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Photo: Freight Cars At Armourdale, Kansas City, Kansas
Photo: Freight Cars At Armourdale, Kansas City, Kansas A 1915 photo from the Kansas City Public Library: https://pendergastkc.org/collection/9130/10008062/morris-co-and-swift-co-plants-armourdale/47662 Caption: "Photograph of the Morris & Company (left) and the Swift & Company (right background) packing plants in Armourdale, Kansas City, Kansas. This vantage point faces south from the Kansas side of the Central Avenue bridge over the Kansas River. Morris & Company was once located where Interstate 670 runs just west of the Kansas River." Scroll on the photo to enlarge it. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA
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Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet
I realize all that. I was responding to the OP’s comment that he “only room for 2 additional gondolas in the fleet due to a limited amount and length of the staging tracks.” Those 2 gons are going to stand out if used every session. Brian J. Carlson
On Mar 19, 2020, at 11:22 AM, Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:
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Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar
Jerry Dziedzic
A few thoughts to add to Mal's. Cement packaging long relied on barrels and cloth bags. I credit Hercules Cement with the first rail shipments in covered hoppers, in 1929. Tony Thompson has a photo of bulk cement in a boxcar during the construction of Shasta Dam in the 1940's; imagine unloading that one! It's my guess that bulk eliminated barrels, but I don't know when. I don't know when paper sacks replaced cloth, either; about the same time flour made the change? I have LCL waybills from the early 1940's returning bundles of cloth bags to cement mills.
Weight is the advantage a sack has over a barrel. One sack contains a cubic foot of cement weighing 94 lbs, more easily carried to a small job site. A barrel's volume was 4 cu. ft. so a barrel weighed 376 lbs. Boxcar loads of sacks from Lehigh Valley cement producers were common in the 60's and early 70's Much cement still moves in sacks, though now by truck. Pennsylvania's Public Utilities Commission permitted highway bulk transport in 1958, as I remember. Wish I were near my files to confirm this date. Jerry Dziedzic
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Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet
Brian,
Although what you say is correct - there are some things you can do to 'mix it up' that lessen how many off layout cars you need/need to swap in and out ... Don't let your crews always take the same jobs. Use 4 part way bills. Swap way bills between cars of the same type between sessions or even between trips out of staging (fiddle the way bills in staging). Add in the specific 'demand for and response to' empties - most let the waybills act as the empty supply ... if you have a yard clerk job you can model the actual empty supply part of the equation. You can even add in that the clerk has to pay attention to the car forwarding rules and the captive service cars. Add in "clean out track" operations (yeah, I know, this is difficult to do with existing trackage). Or maybe your boxes/drawers of 'extra' cars can model that - first the car goes to staging, then it gets its waybill pulled, then it goes to the cleanout drawer, then to the available drawer, then back to staging, then a waybill assigned and actually in a train for the next op? Perhaps the cars in staging get "clean out waybills"? Modernize an industry (swap in a different structure?) and change its demand from 40' cars to 50 footers. Recruit from a larger crew base - so that not everyone is always the same. One layout I know puts out a 'call for operators' once a month - his crew size is 18! - he has about 25-30 guys on his call list. First 18 responders get jobs, the rest wait till next month. He often fills his crew in under 48 hours and has filled it as little as 4 hours. Yes, his crew calls go out in emails and the responses are emails. He puts out his call "about 10 days before the Op". - Jim. O
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Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet
Schuyler Larrabee
On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 02:34 PM, Brian Carlson wrote:
Ah! That's where your ops strategy comes in. I operate on layouts using 4 place bills and yes you learn what goes where. IF the cars are 'noticeable' meaning bright colors or unusual design. My gon's, hoppers all look pretty much alike, so there's no memory retention. Cars carry the same load, but seldom go to the same customers each ops. Operators are more interested in what goes where rather than the model, especial if they're generic looking.
That’s exactly correct, Clark. I operate on a club layout where we use +/- 300-350 cars in the freight car fleet. Our “Classic” operations are two sequential months, followed by two months of “Modern” ops, then back to Classic, and so on. So even though I only participate I the “Classic” sessions, with that spacing out of the sessions and I can think right now of about five cars that show up randomly, every four or five months, when they show up in the yard, I don’t have to look at the waybill – I know what train I should put it in. The waybills for all the other cars change, even for tank cars, so everything else requires looking at the waybill to establish where it goes from here. Much more engaging of brain and pleasure.
