Date   

Re: ATSF Mineral Brown

Norm Buckhart
 

On May 29, 2020, at 5:03 AM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

Ed was the color consultant for Tru Color, ergo Tru Color offers both freight car colors.
 
Nelson Moyer
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.ioOn Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 6:18 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF Mineral Brown
 

Ed Hawkins’ scan of ATSF paint samples from 1931 and 1945 (PPG) show a 'red shift'


the text in the center paragraph was written by Richard and gives the TCP numbers and dates applied:




On 5/28/2020 8:15 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
otto kroutil wrote:
 
Tru-scale markets two shades of Santa Fe Mineral Brown, what they call pre and post ‘45 versions, with the latter somewhat more red. Richard Hendrickson’s SFRy. Painting and Lettering Guide by the old SFMO has no such distinction, although it does note Mineral Brown varied from shop to shop over the years somewhat. Was there a change of specs at the end of WWII, or just incidental variations due to regional supplier and manufacturer differences?
 
     Richard did not believe the Santa Fe changed its Mineral Brown color in 1945, though he freely acknowledged that shop applications varied.
 
Tony Thompson

-- 
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts



Re: PRR 254288

Clark Propst
 

I checked with the person that owns the train lists. Never thought about the fact that the list are past this groups end date...He found 3-4 more cars returning and a few cars coming north with loads. Silica sand most were fertilizer materials. Nice to know there's a reason for guys modeling this area to have one of these cars.
CW Propst 


Cable Reel Loads

Bruce Smith
 

Folks,

I have some questions about Cable Reels as loads for steam era freight cars. 

I have a Sunshine PRR G27 gondola kit that was packaged with a kit for 18 steel cable reels. I model 1944. When did steel cable reels come into use?

This kit has a nice set of decals for cable reel labels, but when I search GOOGLE, all the steel reels seem to have very little labeling. Indeed, it looks like it might be tough to apply the decals to these reels anyway, since they have ribs on the outside and the only photo photo I have seen with a label (Okonite), has it on a placard attached to the ribs. Were steel cable reels commonly labeled in the steam era? Photos? 

If the decals don't work for the steel reels, I'll repurpose them for the wood reels I have. The decal set included is pretty comprehensive and amazing. Are there other decal sets to label cable reels?

Regards,
Bruce 
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: Evangeline Railway

Paul Doggett
 

Jim

Thank you I will pass this onto my friend.

Paul Doggett.

On 29 May 2020, at 13:44, Jim Ogden <sjogden@att.net> wrote:

I think Gifford Hill operated a gravel pit in Evangeline parish (that’s a county elsewhere) and this is fairly close to where a north-south Rock Island joined the East-west Gulf Coast Lines (Frisco in B.F. Yoakum days but later Mopac and UP). This has a lot of modeling possibilities.

This gravel operation would make a great connection for a model railroad circa 1950 with a healthy appetite for the F&C T&NO gons, along with MoPac/TP or Rock Island. I think the F&C MoPac panel side gons now have an interior. Sunshine Models did the TP 40’ gons but today the best bet is to modify Accurail’s kit.

Jim Ogden
(Who escaped Louisiana)



Re: Evangeline Railway

Jim Ogden
 

I think Gifford Hill operated a gravel pit in Evangeline parish (that’s a county elsewhere) and this is fairly close to where a north-south Rock Island joined the East-west Gulf Coast Lines (Frisco in B.F. Yoakum days but later Mopac and UP). This has a lot of modeling possibilities.

This gravel operation would make a great connection for a model railroad circa 1950 with a healthy appetite for the F&C T&NO gons, along with MoPac/TP or Rock Island. I think the F&C MoPac panel side gons now have an interior. Sunshine Models did the TP 40’ gons but today the best bet is to modify Accurail’s kit.

Jim Ogden
(Who escaped Louisiana)


Re: A Bad Day For PRR Boxcar 566640

Bruce Smith
 

Ben,

Cool and yes, not "BALLAST"... definitely my brain jumping to conclusions there 😉. 

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Ben Sullivan <ben.sullivan75@...>
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 7:08 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] A Bad Day For PRR Boxcar 566640
 
The Temple Library web viewer has a neat function allowing you to rotate the photo by 90 degrees - handy to view this upside-down car! I don't see markings for ballast - perhaps you are seeing the "BALTIMORE AND OHIO"  which would be at the top left of the car. I also see the KY 12 48 indicating its inspection at Keyser, WV shops in Dec 1948. (I believe)

I'd say this is definitely some variant of a covered hopper given the markings, the number (630121) and the unloading apparatus on the bottom. (the four square chutes.) The rivets for the slope sheet is visible on the left. What I don't see, and what is puzzling to me (given my lack of reference material) is that there is no visible riveting for the inner, center slope sheet. The "upside-down V" normally seen on the sides of covered hoppers. Instead there are four rows of rivets along the bottom. 

There's definitely a visible squared off roof line/top edge, so it's not a wagon top, although the wagon top covered hoppers had very similar numbers. See some of the N-34 prototype photos on Spring Mills Depot's page: http://www.springmillsdepot.com/n-34prototypephotos.htm
N-31 630200 builders photo for reference http://rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo630200ago.jpg
Unk class 630874 http://rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo630874ago.jpg

I dunno. Perhaps someone with the B&O freight car diagrams can home in on the class. Too bad the retoucher took so much liberty. :)
--
Ben Sullivan
Brookeville, MD


Re: A Bad Day For PRR Boxcar 566640

 

The Temple Library web viewer has a neat function allowing you to rotate the photo by 90 degrees - handy to view this upside-down car! I don't see markings for ballast - perhaps you are seeing the "BALTIMORE AND OHIO"  which would be at the top left of the car. I also see the KY 12 48 indicating its inspection at Keyser, WV shops in Dec 1948. (I believe)

I'd say this is definitely some variant of a covered hopper given the markings, the number (630121) and the unloading apparatus on the bottom. (the four square chutes.) The rivets for the slope sheet is visible on the left. What I don't see, and what is puzzling to me (given my lack of reference material) is that there is no visible riveting for the inner, center slope sheet. The "upside-down V" normally seen on the sides of covered hoppers. Instead there are four rows of rivets along the bottom. 

There's definitely a visible squared off roof line/top edge, so it's not a wagon top, although the wagon top covered hoppers had very similar numbers. See some of the N-34 prototype photos on Spring Mills Depot's page: http://www.springmillsdepot.com/n-34prototypephotos.htm
N-31 630200 builders photo for reference http://rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo630200ago.jpg
Unk class 630874 http://rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo630874ago.jpg

I dunno. Perhaps someone with the B&O freight car diagrams can home in on the class. Too bad the retoucher took so much liberty. :)
--
Ben Sullivan
Brookeville, MD


Re: ATSF Mineral Brown

Nelson Moyer
 

Ed was the color consultant for Tru Color, ergo Tru Color offers both freight car colors.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 6:18 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF Mineral Brown

 


Ed Hawkins' scan of ATSF paint samples from 1931 and 1945 (PPG) show a 'red shift'



On 5/28/2020 8:15 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

otto kroutil wrote:
 
Tru-scale markets two shades of Santa Fe Mineral Brown, what they call pre and post ‘45 versions, with the latter somewhat more red. Richard Hendrickson’s SFRy. Painting and Lettering Guide by the old SFMO has no such distinction, although it does note Mineral Brown varied from shop to shop over the years somewhat. Was there a change of specs at the end of WWII, or just incidental variations due to regional supplier and manufacturer differences?
 
     Richard did not believe the Santa Fe changed its Mineral Brown color in 1945, though he freely acknowledged that shop applications varied.
 
Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Photo: Buckeye Steel Transfer Gondola

Matt Goodman
 

It’s great to hear the information I was given was incorrect. Thanks, Mark. 

Matt Goodman
Columbus, Ohio

Sent from my mobile

On May 28, 2020, at 8:26 PM, mark_landgraf via groups.io <mark_landgraf@...> wrote:

The intellectual property was acquired by Amsted of Chicago. The drawings and microfilm remain in tact and accessible. 

Mark Landgraf
Albany NY


On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 7:19 PM, Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
<schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

Well, thanks Matt, for the answer.  But what a crushing blow to know that all that information is lost to history.

 

One thing I was interested in was the drawings of the one-piece locomotive frames that Commonwealth made in the steam era.  It is my understanding that the technology to make those is lost, and cannot be reproduced today.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Matt Goodman via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 7:05 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Buckeye Steel Transfer Gondola

 

Schuyler, 

 

The plant’s environmental manager took the president of the club and I through Buckeye's office building about a year after the facility had been purchased at bankruptcy auction and shortly before it started being dismantled. To her credit, she was concerned that a lot of history would be lost in the rubble and was hoping we could help rescue things of value (either directly or through people we knew).

 

I asked about specifically about drawings. Buckeye (then Columbus Steel Castings) had would have had some very interesting casting drawings though their and their predecessors work (including locomotive frames and steam era freight car trucks and couplers). Her story was that the winning bidder (a competitor in the industry) had immediately taken possession of the IP (drawings, etc.) and destroyed them, for reasons I don’t quite understand. What a loss. 

 

I picked up some grounds drawings that day, and other materials were later rescued by the local historical society. Again, as far as I know, the really cool stuff went to the the shredder. With luck the “shredder” means some bigwig took them into their personal collection!

 

Matt Goodman

Columbus, Ohio US

 

On May 23, 2020, at 5:51 PM, Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

 

Not about the car in the subject line . . .

 

Were the records of Buckeye (and Columbus Steel Castings) preserved at all?  I don’t remember what I was after – might have been for a locomotive driver center -  but I once contacted them and they said if I >>REALLY<< needed it, they had the drawings I was interested in at the time, but it would probably take a couple man days to locate them.  Was I willing to pay for that?

 

Ah, nooooo.

 

But I still wonder if they were preserved.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Matt Goodman via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 1:21 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Buckeye Steel Transfer Gondola

 

The amazing thing was that Columbus Steel Castings (the successor to Buckeye) was the largest steel foundry under one roof in North America in the last couple of decades.  Not something you normally associate Columbus with. 

 

My model railroad club, on which I pulled steam era freight cars, was on the grounds (in the old ARMCO executive building) from 1969 until 2016-ish, when we were finally asked to leave, so I’ve long had a soft spot for the facility. 

Matt Goodman

Columbus, Ohio

 

Sent from my mobile


On May 23, 2020, at 1:09 PM, Riverboy via groups.io <river_dweller_ohio@...> wrote:



Beautiful photo.

 

It's interesting to note that over the last year, ALL of the Buckeye Steel buildings have been torn down, and the entire property is being cleaned up and will eventually be redeveloped. I moved from Massachusetts to Ohio in 1993 when I was 25, and moved just south of Columbus in 1995 when I bought my house, and after over 20 years of seeing the complex there, busy with all kinds of activity, along with a smell that was a lot like a burning clutch or burning brakes, the property is now vacant and void of all the structures. It looks so "wrong". Kind of sad in a way. A lot of history is now gone.

 

Tod C Dwyer

 

Lockbourne/Shadeville Ohio

 

On Saturday, May 23, 2020, 12:54:21 PM EDT, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote: 

 

 

Photo: Buckeye Steel Transfer Gondola

An undated photo from the Columbus Metropolitan Library:

https://digital-collections.columbuslibrary.org/digital/collection/memory/id/71933/rec/2728

This is a very clear photo and can be enlarged quite a bit.

My thanks to Bill West on the PRR Group for the link tip.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

 


Freight cars on the workbench

Eric Hansmann
 

My latest blog post shares updates on a few freight car projects, plus car reweigh details for the 1920s. It's been a busy month on my workbench.

Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


Re: ATSF Mineral Brown

Tim O'Connor
 


Ed Hawkins' scan of ATSF paint samples from 1931 and 1945 (PPG) show a 'red shift'



On 5/28/2020 8:15 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
otto kroutil wrote:

Tru-scale markets two shades of Santa Fe Mineral Brown, what they call pre and post ‘45 versions, with the latter somewhat more red. Richard Hendrickson’s SFRy. Painting and Lettering Guide by the old SFMO has no such distinction, although it does note Mineral Brown varied from shop to shop over the years somewhat. Was there a change of specs at the end of WWII, or just incidental variations due to regional supplier and manufacturer differences?

     Richard did not believe the Santa Fe changed its Mineral Brown color in 1945, though he freely acknowledged that shop applications varied.

Tony Thompson

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Evangeline Railway

Paul Doggett
 

John 

Thank you I will pass that on he lives in Louisiana.

Paul Doggett 


On 29 May 2020, at 04:14, John Barry <northbaylines@...> wrote:


Paul,

According the the April 44 list of open and prepaid stations, the Evangaline ran from Belle Chaney through Brian to Greer Louisianna.  All three stations were listed as intrastate traffic only.  Only Greer had an agent, all freight to Belle Chaney or Brian had to be pre-paid except for that consigned to Gifford-Hill & Co, Inc. which could be billed collect and charges settled with the agent at Greer.

I hope that helps your friend.

John

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736


On Thursday, May 28, 2020, 09:35:00 AM EDT, Paul Doggett via groups.io <paul.doggett2472@...> wrote:


Hi
I know this is a bit of subject but asking for a friend. Where did the Evangeline Railway run to and from?

Thank you
Paul Doggett    England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿



Re: Evangeline Railway

John Barry
 

Paul,

According the the April 44 list of open and prepaid stations, the Evangaline ran from Belle Chaney through Brian to Greer Louisianna.  All three stations were listed as intrastate traffic only.  Only Greer had an agent, all freight to Belle Chaney or Brian had to be pre-paid except for that consigned to Gifford-Hill & Co, Inc. which could be billed collect and charges settled with the agent at Greer.

I hope that helps your friend.

John

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736


On Thursday, May 28, 2020, 09:35:00 AM EDT, Paul Doggett via groups.io <paul.doggett2472@...> wrote:


Hi
I know this is a bit of subject but asking for a friend. Where did the Evangeline Railway run to and from?

Thank you
Paul Doggett    England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿



Re: Photo: MC Automobile Boxcar 93033

Todd Sullivan
 

I think that MC auto boxcar is similar or the same as the Westerfield kits here

https://id18538.securedata.net/westerfieldmodels.com/merchantmanager/index.php?cPath=98_295

Todd Sullivan


Re: help locating online sratchbuilding supplies

Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

The "he" at Des Plaines Hobbies was Ron Sebastian whom we tragically lost late last summer.
Is his widow, Susan,, running the store now?  Don't know but she has always been as pleasant
to work with as Ron always was.

Don Valentine


Re: Photo: MC Automobile Boxcar 93033

Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

   Is that not an Al Westerfield special or is it the next earlier style? Can't recall.

Don Valentine


Re: Seeking Photo Help:

Patrick Wade
 

On page 157 of McCall’s “Coach, Cabbage & Caboose” this formula from the Cleburne coach shop for mineral brown is 2 quarts, 1 1/2 pints locomotive Dulux Black 1 gallon  1 1/2 pints of Signal Read. Pullman Green 1 quart 1 pint Baltic Blue, 1 quart 1 1/2 pints Area Yellow. No date is given but since the formulas were for rider coaches and driver cabooses it probably pre 1945. 

Pat Wade 
Santa Barbara, CA


On May 28, 2020, at 6:08 PM, WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...> wrote:



I am looking for a photo that clearly shows the attachment of the lateral running boards on a Santa Fe Bx36 boxcar.

Thanks in advance for any help:

Bill Pardie



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


Seeking Photo Help:

WILLIAM PARDIE
 


I am looking for a photo that clearly shows the attachment of the lateral running boards on a Santa Fe Bx36 boxcar.

Thanks in advance for any help:

Bill Pardie



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


Re: Photo: Buckeye Steel Transfer Gondola

mark_landgraf
 

The intellectual property was acquired by Amsted of Chicago. The drawings and microfilm remain in tact and accessible. 

Mark Landgraf
Albany NY


On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 7:19 PM, Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
<schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

Well, thanks Matt, for the answer.  But what a crushing blow to know that all that information is lost to history.

 

One thing I was interested in was the drawings of the one-piece locomotive frames that Commonwealth made in the steam era.  It is my understanding that the technology to make those is lost, and cannot be reproduced today.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Matt Goodman via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 7:05 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Buckeye Steel Transfer Gondola

 

Schuyler, 

 

The plant’s environmental manager took the president of the club and I through Buckeye's office building about a year after the facility had been purchased at bankruptcy auction and shortly before it started being dismantled. To her credit, she was concerned that a lot of history would be lost in the rubble and was hoping we could help rescue things of value (either directly or through people we knew).

 

I asked about specifically about drawings. Buckeye (then Columbus Steel Castings) had would have had some very interesting casting drawings though their and their predecessors work (including locomotive frames and steam era freight car trucks and couplers). Her story was that the winning bidder (a competitor in the industry) had immediately taken possession of the IP (drawings, etc.) and destroyed them, for reasons I don’t quite understand. What a loss. 

 

I picked up some grounds drawings that day, and other materials were later rescued by the local historical society. Again, as far as I know, the really cool stuff went to the the shredder. With luck the “shredder” means some bigwig took them into their personal collection!

 

Matt Goodman

Columbus, Ohio US

 

On May 23, 2020, at 5:51 PM, Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

 

Not about the car in the subject line . . .

 

Were the records of Buckeye (and Columbus Steel Castings) preserved at all?  I don’t remember what I was after – might have been for a locomotive driver center -  but I once contacted them and they said if I >>REALLY<< needed it, they had the drawings I was interested in at the time, but it would probably take a couple man days to locate them.  Was I willing to pay for that?

 

Ah, nooooo.

 

But I still wonder if they were preserved.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Matt Goodman via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 1:21 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Buckeye Steel Transfer Gondola

 

The amazing thing was that Columbus Steel Castings (the successor to Buckeye) was the largest steel foundry under one roof in North America in the last couple of decades.  Not something you normally associate Columbus with. 

 

My model railroad club, on which I pulled steam era freight cars, was on the grounds (in the old ARMCO executive building) from 1969 until 2016-ish, when we were finally asked to leave, so I’ve long had a soft spot for the facility. 

Matt Goodman

Columbus, Ohio

 

Sent from my mobile


On May 23, 2020, at 1:09 PM, Riverboy via groups.io <river_dweller_ohio@...> wrote:



Beautiful photo.

 

It's interesting to note that over the last year, ALL of the Buckeye Steel buildings have been torn down, and the entire property is being cleaned up and will eventually be redeveloped. I moved from Massachusetts to Ohio in 1993 when I was 25, and moved just south of Columbus in 1995 when I bought my house, and after over 20 years of seeing the complex there, busy with all kinds of activity, along with a smell that was a lot like a burning clutch or burning brakes, the property is now vacant and void of all the structures. It looks so "wrong". Kind of sad in a way. A lot of history is now gone.

 

Tod C Dwyer

 

Lockbourne/Shadeville Ohio

 

On Saturday, May 23, 2020, 12:54:21 PM EDT, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote: 

 

 

Photo: Buckeye Steel Transfer Gondola

An undated photo from the Columbus Metropolitan Library:

https://digital-collections.columbuslibrary.org/digital/collection/memory/id/71933/rec/2728

This is a very clear photo and can be enlarged quite a bit.

My thanks to Bill West on the PRR Group for the link tip.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

 


Re: ATSF Mineral Brown

Tony Thompson
 

otto kroutil wrote:

Tru-scale markets two shades of Santa Fe Mineral Brown, what they call pre and post ‘45 versions, with the latter somewhat more red. Richard Hendrickson’s SFRy. Painting and Lettering Guide by the old SFMO has no such distinction, although it does note Mineral Brown varied from shop to shop over the years somewhat. Was there a change of specs at the end of WWII, or just incidental variations due to regional supplier and manufacturer differences?
Richard did not believe the Santa Fe changed its Mineral Brown color in 1945, though he freely acknowledged that shop applications varied.

Tony Thompson
tony@signaturepress.com

9741 - 9760 of 183358