1. main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
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Re: Model brake component size comparison to prototype

steve_wintner
 

High quality castings for aircraft engines are usually "investment cast" which is pretty much lost wax by another name. A variety of materials can be used - wax, plastic, stereo lithography or other 3d printed resins. Burn them / melt them out, then pour - under vacuum for highest quality. The plasters used withstand very high heat, so high melting point plastic is irrelevant as long as it burns out leaving no ash behind.  All metals shrink when they solidify, but it's only a few percent. Depending on how it's done, the wax may shrink too. .97*.97 = still only a little bit. If you are making aircraft engines, that few percent matters. 

Aside from jewelry, model railroad gubbins, and aircraft engines, there are cheaper processes for most applications.

Steve
Re: Model brake component size comparison to prototype

Randy Hees
 

One thought... While AB control valve portions are going to be about the same size...  noting that some current portions (there are three parts to a AB control valve, the pipe bracket, the service portion and the emergency portion), The pipe bracket hasn't changed... but some [portions have gotten larger... requiring longer mounting studs...    and there are lots of sizes of brake cylinders... you match them to the car's weight....  So the cylinder on a caboose is much smaller than on a 40 or 50 ton box car, with cylinders for a 70 or 100 ton car much larger...  I am not sure about reservoir size...   

In the era for this list, probably only two common sizes... one for the typical 40 or 50 ton freight car, and one for cabooses... 

Randy Hees
Re: Model brake component size comparison to prototype

Dennis Storzek
 

On Sat, Apr 4, 2020 at 10:36 AM, Ralph W. Brown wrote:
My understanding is that the sacrificial material used to make the molds for casting is, as the name of the process implies, wax, which melts and is absorbed by the mold when it is first heated leaving the void later filled with molten brass or other casting metal. 
Wax was used when the masters were being "spin" cast in rubber molds. For higher production numbers the masters are injection molded from styrene. Precision scale Co. plastic parts are the same; investment casting masters sold as parts. Come to think of it, Grandt Line once sold their parts in brass, also.

Dennis Storzek
Re: Model brake component size comparison to prototype

Tim O'Connor
 



Thanks Drew for the clarification. I'd love to see this done. It seems to be an
almost forgotten art at least for HO models.


On 4/4/2020 11:35 AM, Drew wrote:
Tim,
   I worked in a prototype model during my high school years. We used lost wax a few times. First a master is made and a mold made off that master, the mold was usually RTV rubber. Wax was poured in to that mold to make a second master which did shrink a bit. That wax master was then placed in foundry sand and hot metal poured in to the sand mold. The wax melted/vaporized and metal took its place, hence the name lost wax. It's been 20 years since I last did that but I do recall there was a bit of shrinkage in each step.

Drew Marshall in Philly, PA

Modeling the pre-Depression years.

Sent from TypeApp
On Apr 4, 2020, at 09:15, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

As I recall, all Cal-Scale detail components were OVERSIZE because they were used
 for lost wax casting! In that process the plastic parts are for the molds and are
 destroyed in the casting process, and the shrinkage produces parts that are closer
 to scale.
Or am I wrong? :-)
Tim O'Connor
========================================
On 4/4/2020 9:00 AM, Lester Breuer wrote:

A comparison of several manufacturers’ model brake component measurements to Westinghouse prototype brake component measurements prepared by George Toman was sent to me for my use.  I asked George to share his measurements comparison on my blog.  If you are interested in the  comparison measurements, they are now available on my blog I have to share photos and writeup of projects on my Minneapolis & Northland Railroad Company. If would like to take a look please do at the following link:

 

http://mnrailroadcab100.blogspot.com/

 

Lester Breuer

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
Re: CB&Q 110193 Truss Rod boxcar

O Fenton Wells
 

Excellent Bill, thanks for sharing
Fenton

On Sat, Apr 4, 2020 at 12:30 PM Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:
CB&Q 110193 Truss Rod boxcar is a Westerfield kit. My modeling date is Oct. 1955 and by then these were probably all gone but I occasionally cheat and so the car has a re-weigh date in 1952. The underframe has not been glued as yet so the body is not yet sitting firmly nested on the U/F. I have also not yet attached the brake wheel. To help keep the turnbuckles taught as well as provide more comfort for someone "riding the rods" a wood plank has been lodged through the four turnbuckles on each side of the underframe. The scratch built Running Board and Latitudinals will receive replacement boards after sandpaper is used to peel some paint up.

