Date   

Re: chlorine cannister flats (was Virginia Chemical Tank Cars)

Tim O'Connor
 


Thanks for that roster Ed!

The attached photo may be one of those mysterious USA cars. From the Gerstley duplicates.

Tim O'Connor


On 2/21/2020 1:33 PM, Ed Hawkins wrote:
On Feb 19, 2020, at 4:02 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

I have numerous photos of these cannister flat cars, and they are always loaded with
their cannisters. The precise style of cannisters does vary - perhaps related to the
commodity, or time period? They all have 15 cannisters in my photos.

Tim,
ACF wasn’t the only builder of cars of this type that were primarily used for chlorine containers. ACF records document the company built approximately 350 "Multi-Unit Tank Cars" from 1924 to 1958 comprised of 87 orders having lot numbers assigned. Roughly half of the cars were built before 1940 with the largest pre-1940 order being 16 cars.

Ten of these cars were built “for stock” for the U.S.A. Chief of Engineers. I don’t know the disposition of these lot 2370 cars built in July 1941. 

Six ACF builder photos of these cars are on the Barriger Flickr web site with 3/4-views & “B” end views of 3 of the earliest cars - lot 10, MALX 365; lot 188, VSX 204; lot 401, GWEX 4?? (angled view hides car number). 

List of ACF M-U tank cars by reporting marks to include the quantity of cars, number of orders, and range of build dates:
ACCX - 10 cars, 4 lots 1926-1935
ACF - 10 cars, 1 lot, built 1941 (U.S.A. Chief of Engineers)
BAKX - 2 cars, 2 lots 1931-1932
BCX - 7 cars, 3 lots 1926-1931
CACX (or possibly PPGX) - 21 cars, 2 lots 1936-1937
CALX - 3 cars, 3 lots 1927-1934
CILX (Canada) - 2 cars, 2 lots 1932, 1945
DAX - 23 cars, 11 lots 1928-1946
DUPX - 15 cars, 3 lots 1926-1933
GCX - 26 cars, 1 lot, built 1948
GWEX - 8 cars, 2 lots 1927-1928
HOKX - 8 cars, 2 lots 1925-1926
MALX - 10 cars, 1 lot, built 1925
MONX - 7 cars, 3 lots 1932-1936
PSMX - 32 cars, 12 lots 1924-1948
SHPX - 101 cars, 16 lots 1937-1948 (lessees - Westvaco, DuPont, Diamond Chemical, likely others)
SPX - 44 cars, 11 lots 1927-1948
TELX - 1 car, 1 lot, built 1930
TENX - 4 cars, 1 lot, built 1949 (for sulphur dioxide containers)
VSX - 15 cars, 5 lots 1924-1929
WCX - 1 car, 1 lot, built 1930? (unsure about this order)

Regards,
Ed Hawkins


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

Allen Cain
 

Looks like it could be wooden tank cars that were used to transport Vinegar and other such acidic products.  Attached is a couple of photos of these cars.  THe Speas Co Vinegar car looks the most like what you have in your photo.

Allen Cain


Re: chlorine cannister flats (was Virginia Chemical Tank Cars)

Tim O'Connor
 


Nice pictures!! I answered my own question about ACF building these. I forgot I had
photos of CC&F (Canadian Car & Foundry) and GATC (General American) cannister flats.
But most of them appear to be ACF cars.

Tim O'Connor




On 2/19/2020 6:36 PM, Allen Cain wrote:
Here are some pictures of the Chlorine canister cars along with one of the MTS model.  Note that in some you are seeing the top of the canister with the connection point and it some the domed bottom.

Allen Cain

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: REA questions

Tim O'Connor
 


That photo shows a troop sleeper, rebuilt as an ice refrigerator car.


On 2/19/2020 11:15 PM, naptownprr wrote:

Thanks.  I also didn't know that REA bought some used troop kitchen cars.


