Date   

Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar

Todd Sullivan
 

Hi Jeff,

I'm going to offer some hunches, and I'll probably be corrected in due course! 

The boxcar interior first.  When I was at the NPTCo in the early 1960s, that car would have been classified by the car inspectors as being suitable for rough freight.  The interior lining is incomplete, and the lining (boards) that do exist are in rough shape.  Barrels are rough freight, in that they don't need a smooth lining to protect the product/lading, so the car's condition and the load are matched.  That doesn't explain why the lining boards seem to be missing at the bottom and near the top of the sides, but maybe that's the way the car's owner equipped the car.  That's not common for boxcars, BTW.  Looking at the blocking (dunnage) to keep the barrels in place, it occurred to me that perhaps the car is in dedicated service, as the lining boards are at the correct height to nail the blocking.

The 5 rings or hooks on both sides of the car by the doors could have been used to hang tarps or other primitive load-restraining devices (ropes?) to keep the lading from shifting toward the door openings.  They are probably not hooks for the workers' coats!

The device on the car end with the chain attached could be a vent, but it really doesn't look like that.  So, that's a puzzle beyond my knowledge.

Todd Sullivan


Re: Priming w/Yellow

Tim O'Connor
 


Thank you Bill!


On 3/17/2020 11:21 AM, Bill Welch wrote:
Badger’s Primers and Modelflex line of paints rarely if ever require reduction so “no" for that question.

I am spraying at 20 PSI w/Badger 155 siphon AB and .75mm needlle/nozzle combo. With Gravity feed suggest 15 PSI.

Bill Welch

On Mar 17, 2020, at 9:44 AM, TIMOTHY <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Nice.

Straight out of the bottle or diluted? What psi? (I rarely use acrylics)

Tim



-----Original Message-----

From: fgexbill@...
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: 2020-03-16 6:53:57 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Priming w/Yellow

Just primed my M-K-T company built War Emergency boxcar w/Badger's Neutral Yellow primer.

Bill Welch

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar

Aley, Jeff A
 

In the first photo (link reproduced here: https://tessa.lapl.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/photos/id/100971/rec/1247 ), I see a series of at least 5 rings where the car side meets the roof.  What are they?

I also see something at the peak of the end (a rectangular plate with maybe a chain dangling from it?).  What is that?

Finally, in my ignorance, I am surprised that the lining of the car side does not go all the way to the floor. Are boxcars commonly built this way?

 

Thanks,

 

-Jeff

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2020 9:44 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar

 

Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar

An undated photo from the Los Angeles City Public Library:

https://tessa.lapl.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/photos/id/100971/rec/1247

Caption: "Barrels of liquor are stacked in a railroad car, ready to be transported. The number 1 is written on the top of each barrel."

A good view of how these barrels were secured in a boxcar. It's possible these are beer barrels as they appear to be the same kind of barrels as shown in this photo, although the boxcar is not the same one:

https://tessa.lapl.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/photos/id/103564/rec/16

Caption: "One man brings a barrel of Los Angeles Brewing Co. beer as two men roll the barrel on a railroad car. The barrels are stacked into the railroad car and later transported."

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)

Nolan Hinshaw
 

On Mar 17, 2020, at 20:37, Richard Townsend via Groups.Io <richtownsend=netscape.net@groups.io> wrote:

Fine china sometimes was shipped i barrels, padded with excelsior.
This suggests a rail/marine scene, as in the 19th and early 20th centuries China came to North America in the holds of ships, packed just like that. Visit the 1886 steel sailing ship Balclutha[0] at the only floating national park in the US[1] to see an example.

[0] Connell & Sons, Glasgow
[1] San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park: <http://www.nps.gov/safr/>;
--
"Honor is a mere scutcheon."
John Falstaff, Henry IV Part 1
V.i.129–139


Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet

John King
 

Fran,

 

The attached spreadsheet is an excerpt from a much larger spreadsheet compiled by the late Tim Gilbert of through trains between Potomac Yard and Monroe Virginia.    Most of the gons were in through service between Potomac Yard  (4) and Monroe (165).  I have highlighted the few local cars in yellow.    There is a nice interesting variety here.   Any of them could have occasionally wound up on the B&O Shenandoah Subdivision.

