Date   

More C&O MW Cars

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Friends,

Here's a collection of C&O's ex-Pullman troop sleepers in MW service. Not exactly freight cars, but IIRC we agreed MW cars counted. The Allied Full Cushion truck appears to be from a different car than any pictured here.

IIRC, some of these cars were used by the C&O for express or mail storage. 910239 is probably one of these, and hey!, it's a boxcar (of sorts). Note that the numbers on this car, 911150 and 911153 are in white. So much for system standards.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆


Re: Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Yup.  Built at the same time, in 1951, were the 500 of the 12000 X-3W’s by ACF numbered 49000 – 49499.

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2020 1:41 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

 

Steve,

 

Is 49125 one of the 12K X-3 cars mentioned above. This car looks like the Red Caboose model on steroids. Also attached is DODX 12100, the class from which the RC model represents. This would be substantially the same car as the UTLX 39000 series.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff  🦆

 

On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 10:31 AM Steve and Barb Hile <shile@...> wrote:

Garth is correct, I did overlook a couple of line items, which I will add below in Red.

 

Thanks,

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2020 4:55 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

 

Steve, 

 

Nice list, but you forgot that UTLX bought 500 welded ACF 10K cars in 1951, their series 39000-39499. Richard Hendrickson identified the often-lamented Red Caboose model as a suitable representation of these cars.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff  🦆

 

On Sat, May 30, 2020 at 10:01 PM Steve and Barb Hile <shile@...> wrote:

I suspect that I have done this exercise a time or two before.  There is much more detail in the UTLX book.  Personally, I am drawn to model 1952, so it is good to have both the UTLX record and the 1955 Tank Car Tariff to make comparisons.

 

In round numbers in 1952, UTLX rostered about 41,000 tank cars.  The listings below account for about 38,000 of those and don’t include very small, very large or multi-compartment cars.

12,000 gallon Class X-3                    620 

12,000 gallon Class X-3W                500

10,000 gallon Class X-3                   10,561

10,000 gallon Class X-3W                500

8000 gallon Class X-3                       1923

6500 gallon Class X-3                       3838

10,000 gallon Class X                          972

8000 gallon Class X                           3156

6,500 gallon Class X                            605

10,000 gallon Class X-4                     493

11,000 gallon Class X-5-300           5302

11,000 gallon Class X-5-400             391                       Total UTLX design cars   28,861 cars

10,000 gallon Class Z                        3431

8000 gallon Class Z                           6761

11,000 gallon Class Z-5-300             382                       Total non-UTLX design cars          10,574 cars          Total      39485 cars

 

The only HO models of the UTLX design cars were/are the resin kits from Sunshine Models and, more recently, from Resin Car Works.  The Red Caboose 10,000 gallon welded tank car is quite close to the UTLX X-3W design.

 

UTLX purchased, new, at least 1000 of the 8000 gallon GATC designed cars (the Tangent car) and certainly acquired others of these through second hand purchases in the 1930’s.  They also purchased, new, some from Standard Tank Car Company, both 8000 and 10,000 gallon cars.  (Southern Car and Foundry underframe, but need horizontally riveted tanks.)

 

Second hand 8000 and 10,000 gallon ACF tank cars (the P2k Type 21 models) were also added to the fleet during the 1930’s.  There were almost no ACF Type 29 tank cars (the Intermountain cars) among the second hand purchases by UTLX.

 

Mostly in the rush to expand the roster of high pressure tank cars following WWII, UTLX also purchased ACF designed Z-5-300’s, like the Kadee car.

 

Steve Hile

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of pennsylvania1954
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 5:35 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

 

From all of Elden's research here in the archives, wouldn't GATX be more common than UTLX on these General American cars? I have more UTLX than I should, thanks to the P2K offerings, and not enough GATX which was the largest fleet circa my 1953. I have GATX decals coming from Black Cat.
--
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


Re: Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

vapeurchapelon
 

>> I would love to know it anyone has ever done this surgery and would love even more to see their results. <<
 
Hello Bill,
 
I did this 20 years ago, see attached pic. I found out that the side pieces are a little too short - see the small gap between the side and the end piece. At the other side I laid them "edge to edge".
I added brake rods and some piping - and laid the car away into its box. Long ago.
 
Greetings
 
Johannes
 
Gesendet: Sonntag, 31. Mai 2020 um 19:59 Uhr
Von: "Bill Welch" <fgexbill@...>
An: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car
I have to admit whenever I see a comment like ". . . it's pretty much an exact match to the Red Caboose model if you replace the running boards with open-grid steel. Plano makes an etched metal set for the model." tossed out I laugh to myself and also wench. I have two RC kids and two of the Plano etched running boards. They are on a shelf at eye level I walk by too many time a day to count and occasionally I will pause, open one of the RC boxes and look at the frame with the molded on running board for a few moments, say to myself "Not today" and put it back on the shelf. I just did it again just now. This is not minot model surgery in my opinion. I would love to know it anyone has ever done this surgery and would love even more to see their results.