Jim Hunter


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2020 11:09 PM.
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [External] Re: [RealSTMFC] REA questions
 
On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 05:32 PM, naptownprr wrote:

So how were the cars lettered before 1953?

http://www.gregariousrailfan.com/images/REA_rail_car.jpg

Dennis


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: chlorine cannister flats (was Virginia Chemical Tank Cars)

Ed Hawkins
 

On Feb 19, 2020, at 4:02 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

I have numerous photos of these cannister flat cars, and they are always loaded with
their cannisters. The precise style of cannisters does vary - perhaps related to the
commodity, or time period? They all have 15 cannisters in my photos.

Tim,
ACF wasn’t the only builder of cars of this type that were primarily used for chlorine containers. ACF records document the company built approximately 350 "Multi-Unit Tank Cars" from 1924 to 1958 comprised of 87 orders having lot numbers assigned. Roughly half of the cars were built before 1940 with the largest pre-1940 order being 16 cars.

Ten of these cars were built “for stock” for the U.S.A. Chief of Engineers. I don’t know the disposition of these lot 2370 cars built in July 1941. 

Six ACF builder photos of these cars are on the Barriger Flickr web site with 3/4-views & “B” end views of 3 of the earliest cars - lot 10, MALX 365; lot 188, VSX 204; lot 401, GWEX 4?? (angled view hides car number). 

List of ACF M-U tank cars by reporting marks to include the quantity of cars, number of orders, and range of build dates:
ACCX - 10 cars, 4 lots 1926-1935
ACF - 10 cars, 1 lot, built 1941 (U.S.A. Chief of Engineers)
BAKX - 2 cars, 2 lots 1931-1932
BCX - 7 cars, 3 lots 1926-1931
CACX (or possibly PPGX) - 21 cars, 2 lots 1936-1937
CALX - 3 cars, 3 lots 1927-1934
CILX (Canada) - 2 cars, 2 lots 1932, 1945
DAX - 23 cars, 11 lots 1928-1946
DUPX - 15 cars, 3 lots 1926-1933
GCX - 26 cars, 1 lot, built 1948
GWEX - 8 cars, 2 lots 1927-1928
HOKX - 8 cars, 2 lots 1925-1926
MALX - 10 cars, 1 lot, built 1925
MONX - 7 cars, 3 lots 1932-1936
PSMX - 32 cars, 12 lots 1924-1948
SHPX - 101 cars, 16 lots 1937-1948 (lessees - Westvaco, DuPont, Diamond Chemical, likely others)
SPX - 44 cars, 11 lots 1927-1948
TELX - 1 car, 1 lot, built 1930
TENX - 4 cars, 1 lot, built 1949 (for sulphur dioxide containers)
VSX - 15 cars, 5 lots 1924-1929
WCX - 1 car, 1 lot, built 1930? (unsure about this order)

Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: Fw: [RealSTMFC] Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

Charles Peck
 

I seem to remember seeing a similar picture years ago. It was undersea
telegraph or telephone cable.  It was wound spool to spool to spool and
continued across from car to car in one long continuous length.
Uncoupling levers had been removed, as I recall.
Chuck Peck

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 12:53 PM Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;) <claus@...> wrote:
Hi Andy and List Members,
 
Andy wrote: "Details aren't clear enough to tell what kind of loads these are, but there's 2 per car"
 
It is true the details are not clear enough, but to my eyes it looks like there are eight per car, arranged 4 long by 2 wide. each of the eight load items appears to have the wood secured with two dark black bands
 
Enjoy!
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

Here's an enlargement of 2 of the mystery load cars. Details aren't clear enough to tell what kind of loads these are, but there's 2 per car.
Andy Jackson
Santa Fe Springs CA



Fw: [RealSTMFC] Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Andy and List Members,
 
Andy wrote: "Details aren't clear enough to tell what kind of loads these are, but there's 2 per car"
 
It is true the details are not clear enough, but to my eyes it looks like there are eight per car, arranged 4 long by 2 wide. each of the eight load items appears to have the wood secured with two dark black bands
 
Enjoy!
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

Here's an enlargement of 2 of the mystery load cars. Details aren't clear enough to tell what kind of loads these are, but there's 2 per car.
Andy Jackson
Santa Fe Springs CA



Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

Bob Webber
 

Garth, they still dig up redwood pipes in Chicago.   There are likely hundreds of installations still (mostly) intact.  They are a good (if you can get around the waste and ecological issues) "pipes".  