 

I’m familiar with the branch line you are modeling.   The interchanges on the B&O’s Shenandoah Sub had very little use as through routes.   The tariffs I have show the interchange for traffic on the B&O between the west and the Southern as Potomac Yard.   The only routes via Strasburg Jct. were for traffic to and from stations on Southern’s Harrisonburg Branch or traffic to or from stations on the B&O’s Shenandoah Sub.      Through traffic from the N&W generally was interchanged on the main line at Shenandoah Jct., not Charlestown but there might be the occasional carload of coal in a gondola. 

 

That pretty much limits us to what might be delivered to a station on the Shenandoah Sub. or the occasional interchange car to the Southern. 

 

There were lots of B&O container gons to the lime and dolomite plants.    Unfortunately, there is no current model available for the 50 foot B&O O-27B cars used with the containers. 

 

John King

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Fran Giacoma
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2020 11:07 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Adjusting the gondola fleet

 

Thanks for all the replies. As info, I am doing this same project with the flat cars on my layout so I will use the results here with them also.

 

Clyde - great idea looking at photos of trains. They, like conductors reposts are rare for my sub-division, but will keep on looking for them.

 

Jack - that table is exactly what I was looking for. Even though it is 1953, It will give me a good starting point to go further with this project. I definitely will go back to my ORER and look at the top 10 fleets and also examine the “friendly” interchanges with the B&O on and off this sub-division.

 

Todd - thanks for turning me on to the recapitulation list for each railroad; just found them in my ORER! This saves a lot of time looking up and adding numbers. I have my list of industries and the type of cars they use; I am constant refining it as I acquire more info, which is an ongoing pursuit. 

 

I started this project this past weekend as the wife and I are “social distancing”. Being retired and all my volunteer gigs are cancelled this week and next, I have a lot of time to operate and work on the layout. Projects like these are most enjoyable and keep my brain active.

 

Thanks again!

 

Fran Giacoma


Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet

Fran Giacoma
 

Thanks for all the replies. As info, I am doing this same project with the flat cars on my layout so I will use the results here with them also.

 

Clyde - great idea looking at photos of trains. They, like conductors reposts are rare for my sub-division, but will keep on looking for them.

 

Jack - that table is exactly what I was looking for. Even though it is 1953, It will give me a good starting point to go further with this project. I definitely will go back to my ORER and look at the top 10 fleets and also examine the “friendly” interchanges with the B&O on and off this sub-division.

 

Todd - thanks for turning me on to the recapitulation list for each railroad; just found them in my ORER! This saves a lot of time looking up and adding numbers. I have my list of industries and the type of cars they use; I am constant refining it as I acquire more info, which is an ongoing pursuit. 

 

I started this project this past weekend as the wife and I are “social distancing”. Being retired and all my volunteer gigs are cancelled this week and next, I have a lot of time to operate and work on the layout. Projects like these are most enjoyable and keep my brain active.

 

Thanks again!

 

Fran Giacoma


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)

Mont Switzer
 

Tim,

 

I don’t think it has much affect.  Depending on the size of the drums, they fit nicely on a pallet, which was easier to handle.  Four 55 gallon steel drums fit nicely onto a 48 inch pallet.

 

There is also a “gizmo” that allows a forklift to attach itself directly to a 55 gallon steel drum, one or two at a time for floor loading.

 

The way I read all of this the pallet didn’t show up until after cement  was no longer shipped in barrels, though.

 

Mont

 

Montford L. Switzer

President

Switzer Tank Lines, Inc.

Fall Creek Leasing, LLC.

mswitzer@...

(765) 836-2914

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2020 9:51 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)

 

So the fork lift and the wood pallet doomed most barrel use?

