Date   

Re: Photo: CP Boxcar 24000

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Was this a class of cars, or a one-off?

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Smith
Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2020 10:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: CP Boxcar 24000

 

Interesting!  A bit earlier than the PRR's class X36 103500, their 9/25/1936 example of an outside post boxcar, well before these became popular!

 

(photo posted to Rob Schoewnberg's page, from the collection of Bill Lane)

 

Regards,

Bruce 

Bruce Smith

Auburn, Al

 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb@...>
Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2020 6:45 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: CP Boxcar 24000

 

Photo: CP Boxcar 24000

Courtesy of Model Railroader, an early vertical rib boxcar:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/b399/doctorwayne/Scanned%20foe-toes/Copy%20of%20CPR%20BOXCAR007.jpg

No information provided to accompany the photo.

Experimental car or put into service in meaningful numbers?

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: vertical ribbed box car ends (was [RealSTMFC] Some Good Photos of Wrecks with Freight Cars in them)

Brent Greer
 

I was told that the 8-8 vertical ribs were from Murphy, and that a 7-7 inverted vertical rib was also offered by Vulcan.

Brent


Dr. J. Brent Greer


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 10:03 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: vertical ribbed box car ends (was [RealSTMFC] Some Good Photos of Wrecks with Freight Cars in them)
 

Reminds me of this end - Did anyone ever identify who made the ends with vertical ribs?

http://www.fritzmilhaupt.com/bbgraphics/85500EndSm.jpg


==============================

On 3/28/2020 4:39 PM, brianleppert@... wrote:

I think photo is attached.

Brian

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Early Fruit Transportation

Bob Chaparro
 

Early Fruit Transportation

From the 1908 book, Private Freight Cars And American Railways by

Louis Dwight Harvell:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo1.ark:/13960/t60584r0q&view=1up&seq=9

Most of what is discussed below predates Pacific Fruit Express (formed in 1906) and the Santa Fe Fruit & Refrigerator Line (formed in 1892.)

Bob Chaparro

Moderator

++++ 

The first refrigerator line of any importance operated solely for the fruit traffic was that of F. A. Thomas, a fruit and produce dealer of South Water Street, Chicago. His line was started in the following way. A Detroit inventor named Carlton B. Hutchins perfected a refrigerator car in 1886, had fifty of them built, organized the Detroit Refrigerator Car Company, and operated them over the

Michigan Central in the fruit and produce trade.

Owing to a personal disagreement with the president of the road, Mr. Hutchins was obliged to cease operating his cars over the Michigan Central, and went to Chicago in search of some one who would use them. There he found Mr. Thomas and his son, who took them, and operated them in traffic to the East.

In a few months Mr. Thomas prevailed upon the roads running to the Pacific coast to let him send five cars to California to test carrying fruit from there to

Chicago. The fruit growers were skeptical and would not allow their fruit to be shipped in these cars, so the Thomas firm had to buy the fruit with which to load them. The experiment was successful, and the possibilities in the development

of this traffic were immediately realized. This was in 1888.

Soon the Thomases, together with Mr. Hutchins, formed the California Fruit Transportation Company, (known as the C. F. T.), which rented cars of the Hutchins Refrigerator Car Company, a corporation which had been formed for the purpose of building and owning the cars, for $8.33 a month each. This company operated for a couple of years at enormous profits and its success allured others into the field.

Soon the Goodell Line, owned by Porter Brothers, began in the California trade, and then came the Continental Fruit Express (known as the C. F. X.), owned by Mr. Edwin T. Earl.

It was about this time (1890), that Armour became interested in the fruit traffic,

and it is alleged that Earl got his first refrigerators from him. At any rate, there soon ensued a fierce competition for the traffic, and cut rates and rebates were granted indiscriminately.

Armour became allied with Porter Brothers, and later absorbed that company. The relations between Armour and this company were investigated in the

Interstate Commerce Commission hearing of October, 1904.