And as much as I like that “brick” car, that’s why I am unlikely to build one.
Schuyler
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Re: Bob's Photos
Eric Hansmann
Bob also sells Tichy parts, in case you need supplies.
Eric Hansmann Murfreesboro, TN
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schleigh Mike via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2020 9:52 AM To: STMFC <main@realstmfc.groups.io>; Steam Freight Car <realstmfc@groups.io> Subject: [RealSTMFC] Bob's Photos
Hello Freight Car Aficionados!
Yesterday I received a nice package of photos from Bob Liljestrand. Speaking with him on the phone, I learned that he is more than willing to offer his services if you wish to write or call to discuss specifics. His details are as follows---
Bob’s Photo P. O. Box 52 Wallingford, KY 41093 Phone----606-845-3323
Most of you know he has neither email nor a web site AND no catalog. However, if you request something like a C&O boxcar in the group 18500-18999, he can probably help you.
Like most of us, Bob is stuck at home with all near-term train shows/meets cancelled. He would appreciate the chance to help you with any photos he might have. He likes to talk too.
I have no skin in this message and I trust I can be forgiven its posting at this time.
Kind regards from wet Grove City, Penna, Where the skunk cabbage is emerging---Mike Schleigh
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Bob's Photos
Schleigh Mike
Hello Freight Car Aficionados! Yesterday I received a nice package of photos from Bob Liljestrand. Speaking with him on the phone, I learned that he is more than willing to offer his services if you wish to write or call to discuss specifics. His details are as follows--- Bob’s Photo P. O. Box 52 Wallingford, KY 41093 Phone----606-845-3323Most of you know he has neither email nor a web site AND no catalog. However, if you request something like a C&O boxcar in the group 18500-18999, he can probably help you. Like most of us, Bob is stuck at home with all near-term train shows/meets cancelled. He would appreciate the chance to help you with any photos he might have. He likes to talk too. I have no skin in this message and I trust I can be forgiven its posting at this time. Kind regards from wet Grove City, Penna, Where the skunk cabbage is emerging---Mike Schleigh
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Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet
Clark Propst
On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 02:34 PM, Brian Carlson wrote:
Who models their fleet based on staging? (Other than maybe Clark P) you should have some off-layout storage also or you’re gonna get bored with the same cars and your operators will begin to know where to route a car automatically.Ah! That's where your ops strategy comes in. I operate on layouts using 4 place bills and yes you learn what goes where. IF the cars are 'noticeable' meaning bright colors or unusual design. My gon's, hoppers all look pretty much alike, so there's no memory retention. Cars carry the same load, but seldom go to the same customers each ops. Operators are more interested in what goes where rather than the model, especial if they're generic looking. CW Propst
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Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar
Paul Woods <paul@...>
Was there an expectation that empty barrels would be returned? Regards Paul Woods ---- On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 02:48:13 +1300 Malcolm H. Houck via Groups.Io <Indian640@...> wrote ----
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Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet
Who models their fleet based on staging? (Other than maybe Clark P) you should have some off-layout storage also or you’re gonna get bored with the same cars and your operators will begin to know where to route a car automatically.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Brian J. Carlson
On Mar 18, 2020, at 3:31 PM, Fran Giacoma <frangiacoma@...> wrote:
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Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar
Aley, Jeff A
Guy,
Thanks for the answers. I’m glad to have learned something new today.
Regards,
-Jeff
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Guy Wilber via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2020 12:40 PM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar
Jeff wrote:
“I see a series of at least 5 rings where the car side meets the roof. What are they?”
Lifting rings to which chain blocks were attached for lifting automobiles or light trucks for tilting or decking prior to the more common use of Evans or NYC auto racks. This is definitely a 40’ auto car with staggered doors.
“I also see something at the peak of the end (a rectangular plate with maybe a chain dangling from it?). What is that?”
I see it and agree it’s very small chain or a stretch of rope, but am unsure of its purpose.