Bill Welch


Re: Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Tim,

The teeth gnashing about this car was over all the fake-o roadnames RC and IM have issued it in. The list of prototypes for this car was very slim, according to Richard Hendrickson, and some of those he cited had surrounding dome platforms. I have built one (GATX, which is spurious--must repaint someday), and think it is a very nice model.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  

On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 1:07 PM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
Garth

I don't know about any lamentations... but it's pretty much an exact match to the Red Caboose model
if you replace the running boards with open-grid steel. Plano makes an etched metal set for the model.

The US Army (DOD) and UTLX were the largest buyers for the cars represented by the model. Perhaps
people lament inaccurate paint schemes, but then they'd be lamenting most of what is out there in hobbyland.

I think Red Caboose offered both Army and UTLX paint schemes. I know I sent pictures to Bill.



On 5/31/2020 5:54 AM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford wrote:
Steve, 

Nice list, but you forgot that UTLX bought 500 welded ACF 10K cars in 1951, their series 39000-39499. Richard Hendrickson
identified the often-lamented Red Caboose model as a suitable representation of these cars.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff  🦆


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

leakinmywaders
 

As I recall, on of my models I slightly increased the visible depth of the walkways (from side view) with a narrow styrene strip laminated to the outside and inside underside edges of the etchings. 

Chris Frissell 


Re: Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

leakinmywaders
 

Bill:  It's way easier than it looks. I've done two of the Plano conversions. It's fairly quick and painless.  More difficult than the walkway is relocating the brake equipment to the correct side of the car, for the UTLX cars that I found photos of.  I used to have model photos online, but think they didn't pass from yahoo to the io transporter room. My home files are temporarily out of reach, but I will try to shoot a pic or two today. 

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT 


Re: Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Steve,

Is 49125 one of the 12K X-3 cars mentioned above. This car looks like the Red Caboose model on steroids. Also attached is DODX 12100, the class from which the RC model represents. This would be substantially the same car as the UTLX 39000 series.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 10:31 AM Steve and Barb Hile <shile@...> wrote:

Garth is correct, I did overlook a couple of line items, which I will add below in Red.

 

Thanks,

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2020 4:55 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

 

Steve, 

 

Nice list, but you forgot that UTLX bought 500 welded ACF 10K cars in 1951, their series 39000-39499. Richard Hendrickson identified the often-lamented Red Caboose model as a suitable representation of these cars.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff  🦆

 

On Sat, May 30, 2020 at 10:01 PM Steve and Barb Hile <shile@...> wrote:

I suspect that I have done this exercise a time or two before.  There is much more detail in the UTLX book.  Personally, I am drawn to model 1952, so it is good to have both the UTLX record and the 1955 Tank Car Tariff to make comparisons.

 

In round numbers in 1952, UTLX rostered about 41,000 tank cars.  The listings below account for about 38,000 of those and don’t include very small, very large or multi-compartment cars.

12,000 gallon Class X-3                    620 

12,000 gallon Class X-3W                500

10,000 gallon Class X-3                   10,561

10,000 gallon Class X-3W                500

8000 gallon Class X-3                       1923

6500 gallon Class X-3                       3838

10,000 gallon Class X                          972

8000 gallon Class X                           3156

6,500 gallon Class X                            605

10,000 gallon Class X-4                     493

11,000 gallon Class X-5-300           5302

11,000 gallon Class X-5-400             391                       Total UTLX design cars   28,861 cars

10,000 gallon Class Z                        3431

8000 gallon Class Z                           6761

11,000 gallon Class Z-5-300             382                       Total non-UTLX design cars          10,574 cars          Total      39485 cars

 

The only HO models of the UTLX design cars were/are the resin kits from Sunshine Models and, more recently, from Resin Car Works.  The Red Caboose 10,000 gallon welded tank car is quite close to the UTLX X-3W design.

 

UTLX purchased, new, at least 1000 of the 8000 gallon GATC designed cars (the Tangent car) and certainly acquired others of these through second hand purchases in the 1930’s.  They also purchased, new, some from Standard Tank Car Company, both 8000 and 10,000 gallon cars.  (Southern Car and Foundry underframe, but need horizontally riveted tanks.)

 

Second hand 8000 and 10,000 gallon ACF tank cars (the P2k Type 21 models) were also added to the fleet during the 1930’s.  There were almost no ACF Type 29 tank cars (the Intermountain cars) among the second hand purchases by UTLX.

 

Mostly in the rush to expand the roster of high pressure tank cars following WWII, UTLX also purchased ACF designed Z-5-300’s, like the Kadee car.