The cutting of rates was carried to such an extent that the Thomas Company became embarrassed, and after a few futile efforts to maintain its business, it was forced to the wall. The C. F. T. was later absorbed by Swift, and is

now one of the lines operated by him.

Not long after this, the Earl Company, C. F. X., was bought out by Armour at

a high price, for this company had increased its equipment and business and had not been driven to the wall under the stress of competition.

After this, the fruits of California were carried mainly in Armour cars, until late in the nineties when the Santa Fe began to build an adequate supply of refrigerators.

As stated above, it was not until about 1890 that Armour became interested in the fruit traffic. Previous to that time his refrigerator-car equipment was used only in hauling  dressed meats. He began by building 1000 cars for the carriage of fruits and vegetables, and sent men into the fruit-growing sections of the country to demonstrate the practicability of his cars and to solicit business.

The traffic developed, and he soon built another thousand cars. By building its own cars, and by acquiring the cars of other companies, the Armour Car Lines soon became the most powerful company in the business.

The equipment of some fifteen to twenty different concerns, some of them very

small, have been purchased by the Armour Company from first to last, but they now operate principally under the following names: Armour Car Lines (in the meat traffic), Fruit Growers' Express, and the Continental Fruit Express.


Re: Breakdown of Dan Hall’s Southwest Scale Productions Door Parts w/Link

Bill Welch
 

Apologies to Tim for misspelling his last name. I have corrected it in my Documents and will repost if I find a reason to revise the document.

Bill Welch


Breakdown of Dan Hall’s Southwest Scale Productions Door Parts w/Link

pennsylvania1954
 

Tim and Bill--Well done, gents. Very much appreciated. Thanks!
--
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


Re: vertical ribbed box car ends (was [RealSTMFC] Some Good Photos of Wrecks with Freight Cars in them)

Tim O'Connor
 


Reminds me of this end - Did anyone ever identify who made the ends with vertical ribs?

http://www.fritzmilhaupt.com/bbgraphics/85500EndSm.jpg


==============================

On 3/28/2020 4:39 PM, brianleppert@... wrote:
I think photo is attached.

Brian

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: [ResinFreightCarBuilders] Tim O'Conner's Breakdown of Dan Hall’s Southwest Scale Productions Door Parts w/Link

Tim O'Connor
 

Bill,

All okay with me, but I'm not sure I like to have a post in the archives with
the subject that begins with "Tim O'Conner's [sic] Breakdown..." :-D

Tim O'


On 3/28/2020 8:34 PM, Bill Welch wrote:

I have taken Tim O'Conner's VERY helpful post here today and re-organized it a bit—hope this okay with you Tim—and put in both a Word doc (so you can make your own notes on it) and as a PDF in case for some reason you cannot open  a Word doc.

Thank you Tim!!!

Bill Welch

 

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: RPM Chicagoland News

skibbs4
 

While the Sheraton did try to move us to a Wed-Fri program schedule, the issue was the costs didn’t go down. We have a lot of walk in traffic from locals on Saturday, a day we offer a one day rate for those folks who couldn’t get off work during the week. It helped balance the bills enough that we weren’t comfortable losing out on that bit of revenue. If the show continued in its “Big Format”. 

I applaud Frank’s willingness to shift this event a bit. A small format is a good thing this year. And let’s see what 2021 brings. I hope everything bounces back. 

I do know that I’m finding a lot of time to work on models all of the sudden. Make sure you support your local hobby shops. And or Des Plaines Hobbies who are still doing mail order!

Mike Skibbe
www.rpmconference.com

On Mar 29, 2020, at 2:29 AM, Bob Chapman <chapbob611@...> wrote:


Tom Madden writes:
"The Sheraton - Lisle would rather do weddings on Saturdays than conventions so they've priced themselves out of range for meets like ours."