“Finally, in my ignorance, I am surprised that the lining of the car side does not go all the way to the floor. Are boxcars commonly built this way?”
Commonly referred to as “belt rails” and another staple of auto cars from the ‘teens, 1920s and 1930s. Heavy boards for securing blocking, bracing and temporary decking.
Guy Wilber Reno, Nevada
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Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar
Guy Wilber
Jeff wrote: “I see a series of at least 5 rings where the car side meets the roof. What are they?” Lifting rings to which chain blocks were attached for lifting automobiles or light trucks for tilting or decking prior to the more common use of Evans or NYC auto racks. This is definitely a 40’ auto car with staggered doors. “I also see something at the peak of the end (a rectangular plate with maybe a chain dangling from it?). What is that?” I see it and agree it’s very small chain or a stretch of rope, but am unsure of its purpose. “Finally, in my ignorance, I am surprised that the lining of the car side does not go all the way to the floor. Are boxcars commonly built this way?” Commonly referred to as “belt rails” and another staple of auto cars from the ‘teens, 1920s and 1930s. Heavy boards for securing blocking, bracing and temporary decking. Guy Wilber Reno, Nevada_._,_._,_
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Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet
Fran Giacoma
Thank you John for the info and attachment. This will help me narrow down my choices as I have only room for 2 additional gondolas in the fleet due to a limited amount and length of the staging tracks.
Fran Giacoma
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Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar
Todd Sullivan
Hi Jeff,
I'm going to offer some hunches, and I'll probably be corrected in due course! The boxcar interior first. When I was at the NPTCo in the early 1960s, that car would have been classified by the car inspectors as being suitable for rough freight. The interior lining is incomplete, and the lining (boards) that do exist are in rough shape. Barrels are rough freight, in that they don't need a smooth lining to protect the product/lading, so the car's condition and the load are matched. That doesn't explain why the lining boards seem to be missing at the bottom and near the top of the sides, but maybe that's the way the car's owner equipped the car. That's not common for boxcars, BTW. Looking at the blocking (dunnage) to keep the barrels in place, it occurred to me that perhaps the car is in dedicated service, as the lining boards are at the correct height to nail the blocking. The 5 rings or hooks on both sides of the car by the doors could have been used to hang tarps or other primitive load-restraining devices (ropes?) to keep the lading from shifting toward the door openings. They are probably not hooks for the workers' coats! The device on the car end with the chain attached could be a vent, but it really doesn't look like that. So, that's a puzzle beyond my knowledge. Todd Sullivan
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Re: Priming w/Yellow
Thank you Bill!
On 3/17/2020 11:21 AM, Bill Welch wrote:
Badger’s Primers and Modelflex line of paints rarely if ever require reduction so “no" for that question. --
Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
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Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar
Aley, Jeff A
In the first photo (link reproduced here: https://tessa.lapl.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/photos/id/100971/rec/1247 ), I see a series of at least 5 rings where the car side meets the roof. What are they? I also see something at the peak of the end (a rectangular plate with maybe a chain dangling from it?). What is that? Finally, in my ignorance, I am surprised that the lining of the car side does not go all the way to the floor. Are boxcars commonly built this way?
Thanks,
-Jeff
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2020 9:44 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar
Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar An undated photo from the Los Angeles City Public Library: https://tessa.lapl.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/photos/id/100971/rec/1247 Caption: "Barrels of liquor are stacked in a railroad car, ready to be transported. The number 1 is written on the top of each barrel." A good view of how these barrels were secured in a boxcar. It's possible these are beer barrels as they appear to be the same kind of barrels as shown in this photo, although the boxcar is not the same one: https://tessa.lapl.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/photos/id/103564/rec/16 Caption: "One man brings a barrel of Los Angeles Brewing Co. beer as two men roll the barrel on a railroad car. The barrels are stacked into the railroad car and later transported." Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA
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Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)
On Mar 17, 2020, at 20:37, Richard Townsend via Groups.Io <richtownsend=netscape.net@groups.io> wrote:
This suggests a rail/marine scene, as in the 19th and early 20th centuries China came to North America in the holds of ships, packed just like that. Visit the 1886 steel sailing ship Balclutha[0] at the only floating national park in the US[1] to see an example. [0] Connell & Sons, Glasgow [1] San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park: <http://www.nps.gov/safr/>; -- "Honor is a mere scutcheon." John Falstaff, Henry IV Part 1 V.i.129–139
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Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet
John King
Fran,
The attached spreadsheet is an excerpt from a much larger spreadsheet compiled by the late Tim Gilbert of through trains between Potomac Yard and Monroe Virginia. Most of the gons were in through service between Potomac Yard (4) and Monroe (165). I have highlighted the few local cars in yellow. There is a nice interesting variety here. Any of them could have occasionally wound up on the B&O Shenandoah Subdivision.