Bill Welch



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...
Re: New Run: Rapido HO Scale General American Meat Reefer

Bob Webber
 

Not much to that - the vents are as delivered as are the stack locations. 

Early SC switcher, if I recall correctly. Winton powered.


At 12:44 PM 4/4/2020, Donald B. Valentine via groups.io wrote:
Say Tim, What in the world do the MOP do to that EMD switcher that moved the exhaust stacks off to the
left side and radically changed the roof vents ahead f them as well? Talk abut the Rock Island's Christine,
this is quite a rebuild!

Cordially, Don Valentine

Bob Webber

Re: New Run: Rapido HO Scale General American Meat Reefer

Schuyler Larrabee
 

GREAT photos for weathering, Tim.

Thanks.

Schuyler

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2020 9:23 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] New Run: Rapido HO Scale General American Meat Reefer


My favorite roof shots of Swift reefers.


On 4/3/2020 10:19 PM, Richard Townsend via groups.io wrote:
The Swift cars had BCR roofs, including the red cars. Obviously they
weathered to streaky gray and red. I’ll defer to others on the silver,
at least for the wood sided cars.


On Apr 3, 2020, at 5:30 PM, Todd Sullivan via groups.io
<sullivant41=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Brian,

Nice catch. My Rapido reefers are in storage in Syracuse, so I'd
better make a note to check the SRLX car when we are reunited. I'll
also check my Sunshine kit that is painted but not assembled. Hmmm,
maybe I should dig it out and finish it during this corona virus lull.

Fun story: Tony Koester had 26 of those red Atlas reefers, and Atlas
only produced about 6 numbers. As occasional yardmaster in
Frankfort's eastbound yard, I got awfully tired of seeing numbers
repeat in a cut of Swift reefers from Kansas City. So, I offered to
rework them a bit and renumber them, working in batches of 4-5 cars.
The next operating session, Tony presented me with a box with all 26
(!) along with some dry transfer numbers that were exactly right for
the Atlas lettering. The dry transfers didn't work very well, and I
decided it was easier to hand re-letter the cars. I found that any
of the numbers 0, 6 and 9, could be easily transformed into another
of those numbers, and the same for 3, 6 and 8, so that's how they got
renumbered. I tried using decals for the journal repack data, and
the first car took about 2.5 hours to get the decals settled into the
scribed siding on both sides. Nope, that wasn't going to work,
either, so I faked the RPKD data with tiny dabs of white paint. It
works with the 2 foot rule - no one has mentioned that it isn't
legible, and I still use the technique on my models!

Todd Sullivan

--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*
Re: Model brake component size comparison to prototype

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Ralph, I believe that lost “was” is, except for unique individual items made by artists casing in silver or gold, no longer used for mass production of parts like model railroad brake gear.  That has become a “lost plastic” process, where many plastic parts are glued together in a “tree< which is then inserted into a can of wet plaster.  When dry the plaster cylinder is heated to get the plastic to run out, and then brass is poured into the middle of a spin casting machine, which forces by centrifugal force, the metal into all the voids in the plaster cylinder.  After cooling (and shrinking) the plaster is broken away and the parts harvested.

 

I presume that the plastic used has a lower melting temperature than that used for injected molded parts from metal dies.