Tim O'


-----Original Message-----

From: destorzek@...
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: 2020-03-17 11:16:56 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)

Lots of things used to be shipped in barrels at one time. Another example would be nails, which used to come in small size barrels called kegs. Last time I saw a nail keg was in the sixties while in high school. The wood shop instructor and I were down in the basement under the shops looking for some hardwood planks for a project, and off to the side was a row of kegs with different size nails. The typical high school wood shop doesn't use many nails, and now I'm wondering if these were still from the original stock-up order from when the school was built in the thirties.

Railroad spikes and track bolts still come in kegs, although the modern version are short steel drums. For that matter, a lot of smaller foundry product was shipped in barrels at one time; barrels are stronger than crates, and easier to move by hand.

Strangest one I remember was receiving several factory type lunchroom tables manufactured by the Chicago Hardware Foundry back about 1975, and the leg castings and swing arms for the seats were packed in fiberboard drums, which are also a modern derivative of the barrel. Traditional practices die hard.

Dennis Storzek


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)

George Eichelberger
 

I do not have access to the file in the SRHA archives right now but the Southern Railway file on the construction of Fontana Dam in Western NC describes the railroad carried many thousands (20+?) of box car loads of bagged cement on the Murphy Branch (partially relocated because of the dam) 1942-44.

Ike


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)

Tim O'Connor
 

So the fork lift and the wood pallet doomed most barrel use?

Tim O'


-----Original Message-----

From: destorzek@...
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: 2020-03-17 11:16:56 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)

Lots of things used to be shipped in barrels at one time. Another example would be nails, which used to come in small size barrels called kegs. Last time I saw a nail keg was in the sixties while in high school. The wood shop instructor and I were down in the basement under the shops looking for some hardwood planks for a project, and off to the side was a row of kegs with different size nails. The typical high school wood shop doesn't use many nails, and now I'm wondering if these were still from the original stock-up order from when the school was built in the thirties.

Railroad spikes and track bolts still come in kegs, although the modern version are short steel drums. For that matter, a lot of smaller foundry product was shipped in barrels at one time; barrels are stronger than crates, and easier to move by hand.

Strangest one I remember was receiving several factory type lunchroom tables manufactured by the Chicago Hardware Foundry back about 1975, and the leg castings and swing arms for the seats were packed in fiberboard drums, which are also a modern derivative of the barrel. Traditional practices die hard.

Dennis Storzek


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar

Malcolm H. Houck
 

Barrels for cement were indeed very common and the Rosendale Consolidated Cement Company (Rosendale NY) shipped over 100 paper -lined barrels of cement per day in the early days of the last century. Interestingly that need created an entire sub-set enterprise of barrel manufacture, leading to the development of mechanization of the barrel manufacture; -- machining the croze in the staves, jigs for assembling the bottoms and lids. specialty machinery for milling the staves and, lastly (among other things) an assembly machine to grasp and close the staves while the steel hoops were slid and pressed over the staves.

Mal Houck


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)

Bob Chaparro
 

Well, Doug's chart certainly explains the dearth of cement barrel photos.

As to overall cement shipments, here is a chart of a sampling of cement shipments from the Modeling the CNW in Milwaukee, 1957 Blog.

Chart Caption: "It turns out that with very minor exceptions, the portland cement traffic travelled in box cars or in special cars. In 1950 the majority of the traffic was in box cars, but by the end of the decade the situation was reversed and special cars were carrying the majority of the traffic."

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: C&O 40' 1930 Automobile Boxcar

Randy Hammill
 

   Well, if we're going to discuss swimming up river against a good current, ancient Greek writers complained about writing on the walls, and there is plenty of Roman graffiti on the walls at Pompeii. It ain't exactly a new observation.


Romani ite domum




Randy Hammill
Prototype Junction
http://prototypejunction.com

Modeling the New Haven Railroad 1946-1954
http://newbritainstation.com


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)

Richard Townsend
 

Fine china sometimes was shipped i barrels, padded with excelsior.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)

Dennis Storzek
 

Lots of things used to be shipped in barrels at one time. Another example would be nails, which used to come in small size barrels called kegs. Last time I saw a nail keg was in the sixties while in high school. The wood shop instructor and I were down in the basement under the shops looking for some hardwood planks for a project, and off to the side was a row of kegs with different size nails. The typical high school wood shop doesn't use many nails, and now I'm wondering if these were still from the original stock-up order from when the school was built in the thirties.

