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Re: Standard Steel Drawing List
Dennis Storzek
On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 06:31 AM, Bob Webber wrote:
We have a very clear idea how SSC drawings are organized - and it's not as you describe. They are most certainly arranged in a manner similar to Pullman (dep[ending on exactly WHICH drawing naming convention is in use). The standard Pullman-Standard variant is Drawer-Size-Sequence. (e.g. 501-E-21) (later the size indicated by the leading number, with a sequential number). SSC drawings are organized by drawer (which includes size) and sequence. Very similar. IF you have the data on the tubes. We do not. They are simply labeled by drawing range, and if we are lucky, year. NOT by size. We have been entering drawer, so were that needed, we can locate it. It is not in the caption information.Bob, Did Standard Steel Car NOT use a system of lot or order numbers? It seems to me this is the one piece of data that will quickly pull all the drawings for a particular car together, irregardless of the drawing numbering system. I suppose it's possible they didn't. Stranger things have happened; I recall one builder (Jackson and Sharp, IIRC) where each individual car had its own order number, similar to locomotive builder's numbers. Yet, if their drawings still existed, that number should allow reference to all the drawings that pertain to the car. Dennis Storzek
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Re: Standard Steel Drawing List
Schleigh Mike
Thank you for this work, Bob! And sharing your reality. From my view of the world you have there, I find what you have presented very helpful. Using this list, I have targeted another candidate for drawings and I readily found many of those you and Steve Hile recently extricated for me. I can see how what you have done will help find sources quicker. I also know from past experience that not everything is readily obvious as you dig deeper for details so some back-and-forth with the customer will likely always be a part of the search process. You have an incredible resource and I believe the list you have established will be helpful for future searches. Now, if only Pressed Steel Car drawings were so accessible. Regards from Grove City in western Penna. Mike Schleigh
On Friday, January 24, 2020, 09:31:41 AM EST, Bob Webber <rgz17@...> wrote:
Oh man, when I show this to the crew on Wednesday, are we
going to have some fun! I appreciate where you're coming from, and what you've done, but. Simple answer. NO! or HELL NO if you prefer. Look, 12 drawings - or 100 or 1000 does not an expert make. The list shown is a very minute subset. Your dozen drawings is an even smaller subset. We have a very clear idea how SSC drawings are organized - and it's not as you describe. They are most certainly arranged in a manner similar to Pullman (dep[ending on exactly WHICH drawing naming convention is in use). The standard Pullman-Standard variant is Drawer-Size-Sequence. (e.g. 501-E-21) (later the size indicated by the leading number, with a sequential number). SSC drawings are organized by drawer (which includes size) and sequence. Very similar. IF you have the data on the tubes. We do not. They are simply labeled by drawing range, and if we are lucky, year. NOT by size. We have been entering drawer, so were that needed, we can locate it. It is not in the caption information. Please note that the caption (which is that second column) is only a part of the metadata captured. We also put in a category, notes, author (which is drawer in this case), keywords and other data. Why isn't that on the list? Because that aspect of the database does not transport, and given the list - as is - took over 2 hours to create and clean up, I didn't put any of that in it. Standardization. Yes...a good idea, sort of. The problem is, in your limited access to them, you have missed about 15 variants of "arrangement" and many of "general". And, you are under the assumption, 1 person is entering the data, they are well versed on the subject, and that the SSC data block were standard. They were not. This list is here because it is a VERY minor subset of the drawings scanned. It represents less than 2% of drawings scanned. We scanned over 300 drawings Wednesday. Standard Motor Truck, Middleton Car, Pullman, Pullman-Standard. All have VERY different data blocks and order info blocks. What you ask is great - if it were even necessary. It is not. Just take Eric's database. done. Doesn't have enough information? Ask Eric to provide you with a spreadsheet with all the information in it and, when you come to volunteer, add to it. The reason we add the caption is not to find things the way you think we might, but we find drawings based on information supplied by the customer and/or Eric's list. Combined, that's usually enough to find the drawing. IF we have it. As I said - we work 1 6 hour shift (Nominally) per week. That shift must include scanning, annotation, conserving, document processing, drawing processing, customer fulfillment, photo & negative processing, maintenance work, taking out the garbage (to the dumpster 2 miles away), preparing for the upcoming move of the 2 million drawings, the photos, negs, film, movies, slides, aperture cards, documents, reports, etc. Now...you want to look - on screen - as we process 300 + drawings - for all of the information you desire. Why? Look...I am prepared to leave as curator within a few years. We have an opening for a volunteer. Just come out on every Wednesday (we don't accept excuses like storms delaying us - we come rain, sleet, snow, sun, etc. limo or no) from now till then, learn the collections, learn the processes, help with the move, etc. - and then take over as curator. It sounds as though you're qualified. Come on in. But...be prepared, it is, as the MASH doctors told Charles it's "meatball surgery". Our job is to get drawings to customers, internally and externally. And conserve what we can. That may mean anything from moving 15 cabinets full of donated maps one day, or simply cleaning the Library on another. Who knows what fun might happen!?! But by all means, contribute and you might find that you can not add all that data. You may want to. But there is no reason to reinvent the wheel. At 06:46 PM 1/23/2020, mark_landgraf via Groups.Io wrote: Bob,
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Re: Standard Steel Drawing List
Bob Webber
Oh man, when I show this to the crew on Wednesday, are we
going to have some fun!