Wood survives a lot longer in some areas.  Telegraph poles from the 1880s are still to be found around Marshall Pass on the D&RG.   Flumes can also be found in this and other areas.  And the first long distance transmission line was in Western Colorado along the RGS - requiring flumes, poles, cross arms, etc.    Dense old growth wood can stand up to the elements incredibly well, as compared to newer growth wood.

At 10:23 AM 2/21/2020, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford wrote:
Friends,

The idea of these being redwood pipes now makes more sense than spools of wire. Even more sense when I remembered that there once was a factory near Antioch, California on the ATSF that made redwood pipes.Â

And lookie what I found:

https://www.mendorailhistory.org/1_redwoods/redwood_pipes.htm

http://www.sandiegoyesterday.com/?tag=redwood-pipe . This one is big enough to be one of the pipes on the flat cars.

https://www.citylab.com/design/2016/10/san-francisco-1939-worlds-fair-relic-discovered-construction/505076/ Â

Some of these systems endured for years. Although not redwood, you can still see miles of wooden flumes that fed several PG&E powerhouses along the Truckee River between Truckee and Reno from the windows of the California Zephyr. I think those flumes are all dead now, but they were still being maintained into the late 20th century.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff  🦆

Bob Webber


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Friends,

The idea of these being redwood pipes now makes more sense than spools of wire. Even more sense when I remembered that there once was a factory near Antioch, California on the ATSF that made redwood pipes. 

And lookie what I found:


http://www.sandiegoyesterday.com/?tag=redwood-pipe . This one is big enough to be one of the pipes on the flat cars.


Some of these systems endured for years. Although not redwood, you can still see miles of wooden flumes that fed several PG&E powerhouses along the Truckee River between Truckee and Reno from the windows of the California Zephyr. I think those flumes are all dead now, but they were still being maintained into the late 20th century.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff  🦆


On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 10:49 AM Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:
Ron, and All;

To add:  After the Loma Prieta earthquake, I was assigned to damage assessment in the Santa Cruz mountains outside Santa Cruz, CA.  Even at that late date, there were water districts that had redwood water tanks and redwood water lines, that I assessed damage to, and wrote up for FEMA funding for repair.  They were remarkably durable, unlike concrete or masonry.  One large redwood tank above Scotts Valley, had slid partly off its foundation, but still had most of its water inside.  Remarkable.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of mopacfirst
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 10:32 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

That's the most plausible explanation I've heard so far.

Comparing the load to the flatcar says these things are about 4', maybe 4'-6" max, in diameter.  That's a reasonable size for water piping.  Two to a car longitudinally says they're 20' long more or less, which was and is a common length for joints of pipe.

I found a 1942 catalog of wood pipe which claimed extensive use, even at that date.  The war probably boosted its use a bit.   Blockedhttp://www.waterworkshistory.us/tech/Pipe/1942WoodPipe.pdf
Not incidentally, they also built water tanks, which if I recall correctly had some use on railroads when they used those external combustion locomotives.

I also ran across this photo -- Blockedhttp://www.waterworkshistory.us/tech/Pipe/1942WoodPipe.pdf

Ron Merrick, piping engineer





Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Ron, and All;

To add: After the Loma Prieta earthquake, I was assigned to damage assessment in the Santa Cruz mountains outside Santa Cruz, CA. Even at that late date, there were water districts that had redwood water tanks and redwood water lines, that I assessed damage to, and wrote up for FEMA funding for repair. They were remarkably durable, unlike concrete or masonry. One large redwood tank above Scotts Valley, had slid partly off its foundation, but still had most of its water inside. Remarkable.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of mopacfirst
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 10:32 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

That's the most plausible explanation I've heard so far.