The 1+ day meet arrangements at NIU for 2020 make perfect sense, given the overall situation. But if the hotel situation described by Tom continues into 2021, I have to wonder whether Chicagoland might be nearly as successful with a full 2 1/2 day mid-week convention vs the scaled-down weekend version. Many of the attendees are retirees where "every day is a Saturday," and the sampling of younger attendees I have met seem committed enough RPMers to consider scheduling vacation time. Mid-week weddings would be less of an issue; mid-week competition for the convention space and room availability vs. weekday business travel would have to be checked out with the hotel.

No question we would lose some folks with mid-week timing, but if things look encouraging from the hotel, there might be interesting insight if Frank were to poll the registrants and dealers from 2019 with this question. And to put us back on topic for realSTMFC -- more time for freight car clinics and discussion!

Regards,
Bob Chapman


Re: Western Fruit Express 12' 11" rebuilt reefer.

Bill Welch
 

Scott the 12' 11" measurement refers to these FGE and WFE rebuilds height from the top of the rail to the roof eave of the car. FGE and WFE began rebuilding their prewar built wood sheathed cars in 1948 applying a taller steel braced superstructure.

Bill Welch


Re: Photo: CP Boxcar 24000

Benjamin Hom
 

Don Valentine wrote:
"Surprisingly a photo and drawings for the Union Pacific single sheathed 50 ft. car that Walthers used the drawings for the prototype of thier model that I raised questions about this week can also be found in the 1919 Car Builders [Cyclopedia]."

Not Walthers - Westerfield.


Ben Hom


Re: IM Deco End Car Question

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Guy,

The IM Deco boxcar has the circle with a horizontal bar across only the center of the circle. That doesn't quite seem to fit any of the signs you describe.

Yours Aye,

Mungo Napier, Laird of Mallard Lodge  🦆


On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 10:33 PM Guy Wilber via Groups.Io <guycwilber=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

Al Smith wrote

“That symbol on the door may be an early indicator of load restraining devices in the car. Maybe someone with more info on these devices and what symbols were used can give a better explanation.”

From the archives, the symbol is covered in the last paragraph:

 Guy Wilber
11/27/13   

Tim asked:
 
 
"Is there a similar document for the stencils that you have described?"
 
Yes, the Plates within Section L of the AAR Manual of Standard and Recommended Practice.
 
 
"I often see this bar-ball stencil with or without lines above and below, and another common door stencil is a circle with a vertical line.  Also a bar-ball with vertical lines on each side. (Which I always thought meant the car was equipped with movable bulkheads.)"
 
 
Plate 42-A was adopted in August of 1946.  The figure was a 5" diameter ball centered over a 10" long x 3" high solid bar.  Applied, the figure signified cars equipped to handle auto parts.
 
In 1959 the Car Construction Committee was requested to develop figures which would signify cars equipped with Evans DF, Spartan Tri-Belt and Transco S-L load restraining devices. 
 
The figure developed to signify cars equipped with bar type restraining systems (as above) was the same as 42-A with the addition of two 7-1/2" long x 1-1/2" high bars placed horizontally above and below the key slot.
 
The figure developed to signify cars equipped with movable bulkheads was the same as 42-A with the addition of two  7-1/2" x 1-1/2" vertical bars bracketing the key slot. 
 
At that same time Plate 42-A was incorporated into the same grouping with the caption, "Method of marking cars equipped for handling  containers."
 
The figures (presented as Plate 42-B) were approved and became effective on March 1, 1960.
 
The circle with the vertical bar was Plate 42-D adopted in 1953.  The figure was a 6" inch in diameter x 1" thick circle with a 1" thick vertical bar.  The figure was stenciled on cars equipped with permanent lading strap anchors.  



Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada
guy


Re: RPM Chicagoland News

Bob Chapman
 

Tom Madden writes:
"The Sheraton - Lisle would rather do weddings on Saturdays than conventions so they've priced themselves out of range for meets like ours."