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I appreciate where you're coming from, and what you've done, but. Simple answer. NO! or HELL NO if you prefer. Look, 12 drawings - or 100 or 1000 does not an expert make. The list shown is a very minute subset. Your dozen drawings is an even smaller subset. We have a very clear idea how SSC drawings are organized - and it's not as you describe. They are most certainly arranged in a manner similar to Pullman (dep[ending on exactly WHICH drawing naming convention is in use). The standard Pullman-Standard variant is Drawer-Size-Sequence. (e.g. 501-E-21) (later the size indicated by the leading number, with a sequential number). SSC drawings are organized by drawer (which includes size) and sequence. Very similar. IF you have the data on the tubes. We do not. They are simply labeled by drawing range, and if we are lucky, year. NOT by size. We have been entering drawer, so were that needed, we can locate it. It is not in the caption information. Please note that the caption (which is that second column) is only a part of the metadata captured. We also put in a category, notes, author (which is drawer in this case), keywords and other data. Why isn't that on the list? Because that aspect of the database does not transport, and given the list - as is - took over 2 hours to create and clean up, I didn't put any of that in it. Standardization. Yes...a good idea, sort of. The problem is, in your limited access to them, you have missed about 15 variants of "arrangement" and many of "general". And, you are under the assumption, 1 person is entering the data, they are well versed on the subject, and that the SSC data block were standard. They were not. This list is here because it is a VERY minor subset of the drawings scanned. It represents less than 2% of drawings scanned. We scanned over 300 drawings Wednesday. Standard Motor Truck, Middleton Car, Pullman, Pullman-Standard. All have VERY different data blocks and order info blocks. What you ask is great - if it were even necessary. It is not. Just take Eric's database. done. Doesn't have enough information? Ask Eric to provide you with a spreadsheet with all the information in it and, when you come to volunteer, add to it. The reason we add the caption is not to find things the way you think we might, but we find drawings based on information supplied by the customer and/or Eric's list. Combined, that's usually enough to find the drawing. IF we have it. As I said - we work 1 6 hour shift (Nominally) per week. That shift must include scanning, annotation, conserving, document processing, drawing processing, customer fulfillment, photo & negative processing, maintenance work, taking out the garbage (to the dumpster 2 miles away), preparing for the upcoming move of the 2 million drawings, the photos, negs, film, movies, slides, aperture cards, documents, reports, etc. Now...you want to look - on screen - as we process 300 + drawings - for all of the information you desire. Why? Look...I am prepared to leave as curator within a few years. We have an opening for a volunteer. Just come out on every Wednesday (we don't accept excuses like storms delaying us - we come rain, sleet, snow, sun, etc. limo or no) from now till then, learn the collections, learn the processes, help with the move, etc. - and then take over as curator. It sounds as though you're qualified. Come on in. But...be prepared, it is, as the MASH doctors told Charles it's "meatball surgery". Our job is to get drawings to customers, internally and externally. And conserve what we can. That may mean anything from moving 15 cabinets full of donated maps one day, or simply cleaning the Library on another. Who knows what fun might happen!?! But by all means, contribute and you might find that you can not add all that data. You may want to. But there is no reason to reinvent the wheel.
At 06:46 PM 1/23/2020, mark_landgraf via Groups.Io wrote:
Bob,
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Re: Wrecked car with interior details from 1948
Dennis Storzek
On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 04:37 AM, Brian Rochon wrote:
A milk tank car. Note the passenger type trucks and three torched off rectangles on the near end; these are the guides for the buffer springs, the buffer has been removed. These cars typically had two tanks with a small room between them to keep the loading connections clean; the room is accessed via the reefer style doors, and we are looking at the fack side of the wall where the exterior of the car has been ripped away. Dennis Storzek
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Wrecked car with interior details from 1948
Brian Rochon
From the Steamtown- Erie-Lackawanna site today. Car is described as a tank car, but exterior looks like a reefer. A milk reefer perhaps?
