Date   

Re: Car End Data

Eric Hansmann
 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of np328
Sent: Monday, February 3, 2020 5:58 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Car End Data

 

As with Dick Harley, late in commenting. I took a broad look over some photos I have collected over time. And uploaded some below. 

Of these photos there is consistency (with the NP shop procedures) that not only the ends had data painted however even the truck bolsters can be seen in some of the photos having the car number painted on. To those who might talk of wheel bearings throwing oil out and obscuring the stenciling, the lettering is on the inside of the wheels where most of the spray might not land.

Will I be lettering the truck bolsters on all my NP cars? Decals in the correct sizing would be a challenge to find, so perhaps I will do a few resin kits.

On the prototype which should be the basis to study, there it was.

Notes:
NP 24798 - note on the truck bolster car number is clearly visible on this 1947 Laurel, MT kit-built car. (The shops assembled parts like doors and ends from builders, however crafted the sides and did the assembly.)
NP Covered hopper 75040, built 1951 at the NP Brainerd, MN shops. 
NP 84000 - yes the roof, ends, and even the coupler box is covered with aluminum paint, which makes the end data pretty visible. Cars were listed in the Mech. spec sheets as having aluminum paint to protect pigs from excessive heat. (Sides, trucks, underframe - BCR.)  In addition they had counter-balanced shutters that could be moved to enclose the car entirely in the winter climate local to the NP.  These cars were original NP 8000 series XMs of 1929 and rebuilt into this car in the photo in 1958. Roller bearings and snubbers on the trucks for a smooth ride. 
3309 Built 1-1960, so it barely fits in here with respect to this lists time frame.  End data is there. 

I have other photos from well beyond this lists time frame that shows on the NP, this practice continued. 

Last image - I am not sure if I posted this image prior. It is a response to a question from Lester Breuer that I may or may not have answered. The time frame covered by the letter affects the dates of some who model this and earlier eras here and so I will include it.

To sum up, the words of Garth Groff on check your photos seems to be the way to go.                                  Jim Dick - Roseville, MN 
  


Re: Car End Data

mopacfirst
 

Stenciling the reporting marks and number on the center sill is pretty visible on tank cars, and that data is almost always included in the tank car decals I've seen.  But I also recall it as being really useful when cars were downgraded to work service.  The original number often remained undisturbed in that case, so it was a great way to track where a car came from.  Too bad I didn't record more of those....

But in the steam era or a few years after, I don't recall ever seeing the car number stenciled on the outside of the truck frame.  I agree it was sometimes stenciled on at least one side of the bolster, but I'm not sure even how common that was.

Ron Merrick


Re: Car End Data

Jack Mullen
 

As several posters have noted, the practice of stencilling data on car ends didn't end after the requirement was dropped, but the content changed over time.  In the postwar steam era,  a quick review of builder's photos suggests that not all railroads used end data, but an apparent majority did.  Of those that did, most included wheel type, such as the common "1-W WROT STL WHLS" (which is seen in several different forms of abbreviation.)  Other items seem to be noted only when they differ from usual practice.  In the 40s and 50s, long travel springs seem to be listed most often, with specialty draft gear or foundation brake components seen occasionally. Roller bearings are seen stenciled on the end in one of the photos Jim Dick posted, but I seem to recall some railroads marking that data on the cars side near a truck.  
As another poster said, photos will be your best guide - when and if suitable views can be found.  Otherwise, don't sweat it.  From personal observation both of steam-era cars after the steam era as well as more modern cars, grime can obscure or obliterate such markings on cars in service.  It's also my impression that the data stenciling was often eliminated when cars were repainted.
Jack Mullen


Re: Vague question about a gondola

Rick Jesionowski
 

Clark,

I checked my C&NW Color Guide and in the 1970’s they picked up both the Betlehem (from C&EI and PC) and the ACF car from the PC.