Railroad spikes and track bolts still come in kegs, although the modern version are short steel drums. For that matter, a lot of smaller foundry product was shipped in barrels at one time; barrels are stronger than crates, and easier to move by hand.

Strangest one I remember was receiving several factory type lunchroom tables manufactured by the Chicago Hardware Foundry back about 1975, and the leg castings and swing arms for the seats were packed in fiberboard drums, which are also a modern derivative of the barrel. Traditional practices die hard.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)

Douglas Harding
 

There is a photo of a cement barrel on this site: http://northampton.thelehighvalleypress.com/2019/07/10/remembering-coplay-cement-company-progress-industry

 

What does a barrel of cement weight? There are approximately 4 bags of regular cement to a barrel or, the weight of 376 lbs.

 

Cement was shipped in covered hoppers beginning in the 50's. Prior to the use of covered hoppers, cement was shipped in boxcars, in barrels, bags, or even loose. Can you image shoveling out a boxcar of loose cement? Andrews Concrete Products of Mason City, received bulk cement via rail, ie boxcars and later covered hoppers from the Lehigh and Northwestern States plants, which were less than four miles away. Andrews sits just north of the M&StL Engine House/Turntable area in Mason City. The floor in the engine house was poured with "leftovers" from the Redi-mix trucks returning to Andrews for refills.

 

Here is a page from a government study. It mentions cement shipped in steel drums and wood barrels, as well as bulk and bags.

 

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 7:15 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)

 

 

My guess is most barrels for cement were a size known as a tierce, which is about 42 gallons. This is the size of a barrel of petroleum or salt. A 42-gallon barrel of salt would weigh about 400 pounds.

 

Tight cooperage was used for liquids and was made from straight, knotless white oak. Beer barrels had the most demanding standards. They had to hold both pressure and liquid, so they were lined with pitch and made of thicker and choicer wood.

 

Slack cooperage used less choice wood and held dry items such as fruit and cement.

 

I am still searching for a photo of a barrel of cement.

 

Bob Chaparro

 

Hemet, CA

 


Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet

Todd Sullivan
 

Hi Fran,
I checked in my January 1952 ORER (I model 1952), and most large railroads' listings have a "Recapitulation of Car Equipment" at the end of the main listings of cars by number series.  The Recapitulation summarizes the railroad's cars by AAR class (X = boxcars, G = gondolas, etc.) by (interior) length, and it also gives the number of cars of that length, the each car group's cubic foot capacity and the capacity in pounds.  While this doesn't give you quite the summary you were looking for, it is another starting point.

I usually tackle problems such as yours by listing the RRs on each end of the segment I model and the industries they served that are of interest.  (In this case, the industries that ship or receives stuff in gons.)  For example, I know that the B&O served the big steel mill at Sparrows Point, so having some idea of what that mill produced would help.  If it produced rolled structural steel shapes, then (mostly) B&O mill gondolas from 41' to 65' long would be appropriate.  Pipe or steel plate requires different gons.  As another for instance, if the mill used scrap steel as part of its raw material, then shorter gons from RRs to the west and south with scrap loads make sense.  I suspect you get the drift.

Rather than trying to do this all at once and get it perfect (impossible for most of us mortals), I'd suggest doing a study of your connecting and neighboring RRs, then researching the industries they served (Google and Wikipedia are your friends), going through those RRs' Recapitulation listings in the ORER, and do some thoughtful estimating.  That could give you a reasonable beginning fleet of gondolas.  As time goes on, you'll probably come across more information that will help you grow your understanding, and you can modify your fleet over time.  If visitors or other critics object to what they see, for instance, ask them why, and use their knowledge to help you refine your fleet.  ...  I decided to model East Portland and Portland OR in 1952 about 5 years ago, and I started looking for information to help.  My collection of photos and information was initially small, but it has probably grown 3 or 4 times larger since I started, most of it from the Internet and publications.