http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-01-24-20/16619.jpg
Brian Rochon
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Re: Car End Data
Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Friends, The late Richard Hendrickson penned a three part article on boxcar markings in RPC volumes 3-5, which explains much of this lettering. On page 11, V.4, he includes an AAR diagram dated 1940, which shows the ends to be clean except for the car reporting marks. That said, the practice of adding optional special equipment data by some railroads continued through the end of our period. One of the most common was for wheel descriptions: "WRT STL WHLS" or "1-W STL WHLS" (or variants), probably in case of repairs made off-line. Also common was spring travel as in "Spring 2 1/4 in Travel". I also note "Swivel Coupler" on some cars. These examples are shown in various builders' photos. Some of the lettering was probably not renewed upon repainting by certain roads, but might have been continued by others. Check your photos. Yours Aye, Garth Groff 🦆
On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 1:34 AM Dave Parker via Groups.Io <spottab=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote: The short (I hope) answer is that these "equipment lists" were first adopted by the MCB in 1896 as a Recommended Practice, and advanced to Standard 5 years later. Exactly what needed to be in the list evolved over time. By the late teens (at least), the list could be stenciled on either the sides or the ends of the cars. When the new ARA lettering standards were adopted on 1 March, 1927, the equipment list became optional, but it was recommended that these stencils be confined to the car ends. Presumably this was to eliminate clutter on the car sides in the face of the new requirement for dimensional data to the right of the door of house cars.
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Re: Car End Data
Dave Parker
The short (I hope) answer is that these "equipment lists" were first adopted by the MCB in 1896 as a Recommended Practice, and advanced to Standard 5 years later. Exactly what needed to be in the list evolved over time. By the late teens (at least), the list could be stenciled on either the sides or the ends of the cars. When the new ARA lettering standards were adopted on 1 March, 1927, the equipment list became optional, but it was recommended that these stencils be confined to the car ends. Presumably this was to eliminate clutter on the car sides in the face of the new requirement for dimensional data to the right of the door of house cars.
Some owners continued to stencil these lists on the car-ends into the 1930s, but many did not. It can often be hard to tell in photos of well-weathered cars with dirty ends. Hope this helps. -- Dave Parker Swall Meadows, CA
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Car End Data
radiodial868
Many of the decal sets for resin car kits include "Car End Data", stuff like 'Coupler End Shank 6x8', 'K-2 Triple Valve', 'Friction Draft Gear', 'Cast Steel Yoke', etc..
I see many proto pictures with no car end data, some with it (but unsure of the photo date). Let's face it, old pictures of car ends are less frequent than side views. What era were these used? RJ Dial Burlingame. CA
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Re: Standard Steel Drawing List
mark_landgraf
Bob,
Congrats on getting this far with the SSC drawings. I can sympathize with the effort involved. I'm currently scanning 30,000 8x10 builders photos negatives. It takes time. Based on the dozen SSC drawings in my collection, they do contain a bunch more data then you are showing. The upper right corner typically identifies the quantity of cars ordered and by what RR, and sometimes the road numbers. The title block has a date, please enter at least the year in one column and the whole date in another. This allows for a date range search, where as the whole dates search is very problematic. However the whole date is often helpful in gathering up the drawings for a specific car, since often all the drawings have the same date. I understand that the naming convention is not always equal, but in order to help finding things, there needs to be some standardization. In the spreadsheet I saw a lot of General Drawing. The generic car construction term is General Arrangement drawing, often abbreviated as GA. Underframe Arrangement is UF Brake Arrangement is BA The others, like End Arrangement, Side Arrangement, Top Arrangement, etc, are usually spelled out. If you know the weight or gallons capacity, please place that in another column If you know the road numbers please include them in another column From my limited knowledge of SSC drawings, the required drawings are usually clustered together, rather than in families, like PS, BLW, Alco. If there is a prior drawing that is referred to, please include that number in it's own column. Consider a column for Materials, ie, Wood, Composite or Steel Inside length would be helpful if known. When more columns are used, the Data Filter function can be used, and it saves a lot of time. It can also be used to find spelling errors and other irregularities. Like MoPac vs MP. No, I won't be at the bar CCB. My limo, with the big bag of cash, is stuck in a mid-west snow storm. Being able to find a 6500 gallon Tank car built between 1917 and 1919 for UTLX is a lot easier with the extra columns. I had to do this for a 50,000 unit locomotive roster. Believe me, now when I'm looking for a 0-6-0, meter gage that went to a Cuban sugar plantation in the 1920's, I only get a few hits. Keep up the good work.
Mark Landgraf
On Thursday, January 23, 2020, 4:20:57 PM EST, Bob Webber <rgz17@...> wrote:
I have an updated Standard Steel drawing list. This
list is both freight (from SS-0 - SS-99999) and Passenger (SS-100000 and
above).