The 1+ day meet arrangements at NIU for 2020 make perfect sense, given the overall situation. But if the hotel situation described by Tom continues into 2021, I have to wonder whether Chicagoland might be nearly as successful with a full 2 1/2 day mid-week convention vs the scaled-down weekend version. Many of the attendees are retirees where "every day is a Saturday," and the sampling of younger attendees I have met seem committed enough RPMers to consider scheduling vacation time. Mid-week weddings would be less of an issue; mid-week competition for the convention space and room availability vs. weekday business travel would have to be checked out with the hotel.

No question we would lose some folks with mid-week timing, but if things look encouraging from the hotel, there might be interesting insight if Frank were to poll the registrants and dealers from 2019 with this question. And to put us back on topic for realSTMFC -- more time for freight car clinics and discussion!

Regards,
Bob Chapman


Re: Western Fruit Express 12' 11" rebuilt reefer.

Jim Hayes
 

Here you are.

JimH

On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 9:10 PM Scott <repairman87@...> wrote:
There is a listing for a Sunshine Western Fruit Express 12' 11" rebuilt reefer.  The asking price is $100.00 so I am out but just curious what the 12'11" refers too.  I would normally go to the sunshine site but it is is transition to its new home so can't look it up.  Is it a really tall reefer?  Just curious more than anything.

Scott McDonald


Western Fruit Express 12' 11" rebuilt reefer.

Scott
 

There is a listing for a Sunshine Western Fruit Express 12' 11" rebuilt reefer.  The asking price is $100.00 so I am out but just curious what the 12'11" refers too.  I would normally go to the sunshine site but it is is transition to its new home so can't look it up.  Is it a really tall reefer?  Just curious more than anything.

Scott McDonald


Re: Photo: CP Boxcar 24000

Donald B. Valentine
 

    That's absolutely correct Garth. Have my 1919 Car Builders Cyc. open right here. I'll have to check again with friends
in Montreal as this car, CPR #24000, has been discussed with them before. I don't believe more than a ver few were
construcged, if mre than one, as an experimentaal because the CPR seemed dedicated to the Dominion car examples 
of which arfe in the succeeding pages of rhe 1919 Car Builders Cyc. Surprizingly a photo and drawings for rhe Union Pacific
single sheathed 50 ft. car that Walthers used the drawings for the prototype of thier model that I raised questions about this
week can also be foudn in the 1919 Car Builders. Guess I need to look trhough them more ofen!

   Not ot reain on Mel's parade but I believe this car predates he B&O's efforts with their wagon top construction.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Re: Westerfield NB box car

Clark Propst
 

Donald B. Valentine
5:32pm   
 Yes, a nice car, but since you have stated USRA NYC steel cars, Bruce, I'll bite. Just how close
are those cars to the NYC steel cars that Broadway Limied di a run off? 

I'm no expert, but I think the main difference in the roof. Many if not all the NYC cars received rectangular or diagonal panel roofs. Diagonal being the last type applied. The Westerfield NB kit I have came with doors for NB, HC and NYC. The differences seem to be, besides doors. the brake component arrangement and different car puller connections. The body came with a loop style attached to the side side (molded on). To change to a NB or HC car these would need to be shaved off and replaced with some made from flat iron with a rectangular slot. These were welded to the car side. This was done as built or by Universal Cement the original owners.
That's all I got...
CW Propst 


Re: Photo: CP Boxcar 24000

John Riddell
 

CP 24000 was a single all-steel car built in November  1914 (lot 237) by the Canadian Car & Foundry Co. Limited in Montreal. It carried lettering indicating it was to carry  grain from Port McNicoli,  Ontario and St. John, New Brunswick. It had a capacity of 2610 cu ft, , inside length 36-0, inside width 8-7, inside height 8-4.  It had a grain door at the top of the A end. It had a capacity of 80,000 lbs.

 

Six months earlier in June 1914, CC&F built an almost identical car which builders photos show it lettered for CC&F and numbered CC&F 201.