 

I have received lost plastic parts that still have plaster on them.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ralph W. Brown
Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2020 1:34 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Model brake component size comparison to prototype

 

Hi Tim,

 

My understanding is that the sacrificial material used to make the molds for casting is, as the name of the process implies, wax, which melts and is absorbed by the mold when it is first heated leaving the void later filled with molten brass or other casting metal.  I doubt plastic detail parts made by Cal-Scale or others would or could preform the same function, although I suppose they could be used as “masters” for casting the sacrificial wax patterns, copyright issues notwithstanding.

 

I suspect there are others here who are more familiar with the process and could provide a more detailed description of the process.

 

Pax,

 

 

Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com

 

From: Tim O'Connor

Sent: Saturday, April 4, 2020 9:15 AM

Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Model brake component size comparison to prototype

 


As I recall, all Cal-Scale detail components were OVERSIZE because they were used
for lost wax casting! In that process the plastic parts are for the molds and are
destroyed in the casting process, and the shrinkage produces parts that are closer
to scale.

Or am I wrong? :-)

Tim O'Connor

========================================

On 4/4/2020 9:00 AM, Lester Breuer wrote:

A comparison of several manufacturers’ model brake component measurements to Westinghouse prototype brake component measurements prepared by George Toman was sent to me for my use.  I asked George to share his measurements comparison on my blog.  If you are interested in the  comparison measurements, they are now available on my blog I have to share photos and writeup of projects on my Minneapolis & Northland Railroad Company. If would like to take a look please do at the following link:

 

http://mnrailroadcab100.blogspot.com/

 

Lester Breuer

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: New Run: Rapido HO Scale General American Meat Reefer

Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

Say Tim, What in the world do the MOP do to that EMD switcher that moved the exhaust stacks off to the
left side and radically changed the roof vents ahead f them as well? Talk abut the Rock Island's Christine,
this is quite a rebuild!

Cordially, Don Valentine
Re: Model brake component size comparison to prototype

Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Tim,
 
My understanding is that the sacrificial material used to make the molds for casting is, as the name of the process implies, wax, which melts and is absorbed by the mold when it is first heated leaving the void later filled with molten brass or other casting metal.  I doubt plastic detail parts made by Cal-Scale or others would or could preform the same function, although I suppose they could be used as “masters” for casting the sacrificial wax patterns, copyright issues notwithstanding.
 
I suspect there are others here who are more familiar with the process and could provide a more detailed description of the process.
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: Tim O'Connor
Sent: Saturday, April 4, 2020 9:15 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Model brake component size comparison to prototype
 

As I recall, all Cal-Scale detail components were OVERSIZE because they were used
for lost wax casting! In that process the plastic parts are for the molds and are
destroyed in the casting process, and the shrinkage produces parts that are closer
to scale.

Or am I wrong? :-)

Tim O'Connor

========================================

On 4/4/2020 9:00 AM, Lester Breuer wrote:

A comparison of several manufacturers’ model brake component measurements to Westinghouse prototype brake component measurements prepared by George Toman was sent to me for my use.  I asked George to share his measurements comparison on my blog.  If you are interested in the  comparison measurements, they are now available on my blog I have to share photos and writeup of projects on my Minneapolis & Northland Railroad Company. If would like to take a look please do at the following link:

 

http://mnrailroadcab100.blogspot.com/

 

Lester Breuer



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Model brake component size comparison to prototype

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Tim, I believe you’re correct about this process.  I’ll have to look at the information on Lester’s blog and measure a few things.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2020 9:15 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Model brake component size comparison to prototype

 


As I recall, all Cal-Scale detail components were OVERSIZE because they were used
for lost wax casting! In that process the plastic parts are for the molds and are
destroyed in the casting process, and the shrinkage produces parts that are closer
to scale.