I’m familiar with the branch line you are modeling. The interchanges on the B&O’s Shenandoah Sub had very little use as through routes. The tariffs I have show the interchange for traffic on the B&O between the west and the Southern as Potomac Yard. The only routes via Strasburg Jct. were for traffic to and from stations on Southern’s Harrisonburg Branch or traffic to or from stations on the B&O’s Shenandoah Sub. Through traffic from the N&W generally was interchanged on the main line at Shenandoah Jct., not Charlestown but there might be the occasional carload of coal in a gondola.
That pretty much limits us to what might be delivered to a station on the Shenandoah Sub. or the occasional interchange car to the Southern.
There were lots of B&O container gons to the lime and dolomite plants. Unfortunately, there is no current model available for the 50 foot B&O O-27B cars used with the containers.
John King
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Fran Giacoma
Thanks for all the replies. As info, I am doing this same project with the flat cars on my layout so I will use the results here with them also.
Clyde - great idea looking at photos of trains. They, like conductors reposts are rare for my sub-division, but will keep on looking for them.
Jack - that table is exactly what I was looking for. Even though it is 1953, It will give me a good starting point to go further with this project. I definitely will go back to my ORER and look at the top 10 fleets and also examine the “friendly” interchanges with the B&O on and off this sub-division.
Todd - thanks for turning me on to the recapitulation list for each railroad; just found them in my ORER! This saves a lot of time looking up and adding numbers. I have my list of industries and the type of cars they use; I am constant refining it as I acquire more info, which is an ongoing pursuit.
I started this project this past weekend as the wife and I are “social distancing”. Being retired and all my volunteer gigs are cancelled this week and next, I have a lot of time to operate and work on the layout. Projects like these are most enjoyable and keep my brain active.
Thanks again!
Fran Giacoma
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Re: Adjusting the gondola fleet
Fran Giacoma
Thanks for all the replies. As info, I am doing this same project with the flat cars on my layout so I will use the results here with them also.
Clyde - great idea looking at photos of trains. They, like conductors reposts are rare for my sub-division, but will keep on looking for them.
Jack - that table is exactly what I was looking for. Even though it is 1953, It will give me a good starting point to go further with this project. I definitely will go back to my ORER and look at the top 10 fleets and also examine the “friendly” interchanges with the B&O on and off this sub-division.
Todd - thanks for turning me on to the recapitulation list for each railroad; just found them in my ORER! This saves a lot of time looking up and adding numbers. I have my list of industries and the type of cars they use; I am constant refining it as I acquire more info, which is an ongoing pursuit.
I started this project this past weekend as the wife and I are “social distancing”. Being retired and all my volunteer gigs are cancelled this week and next, I have a lot of time to operate and work on the layout. Projects like these are most enjoyable and keep my brain active.
Thanks again!
Fran Giacoma
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Re: Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)
Mont Switzer
Tim,
I don’t think it has much affect. Depending on the size of the drums, they fit nicely on a pallet, which was easier to handle. Four 55 gallon steel drums fit nicely onto a 48 inch pallet.
There is also a “gizmo” that allows a forklift to attach itself directly to a 55 gallon steel drum, one or two at a time for floor loading.
The way I read all of this the pallet didn’t show up until after cement was no longer shipped in barrels, though.
Mont
Montford L. Switzer President Switzer Tank Lines, Inc. Fall Creek Leasing, LLC. (765) 836-2914
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2020 9:51 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Barrels in A Boxcar (Cement)
So the fork lift and the wood pallet doomed most barrel use?
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