Comparing the load to the flatcar says these things are about 4', maybe 4'-6" max, in diameter. That's a reasonable size for water piping. Two to a car longitudinally says they're 20' long more or less, which was and is a common length for joints of pipe.

I found a 1942 catalog of wood pipe which claimed extensive use, even at that date. The war probably boosted its use a bit. Blockedhttp://www.waterworkshistory.us/tech/Pipe/1942WoodPipe.pdf
Not incidentally, they also built water tanks, which if I recall correctly had some use on railroads when they used those external combustion locomotives.

I also ran across this photo -- Blockedhttp://www.waterworkshistory.us/tech/Pipe/1942WoodPipe.pdf

Ron Merrick, piping engineer


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

mopacfirst
 

That's the most plausible explanation I've heard so far.

Comparing the load to the flatcar says these things are about 4', maybe 4'-6" max, in diameter.  That's a reasonable size for water piping.  Two to a car longitudinally says they're 20' long more or less, which was and is a common length for joints of pipe.

I found a 1942 catalog of wood pipe which claimed extensive use, even at that date.  The war probably boosted its use a bit.   http://www.waterworkshistory.us/tech/Pipe/1942WoodPipe.pdf
Not incidentally, they also built water tanks, which if I recall correctly had some use on railroads when they used those external combustion locomotives.

I also ran across this photo -- http://www.waterworkshistory.us/tech/Pipe/1942WoodPipe.pdf

Ron Merrick, piping engineer


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Help with freight car list

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Thank you, Doug! Very helpful!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Doug Chapman via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 9:34 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Help with freight car list

Elden,

NYC 43267 was a 50 ton, 40' box car, built by Despatch Shop in 1956, NYC Lot 858B. It was one of 1390 cars numbered 42000-43389. The drawing below comes from Terry Link's Canada Southern <Blockedhttp://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-FREIGHT.htm> website.

Doug Chapman
Montclair, VA
<Blockedhttp://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-858.jpg>


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

They look like sections of redwood pipe to me. They were common in California back in the days before they switched to concrete pipe, for water transmission.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Andy Jackson
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 10:35 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

Here's an enlargement of 2 of the mystery load cars. Details aren't clear enough to tell what kind of loads these are, but there's 2 per car.
Andy Jackson

Santa Fe Springs CA


Re: Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

tyesac@aol.com <tyesac@...>
 

They appear to have wheels under each one, so, I wonder if these are something like a towed pneumatic compressor, or a heavy duty hydraulic pump.  Sunshine had a kit load for something like these, however those were single axle carts covered by square wooden shipping hoods.   A modeler would be able to create a similar looking load by just modeling the tires,wheels, axles tow hitch with some kind of plank hood.  Correct AAR blocking & tie downs would make it more convincing.   Signage painted on the plank covering would be a mystery for now though, beyond a "do not hump" placard.

Tom Casey


-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Metoyer <mmetoyer@...>
To: main <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Sent: Thu, Feb 20, 2020 10:03 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

The location appears to be Frost, immediately after the flyover, so this train is eastbound. What businesses in the LA area would ship something like this?

Matthew Metoyer
Santa Maria CA

On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:44 PM Greg Martin via Groups.Io <TGREGMRTN=AOL.COM@groups.io> wrote:
I guess it really doesn't matter if you simply built them and use them as an open load., does it. great conversation piece. Could be just about any round load.

Greg Martin

Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean



Sent from AOL Desktop
In a message dated 2/20/2020 11:27:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io writes:

Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads
A photo from the Kansas Historical Society:
Click on the photo to enlarge it, then click on the "Enlarge" button to further enlarge it.
Caption: "Atchison, Topeka, & Santa Fe manifest train (a fast freight train hauling perishables or livestock) with caboose ATSF 1810 bringing up the rear of the train. This photograph was taken in the high desert of California near the Mohave River near Victorville, California by R. C. Bradley for AT&SF."
Does anyone know what are the loads on the six flat cars ahead of the three tank cars?
Thanks.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA

--
Hey Boss,


Somehow I got deleted from this group in late May. I guess someone didn't like me. Jail is a lonely place.