I hope this helps.

Todd Sullivan


Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet

Jack Mullen
 

Fran,
The group files hold quite a lot of data about the national freight car fleet, and not all of it just deals with boxcars.
This file might be of use:
https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/files/1953%20CARS%20IN%20SERVICE%202.xls
With gons, be aware that there's a devil lurking in the details. Mill gons tend to behave more like boxcars, a somewhat free-running nationwide pool so the road-name distribution should be in proportion to the proportion of the national fleet. However, gons used primarily in bulk material dervice tend to move more locally or regionally, so the modelled fleet of these should reflect that.
Since you have a '56 ORER, you might research the top 6 or 10 largest fleets, pluse other significant railroads in your area. An hour or two with the ER should put you in good shape to choose available models.  

Jack Mullen


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)

Bob Chaparro
 

 

My guess is most barrels for cement were a size known as a tierce, which is about 42 gallons. This is the size of a barrel of petroleum or salt. A 42-gallon barrel of salt would weigh about 400 pounds.

 

Tight cooperage was used for liquids and was made from straight, knotless white oak. Beer barrels had the most demanding standards. They had to hold both pressure and liquid, so they were lined with pitch and made of thicker and choicer wood.

 

Slack cooperage used less choice wood and held dry items such as fruit and cement.

 

I am still searching for a photo of a barrel of cement.

 

Bob Chaparro

 

Hemet, CA

 


Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)

Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

Thank you Bob. My undrstanding from some of the oldtimers is that raw cement was shipped in barrels at 
least up into the early 1930's, if not all the way up to the beginning of WW II, but I've never seen any written
or photographic confirmation of it. The barrels I was told about were said to be normal, banded wood stave
barrels as opposed to something like 55 gal. steel drums. 

During the summer after I finished university I worked for the Vermont Highway Dept. as a concrete inspector 
while waiting to go into the military. This was back when what is now the Vermont Agency of Transportation 
knew how to build highways, an art they have since forgotten. Four of us were based at the old Miller Ready-Mix
plant off of US Rt. #4 on the New Hampshire bank of the Connectcut River opposite White River Jct., VT. The 
site had apparently been part of the Boston & Maine RR's original yard in the area before the so-called New Yard 
was constructed south of the White River Jct. depot. Thus the lease had a requirement that a certin percentage
of the inbound cement had to come by rail rather than Ft. Edwards Express trucks. All of the cement originated 
in the Glen Falls, NY area and that coming by rail came in early D&H Greenville 70 ton covered hoppers. When 
full the cement was still roughly 3 ft.below the roof of the car....as I found out when it became my turn to pulll a 
sample before an arriving load could be emptied into the storage silo. We dd not have a steel rod with a cn or 
scoop attached as one would have thought would be used. I was glad to have leather boots on my feet that day 
as I had to jump down into the car through an open hatch and fill a small pail with cement before clambering back 
out again withi it. Wih that dusty atmosphere the shower was a welcome site that evening! During a summer 
school vacation period some fifteen years ago I trucked cement from Quebec to Vermont in air differential 
pressure trailers. That's an awful lot easier way to unload such material from either a truck trailer or a railroad car.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Re: C&O 40' 1930 Automobile Boxcar

Tony Thompson
 

Donald Valentine wrote:

Today the ony thing that seems to change is the pattern of graffitti on the cars. When I see that I wish each car had a 50 cal. turret on top of it with a gunner having a shoot to kill order for anyone seen approaching the train with a spray can.  Damned sick of the irresponsibe nonsense with spray cans to the point where I'd like to see the Federally outlawed.

       Well, if we're going to discuss swimming up river against a good current, ancient Greek writers complained about writing on the walls, and there is plenty of Roman graffiti on the walls at Pompeii. It ain't exactly a new observation.
         But it really doesn't matter how you like or don't like it. It simply IS the reality today. If you model any time after 1980 (well past this list of course, as is Don's comment in the first place), you can either model reality or fantasy.
        But let's return to those halcyon days of yesteryear, before 1960 reared its head . . .

Tony Thompson



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