Or am I wrong? :-)

Tim O'Connor

========================================

On 4/4/2020 9:00 AM, Lester Breuer wrote:

A comparison of several manufacturers’ model brake component measurements to Westinghouse prototype brake component measurements prepared by George Toman was sent to me for my use.  I asked George to share his measurements comparison on my blog.  If you are interested in the  comparison measurements, they are now available on my blog I have to share photos and writeup of projects on my Minneapolis & Northland Railroad Company. If would like to take a look please do at the following link:

 

http://mnrailroadcab100.blogspot.com/

 

Lester Breuer

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Re: Model brake component size comparison to prototype

Jim Hayes
 

Lester, I read your review of brake equipment sizes and the following one on the SF boxcar and was impressed by both. I should read your blog more often.

JimH
Re: New Run: Rapido HO Scale General American Meat Reefer

Eric Hansmann
 

FYI, I saw three or four of the original run at Chuck’s Depot in Marion, IL, last fall on the return trip from RPM Chicagoland. I do not recall the price, road numbers, or company names. I suspect he is open since he lives upstairs.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Friday, April 3, 2020 5:25 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] New Run: Rapido HO Scale General American Meat Reefer

 

New Run: Rapido HO Scale General American Meat Reefer

From the Rapido website: "Rapido is pleased to announce a new production run of our HO scale General American 37’ meat refrigerator car! It has been quite a while since we’ve offered these popular cars for sale, and it’s about time that we did some more! We are offering new road numbers on some of the most popular schemes from the earlier runs, as well as an all-new HO release."

https://rapidotrains.com/products/ho-scale/freight-cars/ho-scale-37-general-american-garx-reefer

These are available in multiple road numbers for:

American Stores

Armour

Cudahy

Dubuque

GARX Refrigerator

Hormel

Kingan

Morris Rifkin

Oscar Meyer

Swift (Red Block, Red Billboard & War Bonds)

URTX Refrigerator

Undecorated

I have no idea whether all of these variants are accurate for prototype cars, however.

I have no financial connection to Rapido.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA
CB&Q 110193 Truss Rod boxcar

Bill Welch
 

CB&Q 110193 Truss Rod boxcar is a Westerfield kit. My modeling date is Oct. 1955 and by then these were probably all gone but I occasionally cheat and so the car has a re-weigh date in 1952. The underframe has not been glued as yet so the body is not yet sitting firmly nested on the U/F. I have also not yet attached the brake wheel. To help keep the turnbuckles taught as well as provide more comfort for someone "riding the rods" a wood plank has been lodged through the four turnbuckles on each side of the underframe. The scratch built Running Board and Latitudinals will receive replacement boards after sandpaper is used to peel some paint up.

Bill Welch
Re: New Run: Rapido HO Scale General American Meat Reefer

Gary Bechdol
 

Regarding the Swift "War Bonds" reefers, the photo of  SRLX 6307 on page 172 of Ted's Steam Era Freight Cars Reference Manual Vol 3, the upper band shows dark (black?) lettering on a lighter background, possibly yellow.  Also, the "BUY MORE WAR BONDS" appears to be lighter than the (presumably) blue bottom band.  Is it possible that the blue and white bands were added to an otherwise standard yellow painted reefer, with the "BUY MORE WAR BONDS" being in red?  Other than the photograph, is there any other documentation of this paint scheme?

Gary Bechdol
Stone Mountain, GA

On Sat, Apr 4, 2020 at 11:05 AM Douglas Harding <doug.harding@...> wrote:

Chuck if you are referring to the photos Todd posted, those are photos of Atlas models, not the Rapido model, nor are they photos of the prototype. The Atlas model came with four hinges. Atlas claimed the model was based upon a Cudahy car built in 1925, and I have a photo of a Cudahy reefer with four hinges that appears to match the Atlas model. The car in the photo was built in 1928. Four hinges were common on earlier reefers. Some early reefers also came with eight hinges. Six hinges became the defacto with most manufactures of wood cars sometime in the 20s or 30s. One reason I heard was if a hinge failed there was two other hinges on that door to hold it in place. Hinge familiar was commonly due to wood rotting because of the high moisture related to reefers. The doors were heavy because of the construction to contain the insulation and required seals.