Greg Martin 


Re: Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

Matthew Metoyer
 

The location appears to be Frost, immediately after the flyover, so this train is eastbound. What businesses in the LA area would ship something like this?

Matthew Metoyer
Santa Maria CA

On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:44 PM Greg Martin via Groups.Io <TGREGMRTN=AOL.COM@groups.io> wrote:
I guess it really doesn't matter if you simply built them and use them as an open load., does it. great conversation piece. Could be just about any round load.

Greg Martin

Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean



Sent from AOL Desktop
In a message dated 2/20/2020 11:27:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io writes:

Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

A photo from the Kansas Historical Society:

https://www.kansasmemory.org/item/51765

Click on the photo to enlarge it, then click on the "Enlarge" button to further enlarge it.

Caption: "Atchison, Topeka, & Santa Fe manifest train (a fast freight train hauling perishables or livestock) with caboose ATSF 1810 bringing up the rear of the train. This photograph was taken in the high desert of California near the Mohave River near Victorville, California by R. C. Bradley for AT&SF."

Does anyone know what are the loads on the six flat cars ahead of the three tank cars?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


--
Hey Boss,


Somehow I got deleted from this group in late May. I guess someone didn't like me. Jail is a lonely place.

Greg Martin 


Re: Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

Greg Martin
 

I guess it really doesn't matter if you simply built them and use them as an open load., does it. great conversation piece. Could be just about any round load.

Greg Martin

Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean



Sent from AOL Desktop

In a message dated 2/20/2020 11:27:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, chiefbobbb@... writes:

Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

A photo from the Kansas Historical Society:

https://www.kansasmemory.org/item/51765

Click on the photo to enlarge it, then click on the "Enlarge" button to further enlarge it.

Caption: "Atchison, Topeka, & Santa Fe manifest train (a fast freight train hauling perishables or livestock) with caboose ATSF 1810 bringing up the rear of the train. This photograph was taken in the high desert of California near the Mohave River near Victorville, California by R. C. Bradley for AT&SF."

Does anyone know what are the loads on the six flat cars ahead of the three tank cars?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


--
Hey Boss,


Somehow I got deleted from this group in late May. I guess someone didn't like me. Jail is a lonely place.

Greg Martin 


Re: Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

 

Here's an enlargement of 2 of the mystery load cars. Details aren't clear enough to tell what kind of loads these are, but there's 2 per car.
Andy Jackson
Santa Fe Springs CA



Re: Help with freight car list

Doug Chapman
 

Elden,

NYC 43267 was a 50 ton, 40' box car, built by Despatch Shop in 1956, NYC Lot 858B. It was one of 1390 cars numbered 42000-43389. The drawing below comes from Terry Link's Canada Southern website.

Doug Chapman
Montclair, VA


Re: Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

Brad Andonian
 

They seem like racks of ties that fit into retorts for creosoting..


Re: Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

Paul Woods <paul@...>
 

Hi Folks

A clue to the nature of the loads lies in the wood sheathing; whatever it is requires substantial protection from mechanical damage.  Spools of wire makes good sense, especially if it is something like high-tension electrical cable which does not have insulation.  High quality steel cable such as used with cranes and elevators is another possibility.  A long shot would be specially finished metal liners for a very large diesel engine as found in ships, or maybe the sleeves used in large bearings.  Having worked as a mechanical engineer designing ships, I have seen cylinder liners larger than what would fit in those wood drums, and overseen the manufacture of bearings nearly that big for tugboats' towing winches.  However, I would have thought that steel cable or cylinder liners would require protection from water so they would be in a boxcar or at least covered with tarpaulins, so my money is on electrical cable because copper won't corrode much during the journey.

Whatever is inside, those drums make a great load for a flatcar!

Regards
Paul Woods

Whangarei, NZ.
NYCSHS #7172

18661 - 18680 of 188699