Rick Jesionowski


Re: NKP BOXCAR COLORS

c.presler
 

When 8099 arrived at ITM the ends and underframe were black with the roof the same as the sides. That is how I repainted it. It had been parked at the Noblesville grain elevator at their request to hold supplies for grain doors. When we asked the office at Frankfort to move it, they were skeptical because their indicated their records showed it had been scrapped. I had to hand deliver a photo of the car with my '84 Camaro parked in front of it.

Despite Ray's comment. I tried to match paint to original samples or notes on blue prints. When preparing to paint NKP 1 I found Pullman green is a combination of black and orange and contains no green. All the lettering was redrawn in CAD from tracings of the real thing or original full size prints from Pete Shepard. In addition to the equipment  at  Noblesville, I provided full size prints, stencils and/or pdf files as requested for cabooses 141, 439, 451, 454, 475, and 479, locomotives 755 and 765, diesel 555 as well as City of Chicago and City of Lima. I have laid out the end stripes and cab sides for SD9 358. I gave a thumb drive with all of my files to Wayne York today.

We were told we could not leave the Baldwin diesel in US Navy paint or the 44 tonner as was from it's last owner due to liability issues, so I painted them as NKP 99 and 91 which never existed. A few railfans thought they were unknown NKP diesels, but I did explain that given the options. NKP paint was selected.

I also painted caboose C&O 90876 as NKP for a NKPH&TS convention since a few were purchased by the Nickel Plate, but that paint only lasted a few days.

E units and F's don't hold up because the side panels sit in a steel channel that acts as a scupper for water entering through the fans. When the drain holes get plugged the channel fills with water. The panels were ply-metal. which is plywood with steel sheet glued to it. You probably have seen the results.

Craig Presler
Noblesville


Re: Car End Data

Bob Webber
 

Often, the numbers and reporting marks were cast or 'welded' on frames, journals, etc.  Brakes, wheels, axles, battery boxes, batteries were all provided serial numbers stenciled or cast on.  The Pullman library has a lot of drawings for the various stencils of cylinders, trucks, and all other seemingly minor lettering.  

Sent from BlueMail

On Feb 3, 2020, at 6:59 PM, Edward <edb8381@...> wrote:
Having trucks stenciled with the reporting mark and car number was done for almost every car, especially those working interchange service.
While it identified particular trucks for a specific car, it was an important ID for any off road maintenance or repair work, as well as identifying trucks of cars in wrecks, where they often are separated.

Further, the reporting mark and car number is also stenciled on both sides of the center sill for the same reasons.
While we deal with freight cars here, passenger and express equipment was similarly marked on the trucks and center sills.

Sometimes there was a plate on a side of the center sill that schematically outlined the brake rigging, if it had a unusual or complex arrangement.

Each journal bearing was also marked with a number on the truck frames.
They would be numbered 1-4 for the four wheel truck at the A end of a car, and 5-8 for the companion truck at the "B" end.
My recollection is a bit fuzzy here but I think the left was odd numbers and the right side was even numbers, front to rear.
The same was done with 6 wheel and larger trucks as well.

Ed Bommer


Re: Car End Data

Edward
 

Having trucks stenciled with the reporting mark and car number was done for almost every car, especially those working interchange service.
While it identified particular trucks for a specific car, it was an important ID for any off road maintenance or repair work, as well as identifying trucks of cars in wrecks, where they often are separated.

Further, the reporting mark and car number is also stenciled on both sides of the center sill for the same reasons.
While we deal with freight cars here, passenger and express equipment was similarly marked on the trucks and center sills.

Sometimes there was a plate on a side of the center sill that schematically outlined the brake rigging, if it had a unusual or complex arrangement.

Each journal bearing was also marked with a number on the truck frames.
They would be numbered 1-4 for the four wheel truck at the A end of a car, and 5-8 for the companion truck at the "B" end.
My recollection is a bit fuzzy here but I think the left was odd numbers and the right side was even numbers, front to rear.
The same was done with 6 wheel and larger trucks as well.

Ed Bommer


Re: Car End Data

np328
 

As with Dick Harley, late in commenting. I took a broad look over some photos I have collected over time. And uploaded some below. 