It can be found here: http://www.pullmanlibrary.org/ FAQ:
All this is done by volunteers. Multiple volunteers. That means their input style is different, as is their spelling, abbreviations, etc. No kidding tho - the originals are rife with the same thing. Remember all this is supposed to happen with the work done in 1 6 hour day a week. We've added over 1000 Standard Steel drawings in the past 6 months. We have other work happening all the time, including preparing for the big move. And remember, just like that good old cook on the AT&SF - be careful what you criticize, you will be given the job! Bob Webber
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Re: NYC box car with a star on it
Seth Lakin
Tim wrote “ Later NYC cars had a yellow circle with a black "A" - is that basically the same thing?” Yes, a clean loading only car. Not necessarily grain loading only as many 50’ both single and double door boxcars were given the circled A. Seth
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Re: Painting color help
Eric Hansmann
Fred, I think those B&O gons were black through their service lives, even when they were BR&P cars.
Eric Hansmann Murfreesboro, TN
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of fred huss via Groups.Io
I'm working on 2 resin kits and about ready to paint but, not sure what colors to use.
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Standard Steel Drawing List
Bob Webber
I have an updated Standard Steel drawing list. This
list is both freight (from SS-0 - SS-99999) and Passenger (SS-100000 and
above).
It can be found here: http://www.pullmanlibrary.org/ FAQ:
All this is done by volunteers. Multiple volunteers. That means their input style is different, as is their spelling, abbreviations, etc. No kidding tho - the originals are rife with the same thing. Remember all this is supposed to happen with the work done in 1 6 hour day a week. We've added over 1000 Standard Steel drawings in the past 6 months. We have other work happening all the time, including preparing for the big move. And remember, just like that good old cook on the AT&SF - be careful what you criticize, you will be given the job! Bob Webber
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Re: Photo: UP/OSL Boxcar 18761
Dennis Storzek
On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 10:25 AM, Jeff wrote:
The description says the sign is "painted on" -Well, it is "painted on"... on the negative, that is. Dennis Storzek
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A Day at the Car Shops
Martin Skrzetuszewski
Hi All,
Just found this 53 minute plus, B&W film shot in 1951 in the NYC Despatch Car Shops showing boxcar construction. I have only watched 29 minutes so far but it looks good: https://videoplayer.telvue.com/player/FcqTL0OYMCGU6WlccUApyUL3twz4dm9V/media/456833 Enjoy! Best regards, Martin Skrzetuszewski London (England)
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Re: Photo: UP/OSL Boxcar 18761
Jeff
The description says the sign is "painted on" - but it looks like a nailed on banner, until you look at the nailheads and realize they are just black blobs in the same color as the sign wording.
On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 10:07 AM Richard Townsend via Groups.Io <richtownsend=netscape.net@groups.io> wrote:
--
Jeff Shultz http://www.shultzinfosystems.com A railfan approaches a grade crossing hoping that there will be a train.
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Re: Photo: UP/OSL Boxcar 18761
Richard Townsend
I think the banner was a fake, added by an artist to the photo or negative, not really on the car. Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb@...> To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Sent: Thu, Jan 23, 2020 9:30 am Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: UP/OSL Boxcar 18761 Same car before the banner was attached.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA
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Re: Photo: UP/OSL Boxcar 18761
Same car before the banner was attached. http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p15799coll170/id/35089/rec/2 Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA
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Painting color help
fred huss
I'm working on 2 resin kits and about ready to paint but, not sure what colors to use.
One model is 53'6" 51101-51600 series Southern Flat, the other is a B&O(ex BR&P) wood side gon which will be lettered for the B&O. I model early 1950s. Thanks for your consideration. Fred Huss
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Photo: UP/OSL Boxcar 18761
Photo: UP/OSL Boxcar 18761 Taken in 1931 at Los Angeles. http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p15799coll170/id/35517/rec/381 Use slider to enlarge photo. Promotional photo for Maxwell House Coffee. Banner reads "Straight Car". Anyone familiar with the term? Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA
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Re: ATSF BX-11,12, and13 rebuild question
Randy Hammill
Hi, James -
Somehow I missed this message earlier. To clarify: For the ATSF cars in this project we are doing:
Available with era specific details and painting and lettering for the life of the cars. In a future era, the Bx-12 classes rebuilt with steel sides '63-'64 appear to all have been two variations, one with a "plug" door as Bx-85 cars, and others with Transco siding, in class Bx-86. These cars are not included in this project...yet. We have to raise our initial funding before we consider adding anything else to the project. But these cars, along with some other variations of the PM/C&O cars are under consideration should we raise enough to cover the additional tooling. The rest of the cars currently in scope for this project: Box Cars
Auto Cars
Remember that we have a special 20% off deal for members of this list available here: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/2565226/x/22782899?secret_perk_token=00cefdf9 Join our community of Backers and let's make some models! Randy — Randy Hammill Prototype Junction http://prototypejunction.com Modeling the New Haven Railroad 1946-1954 http://newbritainstation.com
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