 

John Riddell

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: IM Deco End Car Question

Guy Wilber
 


Al Smith wrote

“That symbol on the door may be an early indicator of load restraining devices in the car. Maybe someone with more info on these devices and what symbols were used can give a better explanation.”

From the archives, the symbol is covered in the last paragraph:

 Guy Wilber
11/27/13   

Tim asked:
 
 
"Is there a similar document for the stencils that you have described?"
 
Yes, the Plates within Section L of the AAR Manual of Standard and Recommended Practice.
 
 
"I often see this bar-ball stencil with or without lines above and below, and another common door stencil is a circle with a vertical line.  Also a bar-ball with vertical lines on each side. (Which I always thought meant the car was equipped with movable bulkheads.)"
 
 
Plate 42-A was adopted in August of 1946.  The figure was a 5" diameter ball centered over a 10" long x 3" high solid bar.  Applied, the figure signified cars equipped to handle auto parts.
 
In 1959 the Car Construction Committee was requested to develop figures which would signify cars equipped with Evans DF, Spartan Tri-Belt and Transco S-L load restraining devices. 
 
The figure developed to signify cars equipped with bar type restraining systems (as above) was the same as 42-A with the addition of two 7-1/2" long x 1-1/2" high bars placed horizontally above and below the key slot.
 
The figure developed to signify cars equipped with movable bulkheads was the same as 42-A with the addition of two  7-1/2" x 1-1/2" vertical bars bracketing the key slot. 
 
At that same time Plate 42-A was incorporated into the same grouping with the caption, "Method of marking cars equipped for handling  containers."
 
The figures (presented as Plate 42-B) were approved and became effective on March 1, 1960.
 
The circle with the vertical bar was Plate 42-D adopted in 1953.  The figure was a 6" inch in diameter x 1" thick circle with a 1" thick vertical bar.  The figure was stenciled on cars equipped with permanent lading strap anchors.  



Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada
guy
_._,_._,_


Re: Westerfield NB box car

Bruce Smith
 

Don,

I'm no expert on these cars, but the BLI cars has been discussed here extensively, and so its features are well described. They boil down to WWII/post WWII modernized cars. I'm not sure what the details on the NB cars are, but I think that they've been mentioned in this thread. I haven't paid attention to these specific cars as the NYC fleet is really the one of impact, with around 30,000 cars, similar to the PRR 29,000 X29s.

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...>
Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2020 7:32 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Westerfield NB box car
 
   Yes, a nice car, but since you have stated USRA NYC steel cars, Bruce, I'll bite. Just how close
are those cars to the NYC steel cars that Broadway Limied di a run off? Can't believe they haven't
done another run of those cars inspite of soe nit-picking be a few. I gae them three additional numbers
for Boston & Albany cars that were nown t have lasted into the 1960's so they could offer four different
numbers and Bob Grubba has never responded. Also provised details that coiud be easiy changed to 
get a DL&W car out of it as well. I know they took heat over the solid box of four, as the should have,
instead of four individual cars bundled as a four pack a dealer could break down but that's not a vaild
reason not to produce another run. Wonder if the N&B car might come out of this as well with a new 
door style.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Re: Photo: CP Boxcar 24000

Bruce Smith
 

Interesting!  A bit earlier than the PRR's class X36 103500, their 9/25/1936 example of an outside post boxcar, well before these became popular!

(photo posted to Rob Schoewnberg's page, from the collection of Bill Lane)

Regards,
Bruce 
Bruce Smith
Auburn, Al


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb@...>
Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2020 6:45 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: CP Boxcar 24000
 

Photo: CP Boxcar 24000

Courtesy of Model Railroader, an early vertical rib boxcar:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/b399/doctorwayne/Scanned%20foe-toes/Copy%20of%20CPR%20BOXCAR007.jpg

No information provided to accompany the photo.

Experimental car or put into service in meaningful numbers?

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA