|
Re: Question re: upcoming Rapido USRA DS box
They were ALL "as-built" until some railroads started kit-bashing them. Our turn now. Chuck Peck On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 6:27 PM Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote: Don't know why I would care about an as-built car Don when I am modeling 1955. |
|
|
|
Re: Question re: upcoming Rapido USRA DS box
Not sure why I would care about an as-built car Don when I am modeling 1955.
Also regarding the TH&B cars, after they were acquired from the parent New York Central they were rebuilt. This included re-fitting with what appears to be wood doors from the 50-ton SS USRA cars and the ladders had what I would describe as stiles applied to the sides with the drop grabs then re-installed on these stiles. The Rapido illustration does not as yet reflect these changes. The aforementioned facia boards are not shown either. Also keep in mind there were only two cars in the flashy Yellow & Black scheme. Bill Welch |
|
|
|
Re: Utah Coal Route steel gons in log service
Dick Harley
Todd mentioned earlier about possibly a yardmaster snagging a single UCR car, but all four of those cars look very similar to me. And I'd say that three of them are clearly lettered Utah Coal Route.
Cheers, Dick Harley Laguna Beach, CA |
|
|
|
Re: More WP West Coast Meat Reefer Data
John Barry
Garth, Thank you for your informative post. It has helped me identify additional potential traffic for my 1944 Richmond CA based layout. From a pair of SP industry maps (1928 & 48), we can identify a Kingan house on the SF Belt that is a prime suspect for car float transfers from Richmond. The 48 map has a second Kingan location served by the SP. That's the good news. The bad news (for me at least) is that the KGNX reporting mark does not show up in the 1945 and earlier ORERs, although it does show under General American in the 1953 edition KGNX 3500-3599 100 RSM cars. The Rapido site claims the KGNX cars were built in 1940 and in a 1950's scheme. Does anyone know how these were marked in 44-45? GARX, URLX? Kingan? And yes, NSD Oakland's cold storage warehouse is a trump card that makes probable almost any meat reefer that was running in 1944. I mey even have to upgrade and weather that ancient Mantua Kahn's car that was one of the first kits that I built circa 1970. John Barry ATSF North Bay Lines Golden Gates & Fast Freights Lovettsville, VA 707-490-9696 PO Box 44736 Washington, DC 20026-4736
On Sunday, April 12, 2020, 07:22:15 AM EDT, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:
Good Friends, After my response to RJ about west coast meat reefer traffic, I decided to parse WP Circular 167-E to see what else could be gleaned from that document about meat traffic. This is not like having real train consists, but does give some ideas about where the cars went and possibly how important, or unimportant, this traffic was. The circular lists all WP/SN/TS/CCT/OT/ABL customers as of 1957, as well as SP/ATSF/UP/Shortline customers in joint switching districts, or where cars would have been received or delivered to/from other roads for local delivery. As such, it doesn't tell us much about traffic on those other railroads, just the possibility of WP interchanging meat reefers there. So on the WP itself we have 12 destinations for "PHP" (packing house products) or "meat". I wonder if the difference was that "meat" meant animal carcasses for further processing, while "PHP" was pre-packaged meat products, or possibly still unpackaged but processed products which would be wrapped for sale at the destination. In addition, there were 8 destinations for "groceries", meaning general grocery wholesalers, or distribution centers owned by large chains (like Safeway) which might have received meat products along with other food shipments. There was also 1 receiver of poultry products. All these customers had sidings with a total of 45 spots, which says something about how much traffic they received (most appear to be small re-distribution centers with just one or two spots--very model railroad-sized operations). I noted that generally the grocery wholesalers had more spots than the meat distribution centers. On WP's subsidiary Sacramento Northern (SN) there were 2 grocery wholesalers with a total of 12 spots. The Tidewater Southern (TS) contributed 1 grocery house with 4 spots. There no customers who received only PHP or meat. There were no PHP or grocery customers listed for WP's partial subsidiaries Oakland Terminal Railway (OT), Central California Traction Co. (CCT) or Alameda Belt Line (ABL). In addition, some customers received their shipments at team tracks, which are not listed as specific to any road, and have no spot counts. 11 customers received PHP or meat via team tracks, with 7 more grocery wholesalers and 4 poultry wholesalers/processors. I presume by this time, the poultry was dressed, not live. I did not count the few customers who received eggs, nor did I count on-line slaughter houses, most of which were fairly small and likely would have received live animals for local consumption and probably did not ship meat anywhere else. By contrast, the SP had 12 customers for PHP/meat traffic, 6 grocery wholesalers, and 3 poultry receivers, and had sidings totalling 80 spots. ATSF contributed 1 grocery wholesaler with just 1 spot. The UP had 1 grocery wholesaler with 2 spots. The situation isn't exactly clear in Salt Lake City, with the WP/D&RGW/UP sharing joint switching at a former arms plant converted to an industrial park that included several possible customers. I put all those under WP above. In addition, there were 10 grocery wholesalers on connecting shortlines or terminal switching operations with a total of 16 spots. Now as to the customers themselves, I found 10 nationally known companies represented with their own distribution centers. Below, these list the railroad, products listed, and number of spots. I'm not sure what "AT" means. It pops up in several different cities in the railroad code space, but it not defined the book's abbreviations section. Likely it's short for "ATSF"; if so the book uses both abbreviations. Somebody mentioned military shipments, and I did not think to include these destinations, but some bases would have received shipments, and the Oakland Army Base was a major supply depot for Pacific overseas installations. Armour--Sacramento (SP-meat, 10); San Francisco (2 SP locations-PHP and meat at both, 2, 4) Cudahy--Oakland (WP-PHP, 1); Salt Lake City (WP/D&RGW/UP-PHP, 9); San Francisco (State Belt RR-PHP, 2) Dubuque--San Francisco (SP-PHP, 10) Hahn--San Francisco (WP-meat, 1) Hormel--San Francisco (WP-PHP and canned goods, 4) Kingan--San Francisco (SP-PHP, 3) Krey--San Francisco (not sure if this one is national; WP-PHP, 1) Morrell--Oakland (WP-PHP, 3) Rath--San Francisco (SP-PHP, 4) Swift--Oakland (WP-PHP, 2); Reno (SP-PHP, 1); Sacramento (SP-meat, 2); San Francisco (SP-PHP, 4); Stockton (AT (ATSF?)-PHP, 10) So obviously, there was west coast meat traffic. This sample mostly includes the WP, and SP's destinations in major central and northern California locations. It does not account for UP or ATSF routes to Southern California, the SP in Oregon, or any north-south through traffic, such as westbound cars received by the GN over the WP's NCE (the "Inside Gateway"). It certainly gives modelers of west coast railroads like the WP and SP justification for including meat reefers in their trains, including packer-owned/leased cars. You wouldn't have seen long trains of meat reefers (unlike PFE fruit blocks). RJ will be happy that the WP likely handled meat reefers from Cudahy, Hahn, Hormel, Krey, Morrell and Swift, though probably only one or two at a time. One more item. Somebody mentioned livestock shipments on the UP into Southern California. This would have been the famous UP hog trains that served the Farmer John's pork plant in the South Los Angles area, probably the last regular large railroad livestock operation in the US. I don't know that Farmer John shipped finished products back out by rail; certainly not when I drove a delivery truck near the plant after college in the 1970s. Farmer John's building and parking lot walls were famous for the murals of cavorting porcine creatures in hog heaven. What you couldn't see from the streets was the the back side of the building's murals (facing the Los Angeles River) showing the pigs being unloaded and hearded to their doom. Sinister. Hope you enjoy "chewing" on this. Now back to scanning negatives. Yours Aye, Garth Groff 🦆 |
|
|
|
Re: Question re: upcoming Rapido USRA DS box
Dave Parker
On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 02:44 PM, Bill Keene wrote:
This sounds like a good reason to pick up a number of undec cars, re-detail them along with painting and lettering. At least the starting point is good.Except that it's really, really easy to over-represent the USRA cars if you are trying to build a prototypically accurate fleet. In 1935 (my year of interest), only one in ~16 B&M box cars was a USRA car. It's the other 15 cars that pose the challenge. I don't think the percentages are much more favorable on any other road. Remember, we are talking about 100,000 TOTAL cars (box, hopper, gon). -- Dave Parker Swall Meadows, CA |
|
|
|
Re: Question re: upcoming Rapido USRA DS box
Bill Keene
This sounds like a good reason to pick up a number of undec cars, re-detail them along with painting and lettering. At least the starting point is good.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Cheers & Happy Modeling, Bill Keene Irvine, CA
|
|
|
|
Re: June 1941. "Railroad yards. Milwaukee, WI
John Barry
Also of note is the URTX meat reefer marked for Dubuque Packing Company. What color is that, orange? Very different from the adjacent Northern Refrigerator to the right or the Milwaukee branded car to the left. And the dark lettering contrasts with the white seen on the tonally similar MILW boxes in the forground. John Barry ATSF North Bay Lines Golden Gates & Fast Freights Lovettsville, VA 707-490-9696 PO Box 44736 Washington, DC 20026-4736
On Sunday, April 12, 2020, 02:03:13 PM EDT, John Larkin via groups.io <jflarkingrc@...> wrote:
That shot highlights 3 Milwaukee boxcars with 3 different paint schemes. I'm not a Milwaukee expert by any means but the cars appear to be built to the same plan. That's one of the best pix I've ever seen illustrating how paint schemes can vary on what appears to be identical cars. John Larkin
On Sunday, April 12, 2020, 12:09:21 PM CDT, Hudson Leighton <hudsonl@...> wrote:
|
|
|
|
Re: Question re: upcoming Rapido USRA DS box
Dave Parker
I can only speak top the B&M's USRA DS cars.
I have the builder's photo from 1919 -- no fascia. I have a photo with a 1934 reweigh date and pretty fresh paint. It has a fascia board. Tempting to assume it has been re-roofed, but it's still Murphy. I have two 1946-47 photos, both with the fascia boards, still with Murphy roofs. Both have the Minutemen herald (rolled out in the summer of 1946), AB brakes, and Ajax hand brakes. In between the last two photos, ca. 1939-40, the reporting mark would have changed (from B&M to BM). So, with the B&M cars, the very best that that a single RTR model could do would be to accurately represent maybe a decade (or less). Unfortunately the Rapido model doesn't seem to represent any particular reality. It lacks the fascia board, and has a stemwinder in conjunction with AB brakes. The paint scheme is1946+, but the original 500 cars were down to 24 cars by 1950, and 4 by 1954. So the Rapido car might be useful as a fleet builder, if one is not too fussy about prototypical accuracy, and if you model ca.1946-49. This is why I don't too excited when new releases of RTR cars are announced. YMMV of course. -- Dave Parker Swall Meadows, CA |
|
|
|
Re: Utah Coal Route steel gons in log service
Todd Sullivan
What's interesting to me is that most of the logs in the log pond appear to be similar in size to the loads in these gons. Perhaps the mill was using them for lumber, but maybe for chips or pulp for paper? And there's that interesting tall building in the background which almost looks like it is connected to the log pond operation by a conveyor.
Also a thought about the crane at the far end of the gons. It certainly looks like it is unloading the logs into the pond (notice the man on the log load dealing with the steel strapping). If it is self-propelled, it could simply switch each empty gon out of the way and work on the next. This was 1946 when processes like this were not always efficient as in later years. On a model railroad, this could add some interesting activity! Todd Sullivan |
|
|
|
Re: Photo: Poultry Car
Tony Thompson
Ed Sutorik wrote: The statement by Ray Breyer: "LPTC, please. The X didn't come until after 1926." conflicts with my November 1926 ORER . . .My suspicion is that it was around 1926 when the "X" became required. The (strong) recommendation for the "X" suffix was in about 1915. Certainly in my 1923 ORER issue there are a huge number of "…X" reporting marks. I don't know that 1926 was a notable year, but maybe someone on the list knows specifics. Tony Thompson |
|
|
|
Re: FSA/OWI photos - Omaha 1938, 1941
Richard Townsend
My January 1938 ORER shows the KCS had two TW vinegar cars, numbers 23531 and 23674. Perhaps this is one of those cars. Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Peck <lnnrr152@...> To: main <main@realstmfc.groups.io> Sent: Sun, Apr 12, 2020 10:19 am Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] FSA/OWI photos - Omaha 1938, 1941 In the fifth picture, I have doubts about it being a pickle car.
It certainly looks similar to a pickle car but all pickle cars I have seen
images of were owned by a pickle packing company.
This car has Kansas City Southern on it. What else could it be hauling?
I have no idea. Something briny or acidic, it would seem.
Could KCS have a car they leased to a pickle producer? A partial number
might end in 24.
Chuck Peck
On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 1:04 PM Paul Krueger <kruegerp12@...> wrote:
|
|
|
|
Re: FSA/OWI photos - Omaha 1938, 1941
spsalso
In the first American Smelting photo, I see a gon with sheet metal trucks. I am very surprised.
Regarding the "pickle tank", there ARE tank cars listed for KCS in the January 1939 ORER. Of particular interest here are the two cars 23531 and 23674, both listed as vinegar tank cars. No gallonage is listed. Overall length is 42'-10"--no heights listed. Ed Edward Sutorik |
|
|
|
Re: FSA/OWI photos - Omaha 1938, 1941
mopacfirst
The MP gon is probably on MoW duty on the MoPac line into Omaha. The embankment appears to be pretty well established, with grass on either side of the work area which has been bladed off. There is a pole line on this side of the embankment, and what appears to be scrap rail or ties that are just being covered.
This suggests either repairing a washout, or perhaps widening the embankment at this point. The car was built in 1919, 3000 cars from three builders, and by 1949 some surviving cars were being rebuilt with steel superstructure. Non-rebuilt ones appear to have been gone by 1952. The original USRA gons had eight drop doors. Clones were built later, but with 10 drop doors. Ron Merrick |
|
|
|
Re: Photo: Poultry Car
spsalso
The statement by Ray Breyer: "LPTC, please. The X didn't come until after 1926." conflicts with my November 1926 ORER. In the Live Poultry Transit Co. listing, there is no mention of LPTC. It's LPTX. L. P. T. X., actually. There are massive listings in the back of the book for privately owned cars, and it's awash with "X"'s. I DID find the H. J. Heinz listing, and THAT one does not end in X. It is shown as H. J. H. Co.
My suspicion is that it was around 1926 when the "X" became required. Previously, it appears to have been optional, although hugely widespread in 1926. It is interesting that Heinz is listed in the index at the front of the book, but there are NO reporting marks shown. I guess there's required, and then there's required. In the January 1939 listing for Heinz, it says: Cars marked (Temporary Marks) "H. J. H. Co." (Reporting Marks--"H. J. H. X.")... So those temporary marks lingered for at least 13 years. In the listing for Live Poultry, it notes "Total, 2200 cars." Car numbers are said to range from 399 to 3599. There is no mention of names on cars. With 2200 cars, it would likely have been an irritation. Ed Edward Sutorik |
|
|
|
Re: FSA/OWI photos - Omaha 1938, 1941
Rock Island modified a number of old class B1 double sheathed boxcars, from
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
circa 1910,to use as transfer cabooses at various terminals. Some even had the proverbial park bench on the roof. They were numbered in the low 19xxx range. See this example from 1946. Steve Hile -----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of William Hirt Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2020 1:54 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] FSA/OWI photos - Omaha 1938, 1941 If you download the super high resolution version, there is a window in the car end along with the side. This looks to me like a boxcar that has been converted to MOW service. Sunkist Flour is painted on the building behind the CGW. This would suggest this facility is associated with Maney Milling Company in Omaha as that was their brand name for their flour. Bill Hirt On 4/12/2020 12:04 PM, Paul Krueger wrote: I was looking at photos on the Library of Congress website and found |
|
|
|
Re: Utah Coal Route steel gons in log service
Tony Thompson
Richard Townsend wrote:
But the really tall ones were not on the Olympic Peninsula. BTW, Richard is right to mention how thick they were in old age. Some were 60 feet or more in circumference. Tony Thompson |
|
|
|
SP&S Freight Cars from Salvaged Freight Cars
David
N&W 84300 to SP&S X-356 (Ice car, end bunkers removed), MOW, AFE 7617, June 1945Something is wrong here. N&W 84300 was a 50-ton twin hopper in 1945. David Thompson |
|
|
|
Re: FSA/OWI photos - Omaha 1938, 1941
Allen Cain
Could this be an early tank car caring oil or some other product? I worked in a smelter and there is no way anything remotely associated with with food should be within miles of those fumes. Allen Cain |
|
|
|
Re: FSA/OWI photos - Omaha 1938, 1941
William Hirt
From the Sanborn maps, it appears that L Street is the overpass.
That places the station along the UP tracks which UP called the
Old Main Line. The UP is the nearest 3 tracks to the station. The
station I am almost sure is UP's South Omaha station. The other
tracks belonged to Union Stock Yards Company. The stock yards are
to the left (west) of the photographer. Bill Hirt On 4/12/2020 12:52 PM, John Larkin via
groups.io wrote:
|
|
|
|
Re: Photo: Poultry Car
Jake Schaible
Cool image. Car name is "EGG", clearly seen above door in car attendant cabin. Word "Live" can also be seen in the sill under panel 3 from left, so agree with Eric. Perhaps somewhere is a list of LPTC (or X) car names, which might include more details?
|
|
|