Of these photos there is consistency (with the NP shop procedures) that not only the ends had data painted however even the truck bolsters can be seen in some of the photos having the car number painted on. To those who might talk of wheel bearings throwing oil out and obscuring the stenciling, the lettering is on the inside of the wheels where most of the spray might not land.

Will I be lettering the truck bolsters on all my NP cars? Decals in the correct sizing would be a challenge to find, so perhaps I will do a few resin kits.

On the prototype which should be the basis to study, there it was.

Notes:
NP 24798 - note on the truck bolster car number is clearly visible on this 1947 Laurel, MT kit-built car. (The shops assembled parts like doors and ends from builders, however crafted the sides and did the assembly.)
NP Covered hopper 75040, built 1951 at the NP Brainerd, MN shops. 
NP 84000 - yes the roof, ends, and even the coupler box is covered with aluminum paint, which makes the end data pretty visible. Cars were listed in the Mech. spec sheets as having aluminum paint to protect pigs from excessive heat. (Sides, trucks, underframe - BCR.)  In addition they had counter-balanced shutters that could be moved to enclose the car entirely in the winter climate local to the NP.  These cars were original NP 8000 series XMs of 1929 and rebuilt into this car in the photo in 1958. Roller bearings and snubbers on the trucks for a smooth ride. 
3309 Built 1-1960, so it barely fits in here with respect to this lists time frame.  End data is there. 

I have other photos from well beyond this lists time frame that shows on the NP, this practice continued. 

Last image - I am not sure if I posted this image prior. It is a response to a question from Lester Breuer that I may or may not have answered. The time frame covered by the letter affects the dates of some who model this and earlier eras here and so I will include it.

To sum up, the words of Garth Groff on check your photos seems to be the way to go.                                  Jim Dick - Roseville, MN 
  


Re: XM-1 braking rigging question

Eric Hansmann
 

Clark,

 

I sent this to the ResinFreightCarBuilders group and thought I should reply here for the curious.

 

You have the correct RPCyc, but look at an earlier page. Check out the diagram on page 10 for the XM-1 KC brake hardware arrangement. The rods and piping probably remained the same for the AB brake upgrades.

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Clark Propst
Sent: Monday, February 3, 2020 1:16 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] XM-1 braking rigging question

 

Bill just finished a M&StL XM-1 box car with a third brake lever. I'm building a Sunshine RI XM-1 now. Looking at the photo provided there appeared to be extra stuff under the car. So I added the extra lever following Bill's model photo. Then it dawned on me the proto photo had the K brake setup. I got out RP Cyc 18, it has builders photos of two cars, one is the same as in the instructions. The other in of a car from the last 200 built in the order. It appears to have 'normal' rigging.

Can someone help with my dilemma Please?
CW Propst
PS. Doesn't matter if I screwed up, I have the M&StL versions to build I can just swap underframes


Re: Car End Data

Dick Harley
 

I know I am late to this party, but felt that I should note that PFE, SP and UP continued equipment end lettering well into the 1970s and beyond.

The SP and PFE lettering is well documented in drawings and photos in the SPH&TS freight car painting & lettering book.
https://sphts.myshopify.com/collections/books/products/southern-pacific-freight-car-painting-and-lettering-guide

Some UP drawings are on my SmugMug site at :
https://harley-trains.smugmug.com/UP-PLN-FRT


Cheers,
Dick Harley
Laguna Beach,  CA


 


XM-1 braking rigging question

Clark Propst
 

Bill just finished a M&StL XM-1 box car with a third brake lever. I'm building a Sunshine RI XM-1 now. Looking at the photo provided there appeared to be extra stuff under the car. So I added the extra lever following Bill's model photo. Then it dawned on me the proto photo had the K brake setup. I got out RP Cyc 18, it has builders photos of two cars, one is the same as in the instructions. The other in of a car from the last 200 built in the order. It appears to have 'normal' rigging.

Can someone help with my dilemma Please?
CW Propst
PS. Doesn't matter if I screwed up, I have the M&StL versions to build I can just swap underframes


Re: Vague question about a gondola

Clark Propst
 

Thanks for the advise guys, much appreciated. When I past the info on to my friend he added he was only interested in the five local roads - CGW, CNW, M&StL, MILW, RI So, guess he's SOL.
CW Propst.


Re: NYO&W

James Brewer
 

There was another book written as well about the NYO&W.  It is titled O&W, the Long Life and Slow Death of the New York, Ontario & Western Ry., by William F. Helmer, published 1959 by Howell-North.  I am not sure where I found this book; this has been in my library for a long time.

Jim Brewer
Glenwood MD

On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 10:36 AM Frank Pearsall <plans@...> wrote:
Good morning:

As far as I know, Bob lives in the upstate N.Y. area  around or in Saratoga Springs. I talked to him several years ago.

He wrote a great hardcover book (350 plus pages), called “The New York, Ontario & Western Railway and the Dairy Industry in Central New York State." Published by Garrigues House Publishers  in 1995 (I think they’re gone).

The only current rolling stock I’ve seen lately are the Bowser 1200 series GLa Type 2-Bay Hoppers done several years ago.

Great railroad to model and we have the very active O&W Historical Society that published some great books about all aspects of the railway.

Frank A. Pearsall
Brevard, N.C.


On Feb 2, 2020, at 11:43 PM, Todd Sullivan via Groups.Io <sullivant41@...> wrote:

And Bob Mohowski, devoted O&W modeler, who is still probably lurking about in upstate New York.

Todd Sullivan
Rowlett, TX
_._,_._


Re: Diagrams: PFE Refrigerator Cars

Dick Harley
 

FWIW, the complete 1951 PFE Refrigerator Car Diagrams book (and other stuff) is available at :
https://harley-trains.smugmug.com/PFE-FRT-DATA


Cheers,
Dick Harley
Laguna Beach,  CA


Re: NYO&W

Frank Pearsall
 

Good morning:

As far as I know, Bob lives in the upstate N.Y. area  around or in Saratoga Springs. I talked to him several years ago.

He wrote a great hardcover book (350 plus pages), called “The New York, Ontario & Western Railway and the Dairy Industry in Central New York State." Published by Garrigues House Publishers  in 1995 (I think they’re gone).

The only current rolling stock I’ve seen lately are the Bowser 1200 series GLa Type 2-Bay Hoppers done several years ago.

Great railroad to model and we have the very active O&W Historical Society that published some great books about all aspects of the railway.

Frank A. Pearsall
Brevard, N.C.


On Feb 2, 2020, at 11:43 PM, Todd Sullivan via Groups.Io <sullivant41@...> wrote:

And Bob Mohowski, devoted O&W modeler, who is still probably lurking about in upstate New York.

Todd Sullivan
Rowlett, TX
_._,_._


Re: NKP BOXCAR COLORS

Ray Breyer
 

All in-service photos I have of the 8000-series boxcars and of the coke car conversions show BLACK ends.
The Pullman builder's photos and most in-service photos seem to indicate unpainted galvanized roofs. It does look like a few got black asphaltum painted roofs by the 1960s.

Ignore ALL photos of car 8099. Noblesville was never known for high-quality "restorations".

As for black ends on NKP boxcars: they were a pre-AMC standard, and were regularly found on their cars through 1964. Not all cars were painted with them, but they bulk were, including during repaints from the early 1920s on. As with any modeling project, refer to as many photos as possible.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



On Monday, February 3, 2020, 08:14:55 AM CST, Brian Carlson via Groups.Io <prrk41361@...> wrote:


I should have mentioned my paint colors were are built. Some cars did get FCC ends when repainted. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Feb 3, 2020, at 8:47 AM, al.kresse <water.kresse@...> wrote:


The NKP, Erie, PM and  C&O were all part of the Van Sweringen brother's empire at this time and had joint standards for lettering and painting.  Road specific fonts for none-data stencils were unique . . . i.e. like the PM's special "Q".  I believe the C&O had black ends at this time.  Research on AMC (Advisory Mechanical Committee) is spotty.  Some is at Clifton Forge. Don't know what Cleveland State U has.

I am too old to drive down to CF alone for research sessions these days.