 

Steve Hile

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of pennsylvania1954
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 5:35 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

 

From all of Elden's research here in the archives, wouldn't GATX be more common than UTLX on these General American cars? I have more UTLX than I should, thanks to the P2K offerings, and not enough GATX which was the largest fleet circa my 1953. I have GATX decals coming from Black Cat.
--
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


Re: Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

O Fenton Wells
 

For boxcars I switched to Kadee
Fenton

On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 2:17 PM Steve and Barb Hile <shile@...> wrote:

I did one back in about 2007, but using pieces of Tichy plastic running boards, rather than Plano.  The Plano always looks too thin and wavy for my taste/capabilities.  Here is a picture from the time

 

 

And the completed model

 

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Welch
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2020 1:00 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

 

I have to admit whenever I see a comment like ". . . it's pretty much an exact match to the Red Caboose model if you replace the running boards with open-grid steel. Plano makes an etched metal set for the model." tossed out I laugh to myself and also wench. I have two RC kids and two of the Plano etched running boards. They are on a shelf at eye level I walk by too many time a day to count and occasionally I will pause, open one of the RC boxes and look at the frame with the molded on running board for a few moments, say to myself "Not today" and put it back on the shelf. I just did it again just now. This is not minot model surgery in my opinion. I would love to know it anyone has ever done this surgery and would love even more to see their results.

Bill Welch



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


Re: Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

Bill Welch
 

Let us see photos of this Tim please so we can judge which we like.

Bill Welch


Re: Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

Tom Madden
 

On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 11:59 AM, Bill Welch wrote:
... whenever I see a comment like ". . . it's pretty much an exact match to the Red Caboose model if you replace the running boards with open-grid steel. Plano makes an etched metal set for the model." tossed out I laugh to myself and also wench. I have two RC kids.......
That's what happens when you wench.

Tom Madden
 


Re: Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

Tim O'Connor
 

Steve

Yes, Plano (and other etched stainless steel parts) are usually .010" while the correct thickness is .023".

When DA "flat wire" was available I would use CA to bond a piece of the flat wire to the bottom edge
to approximate the 2 inch thickness of the prototype (as seen from the side). This also stiffens it. It can be
done with styrene as well but without as much stiffness. The Tichy material is good but the size of the
grid is larger than the prototype. I haven't looked at Tangent's open grid materials with the idea of using
them instead, but maybe that's a possibility as well?


On 5/31/2020 2:17 PM, Steve and Barb Hile wrote:

I did one back in about 2007, but using pieces of Tichy plastic running boards, rather than Plano.  The Plano always looks too thin and wavy for my taste/capabilities.  Here is a picture from the time

 

 

And the completed model

 

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Welch
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2020 1:00 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

 

I have to admit whenever I see a comment like ". . . it's pretty much an exact match to the Red Caboose model if you replace the running boards with open-grid steel. Plano makes an etched metal set for the model." tossed out I laugh to myself and also wench. I have two RC kids and two of the Plano etched running boards. They are on a shelf at eye level I walk by too many time a day to count and occasionally I will pause, open one of the RC boxes and look at the frame with the molded on running board for a few moments, say to myself "Not today" and put it back on the shelf. I just did it again just now. This is not minot model surgery in my opinion. I would love to know it anyone has ever done this surgery and would love even more to see their results.

Bill Welch


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

Steve and Barb Hile
 

I did one back in about 2007, but using pieces of Tichy plastic running boards, rather than Plano.  The Plano always looks too thin and wavy for my taste/capabilities.  Here is a picture from the time

 

 

And the completed model

 

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Welch
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2020 1:00 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

 

I have to admit whenever I see a comment like ". . . it's pretty much an exact match to the Red Caboose model if you replace the running boards with open-grid steel. Plano makes an etched metal set for the model." tossed out I laugh to myself and also wench. I have two RC kids and two of the Plano etched running boards. They are on a shelf at eye level I walk by too many time a day to count and occasionally I will pause, open one of the RC boxes and look at the frame with the molded on running board for a few moments, say to myself "Not today" and put it back on the shelf. I just did it again just now. This is not minot model surgery in my opinion. I would love to know it anyone has ever done this surgery and would love even more to see their results.

Bill Welch


Re: ATSF Mineral Brown

Bob Chaparro
 

On another group Bill Jolitz commented, "...I have a drift card sample of PFE roof red.  It matches NONE of the reefers ever produced over the years."

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

Tim O'Connor
 


Bill just save the bolster/saddle and center sill and scratch build the rest of the frame. :-D
Once you start to remove the cast running boards, that's all you'll be left with. :-)
Surely not difficult for someone with your skills.

I did use Plano parts for the old Roundhouse modern tank car - which lacks a stub sill
entirely! But it was possible to scratch a replacement from Evergreen styrene parts.



On 5/31/2020 1:59 PM, Bill Welch wrote:
I have to admit whenever I see a comment like ". . . it's pretty much an exact match to the Red Caboose model if you replace the running boards with open-grid steel. Plano makes an etched metal set for the model." tossed out I laugh to myself and also wench. I have two RC kids and two of the Plano etched running boards. They are on a shelf at eye level I walk by too many time a day to count and occasionally I will pause, open one of the RC boxes and look at the frame with the molded on running board for a few moments, say to myself "Not today" and put it back on the shelf. I just did it again just now. This is not minot model surgery in my opinion. I would love to know it anyone has ever done this surgery and would love even more to see their results.

Bill Welch

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

Bill Welch
 

I have to admit whenever I see a comment like ". . . it's pretty much an exact match to the Red Caboose model if you replace the running boards with open-grid steel. Plano makes an etched metal set for the model." tossed out I laugh to myself and also wench. I have two RC kids and two of the Plano etched running boards. They are on a shelf at eye level I walk by too many time a day to count and occasionally I will pause, open one of the RC boxes and look at the frame with the molded on running board for a few moments, say to myself "Not today" and put it back on the shelf. I just did it again just now. This is not minot model surgery in my opinion. I would love to know it anyone has ever done this surgery and would love even more to see their results.

Bill Welch


Re: Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

Steve and Barb Hile
 

In 1920, UTLX purchased 1000 tank cars from General American to the GATC 1917 design, which is the Tangent car.  Originally, these cars were numbered 70000 – 70999 as the beginning of the 7xxxx series of car numbers representing the Class Z (non UTLX design) cars.  Fairly soon the cars were renumbered to 71000 and above to allow the 70xxx series to be used for 10000 gallon cars.  Other commercially built cars from Standard Tank Car Company and Pennsylvania Tank Car Company were also inserted in 7xxxx series.  From the late 1920’s through the 1930’s (and beyond) both UTLX and GATC acquired the fleets of smaller oil tank cars and assimilated them into their fleets.  For UTLX this included cars built by both ACF and GATC into the 7xxxx and other series, based on capacity and internal heaters, etc.

 

I hope that this is helpful.  There is a much more in the UTLX book published by Speedwitch, including lots of photographs!.  (Shameless plug.)

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mark Hemphill via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2020 11:46 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

 

Steve Hile:  I apologize for my ignorance about tank cars. I'm not following where the recently re-released Tangent GATC car fits in the summary UTLX roster you posted above. Could you advise, please.

Mark Hemphill


Re: CB&Q XM-30 boxcar

Chuck Cover
 

Group,

 

Some photos of the CB&Q XM-30 boxcar have a placard on the door with Burlington Route.  Does this have a black background or car color background?  Thanks

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM


Re: What is This Tank Body?

Tim O'Connor
 


It's an early tank car body - reminds me of very early "common standard" tank cars and also some Santa Fe
tank cars. I've attached Tom Madden's ATSF Tk-G-5 resin tank model for comparison.



On 5/31/2020 5:04 AM, Fred Jansz wrote:
Here's a more detailed pic of the car/tank in question
Fred Jansz
_._,_._,_


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Photos: NP Boxcars

Bob Chaparro
 

Photos: NP Boxcars

A circa 1915 photo from the Washington State Historical Society:

http://www.washingtonhistory.org/imu/api/file/1914

Description:

"View of the Sperry Flour Company mill in Tacoma, WA on the shoreline of Commencement Bay. Two water towers are on top of the building. Railroad tracks run between the bay and the building. Three railroad cars are on the track, with designation: Northern Pacific."

Another circa 1915 photo:

http://www.washingtonhistory.org/imu/api/file/1917

Description:

" View of Tacoma Grain Company's flour mill and warehouse on the shore of Commencement Bay in Tacoma, WA. Bay water is in lower right corner. Several railroad cars are on tracks between the buildings and the water, with sign on sides: Northern Pacific."

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Tangent GATC 8,000 Gallon 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

Tim O'Connor
 

Garth

I don't know about any lamentations... but it's pretty much an exact match to the Red Caboose model
if you replace the running boards with open-grid steel. Plano makes an etched metal set for the model.

The US Army (DOD) and UTLX were the largest buyers for the cars represented by the model. Perhaps
people lament inaccurate paint schemes, but then they'd be lamenting most of what is out there in hobbyland.

I think Red Caboose offered both Army and UTLX paint schemes. I know I sent pictures to Bill.



On 5/31/2020 5:54 AM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford wrote:
Steve, 

Nice list, but you forgot that UTLX bought 500 welded ACF 10K cars in 1951, their series 39000-39499. Richard Hendrickson
identified the often-lamented Red Caboose model as a suitable representation of these cars.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff  🦆


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

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