seen one photo of a raised roof Bx-12 with an ACI tracking label. All cars in revenue service
1968 to about 1978 were supposed to have them.

On 1/10/2020 7:54 PM, Nathan Obermeyer via Groups.Io wrote:

Prototype Junction is looking to produce ATSF BX-11, BX-12, and BX-13 models to include rebuilds in the late 1950s. The rebuilds would possibly fit my modeling time frame of 1979 and I'd like to ask the ATSF experts what the road numbers were for these cars after the 1959 rebuild? Were they put in a new class of cars? I recently purchased the ATSF Color Guide book, but it didn't have photos of the 1959 rebuilds. Can someone provide the history of the rebuilds?

Thanks,

Nate
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*