Al Kresse
On February 2, 2020 at 10:27 PM WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...> wrote:



 


Re: NKP BOXCAR COLORS

Brian Carlson
 

I should have mentioned my paint colors were are built. Some cars did get FCC ends when repainted. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Feb 3, 2020, at 8:47 AM, al.kresse <water.kresse@...> wrote:


The NKP, Erie, PM and  C&O were all part of the Van Sweringen brother's empire at this time and had joint standards for lettering and painting.  Road specific fonts for none-data stencils were unique . . . i.e. like the PM's special "Q".  I believe the C&O had black ends at this time.  Research on AMC (Advisory Mechanical Committee) is spotty.  Some is at Clifton Forge. Don't know what Cleveland State U has.

I am too old to drive down to CF alone for research sessions these days.

Al Kresse
On February 2, 2020 at 10:27 PM WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...> wrote:



 


Re: NYO&W

Dennis Storzek
 

On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 05:04 AM, Craig Zeni wrote:
When the K brake ban was approaching, the road bought around 17 USRA two bays from the New Haven that were fitted with AB brakes as none - zero - of the O&W's cars had them.
Those must be the cars I've found photos of... battered black USRA twins with a simple "OW" and number in white, no name, no herald. Somehow the "ow" seems fitting.

Dennis Storzek


Re: NKP BOXCAR COLORS

al.kresse <water.kresse@...>
 

The NKP, Erie, PM and  C&O were all part of the Van Sweringen brother's empire at this time and had joint standards for lettering and painting.  Road specific fonts for none-data stencils were unique . . . i.e. like the PM's special "Q".  I believe the C&O had black ends at this time.  Research on AMC (Advisory Mechanical Committee) is spotty.  Some is at Clifton Forge. Don't know what Cleveland State U has.

I am too old to drive down to CF alone for research sessions these days.

Al Kresse

On February 2, 2020 at 10:27 PM WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...> wrote:



 


Re: NYO&W

Marty McGuirk
 

I've not seen many photos of NYO&W cars offline, but this is one I have seen - gondola 6366 in Sheldon Springs, Vermont in Sept 1941.

https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsa.8c07268/


Marty McGuirk

On February 3, 2020 at 8:04 AM Craig Zeni <@CraigZ> wrote:



On Feb 2, 2020, at 1:05 PM, main@RealSTMFC.groups.io wrote:

4c. NYO&W
From: David <jaydeet2001@...>
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2020 10:55:53 EST

O&W didn't have much to do after their anthracite traffic collapsed in the 1940s. The 7/50 ORER shows 234 hoppers, 35 gondolas, 34 box cars, and 11 flats; versus 2803 hoppers, 202 gondolas, 58 box cars, 25 stock cars, and 106 flats in January 1940.
As an on-and-off O&W modeler, 'hermit road' is a pretty decent description. Once the on-line anthracite mines played out / went bankrupt in 1937 the railroad (which held mortgages on those very mines) followed them into bankruptcy and never emerged, shutting down almost exactly 20 years later. The bankruptcy trustees took a different tact, working to make the O&W a bridge road between western connections and Maybrook Yard into New England. The haul was very short, the interchange at Coxton Yd with the LV tenuous with backing moves, and there was the other 2/3s of the railroad that managed to avoid every major population area.

To my knowledge, the O&W never owned a 40' box car of any type, let alone a steel box car. When the K brake ban was approaching, the road bought around 17 USRA two bays from the New Haven that were fitted with AB brakes as none - zero - of the O&W's cars had them.

Having said all that, it's a neat road to model. Camelbacks (double cabs in O&W parlance), some handsome 4-8-2s, and a diesel fleet that's bog easy to model with off the shelf FTs, F3s, and NW2s. The 5 GE 44 tonners are not in plastic, but W&R models did pretty little brass ones that run well. Short trains are kosher. Nickle Plate Products made most of the major steam classes though some require some hefty repowering. NPP and the Old & Weary Car Shops did cabeese; the latter did the drop bottom coal gons in brass...also available from F&C in resin.


Craig Zeni
Cary NC