 

There are photos of wood Swift reefers with only four hinges. Though the majority of photos show six hinges. This could be because very few photos were taken in the teens and twenties, when four hinges were more common.

 

I have never seen any data showing the number of cars broke down by number of hinges.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chuck Cover
Sent: Saturday, April 4, 2020 7:21 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] New Run: Rapido HO Scale General American Meat Reefer

 

The Swift reefers in the photo have doors with only 4 hinges, which stands out to me.  I think most reefers have doors with 6 hinges.  Can anyone tell me the difference?  Were the four hinge doors lighter weight or were the hinges more heavy duty?   How many reefer cars had the 4 hinge car?  I assume different manufacturers built the different doors.  Thanks

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM
Re: New Run: Rapido HO Scale General American Meat Reefer

Bill Welch
 

Unfortunately Atlas choose to "Lionel'ize" these cars with grotesquely large operating hinges.

Bill Welch
Re: New Run: Rapido HO Scale General American Meat Reefer

Douglas Harding
 

Chuck if you are referring to the photos Todd posted, those are photos of Atlas models, not the Rapido model, nor are they photos of the prototype. The Atlas model came with four hinges. Atlas claimed the model was based upon a Cudahy car built in 1925, and I have a photo of a Cudahy reefer with four hinges that appears to match the Atlas model. The car in the photo was built in 1928. Four hinges were common on earlier reefers. Some early reefers also came with eight hinges. Six hinges became the defacto with most manufactures of wood cars sometime in the 20s or 30s. One reason I heard was if a hinge failed there was two other hinges on that door to hold it in place. Hinge familiar was commonly due to wood rotting because of the high moisture related to reefers. The doors were heavy because of the construction to contain the insulation and required seals.

 

There are photos of wood Swift reefers with only four hinges. Though the majority of photos show six hinges. This could be because very few photos were taken in the teens and twenties, when four hinges were more common.

 

I have never seen any data showing the number of cars broke down by number of hinges.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chuck Cover
Sent: Saturday, April 4, 2020 7:21 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] New Run: Rapido HO Scale General American Meat Reefer

 

The Swift reefers in the photo have doors with only 4 hinges, which stands out to me.  I think most reefers have doors with 6 hinges.  Can anyone tell me the difference?  Were the four hinge doors lighter weight or were the hinges more heavy duty?   How many reefer cars had the 4 hinge car?  I assume different manufacturers built the different doors.  Thanks

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM
Re: New Run: Rapido HO Scale General American Meat Reefer

william darnaby
 

The rear cover photo on Morning Sun’s Refrigerator Car Color Guide shows two Swift red cars, one of which has only 4 hinges.  It’s number is 6544.

 

Bill Darnaby

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chuck Cover
Sent: Saturday, April 4, 2020 7:21 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] New Run: Rapido HO Scale General American Meat Reefer

 

The Swift reefers in the photo have doors with only 4 hinges, which stands out to me.  I think most reefers have doors with 6 hinges.  Can anyone tell me the difference?  Were the four hinge doors lighter weight or were the hinges more heavy duty?   How many reefer cars had the 4 hinge car?  I assume different manufacturers built the different doors.  Thanks

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM
Re: GN Safety Film from the 1940's with lots of Freight Cars

Clark Propst
 

Love that movie. A friend ran a hobby shop here in the 80s-90s and rented tapes. He had that one. I got a copy of it from him.
Thanks for pointing it out on U tube.
CW Propst
Re: New Run: Rapido HO Scale General American Meat Reefer

Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

    With regard to the four hinge doors on meat cars I believe te majority of these were 36 ft. cars rather than 
the 37 most General American cars seem to have been. Swift rostered both, as did Cudahy, but I cannot recall 
ever seeing a photo of four hinge reefer longer than 36 ft. There seems to be a prototype for anythng, however.

Cordially, Don Valentine
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