Date   

Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Youi gize are just full of questions:

 

Frac Sand:

https://www.blackmountainsand.com/resources/what-is-frac-sand/

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:52 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

Well, I said . . . “and probably further distinctions can be made of each . . .”

 

So, a fair question Elden, but Google is your (and my) friend:

 

Foundry sand is quite interesting:

https://www.solexthermal.com/resources/articles/what-is-foundry-sand/

This page mentions “green sand” which it defines as Green Sand is silica sand.  Googling “green sand” gets you to what is apparently a literally green-colored sand for use in landscaping.  But that’s not what we’re talking about.,

 

Glass sand

https://www.sand.org/page/Glass_Production

a quite interesting page.  Click o “Industrial Sand” at the top of the page.   There are several basic materials that can be the constituent parts of glass sand, including quartz, lava, and desert sand.  Also click on “Research” for more interesting considerations.

 

Locomotive sand gets you to this page:

https://www.kremersand.com/specific-applications/railway-sand

which includes a de facto definition: a mixture of calibrated sand in various grain sizes, which is spread between the train wheels and the tracks.

 

As to shipment and rail cars used . . . well, my work here is done.

 

Schuyler

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:19 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

Schuyler;

 

From my research and experiences, there were some in my area that were important:  foundry sand, glass sand, “green” sand, and locomotive sand.

 

What were the properties that were important to those uses, and how would this affect shipment and cars used?

 

Thanks!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

There are two varieties of sand (and probably further distinctions can be made of each).  There’s beach sand, which is rounded grains (also what’s in the Sahara desert) from the wave (and wind) action.  I would surmise that variety of sand would need to be covered so it doesn’t blow away.

The other variety is angular sand, which comes from (typically) sand pits away from water.  Angular sand is required for use in concrete, as it will lock together with the cement matrix to form a solid durable structure.  I would guess that angular sand >might< be shipped without being covered as it would be less likely to blow away in transit.

 

And at this point I will point out one of my pet issues with the distinction between concrete and cement.  Cement is an element in making concrete.  Cement is not, directly, concrete.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of reporterllc via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2020 10:17 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

 

What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
Blockedhttp://www.erstwhilepublications.com


Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

Andy Carlson
 

So Schuyler, you are telling me Grannie was wrong to call her Beverly Hills' swimming pool "The Cement Pond"?????

Showing my age---Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

 

And at this point I will point out one of my pet issues with the distinction between concrete and cement.  Cement is an element in making concrete.  Cement is not, directly, concrete.

 

Schuyler

 


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Well, I said . . . “and probably further distinctions can be made of each . . .”

 

So, a fair question Elden, but Google is your (and my) friend:

 

Foundry sand is quite interesting:

https://www.solexthermal.com/resources/articles/what-is-foundry-sand/

This page mentions “green sand” which it defines as Green Sand is silica sand.  Googling “green sand” gets you to what is apparently a literally green-colored sand for use in landscaping.  But that’s not what we’re talking about.,

 

Glass sand

https://www.sand.org/page/Glass_Production

a quite interesting page.  Click o “Industrial Sand” at the top of the page.   There are several basic materials that can be the constituent parts of glass sand, including quartz, lava, and desert sand.  Also click on “Research” for more interesting considerations.

 

Locomotive sand gets you to this page:

https://www.kremersand.com/specific-applications/railway-sand

which includes a de facto definition: a mixture of calibrated sand in various grain sizes, which is spread between the train wheels and the tracks.

 

As to shipment and rail cars used . . . well, my work here is done.

 

Schuyler

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:19 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

Schuyler;

 

From my research and experiences, there were some in my area that were important:  foundry sand, glass sand, “green” sand, and locomotive sand.

 

What were the properties that were important to those uses, and how would this affect shipment and cars used?

 

Thanks!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

There are two varieties of sand (and probably further distinctions can be made of each).  There’s beach sand, which is rounded grains (also what’s in the Sahara desert) from the wave (and wind) action.  I would surmise that variety of sand would need to be covered so it doesn’t blow away.

The other variety is angular sand, which comes from (typically) sand pits away from water.  Angular sand is required for use in concrete, as it will lock together with the cement matrix to form a solid durable structure.  I would guess that angular sand >might< be shipped without being covered as it would be less likely to blow away in transit.

 

And at this point I will point out one of my pet issues with the distinction between concrete and cement.  Cement is an element in making concrete.  Cement is not, directly, concrete.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of reporterllc via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2020 10:17 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

 

What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
Blockedhttp://www.erstwhilepublications.com


Re: Photo: IC Boxcar 340844 & Others

Bob Chaparro
 

There are additional photos on the website showing temporary housing in freight cars due to the flooding.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

Andy Laurent
 

In Wisconsin, GB&W moved sand and gravel in open twin hoppers from online pits to a concrete batch plant in Green Bay well into the 1960s.  WSOR still does this today, moving both sand and gravel in open hoppers (until a couple years ago in railroad-owned conversions of 1958 cu ft LO's - similar to the new Bowser kit) from a pit north of Janesville to concrete plants in Burke, Middleton, and Monroe.

Andy L.
Madison WI


Re: Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

Eric Mumper
 

Victor,

As mentioned in another reply it depends on the end use.  The linked picture was taken at Utica, Ill. on the Rock Island and shows how foundry sand was shipped well into the covered hopper era.  This plant also produced high grade sand for glass which is ideal for covered hoppers.  This sand was so fine that bulk loading in a boxcar could result in much less reaching the destination - the stuff pours like water.  The few pictures I have seen in earlier times are mostly gons and quite probably bags loaded into boxcars.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/eP1Cjx5N6eqxh2GE9

Eric Mumper


Re: Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

Charles Morrill
 

The SP's El Paso steam era sand house received locomotive sand in ordinary SP GS class gons.  Weather was not a factor as the sand was dried in the sand house before being blown up into the delivery bins.

Charlie 


From: "reporterllc via groups.io" <reporterllc@...>
To: "main" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 9:17:06 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com


Re: Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

Eric Hansmann
 

It depends on how the sand will be used. Lots of sand for glass factories moved in boxcars, even into the mid-1960s. Clean sand was required for good quality glass. Impurities in the sand led to imperfections in the final product. Keep in mind the covered hoppers initially moved cement as they came into use.

 

Large plate glass operations most likely received covered hopper loads for the quantities needed in the post-WW2 years. These larger plants had receiving areas to ease material transfer from a covered hopper to interior storage. Smaller tableware glass operations had fewer inbounds to facilities that lacked modern material transfer elements.

 

Years ago a friend told me he worked at a glass factory in Weston, W. Va., circa early 1960s. I asked about inbound sand. He only recalled boxcars for the deliveries. Unloading was with a flat scoop and wheelbarrow. A full wheelbarrow would be navigated across a plank bridging the boxcar with the dock door. The load would be wheeled to an interior materials bin and dumped. The process was repeated until the car was unloaded.

 

I’ve reviewed many West Virginia glass factory images over the years. Some plants had covered trackside materials bins for sand unloading, still with the shovel. Some plants had a pit between the track and building with an auger to pull material into the building. A metal plate would cover this when not in use. Again, the sand would be hand-shoveled into the pit. Many operations were not upgraded in the post-WW2 years so this labor-intensive work continued to the close of operations. As plastics took over many outlets for glass production, these plants struggled along with fewer jobs before closing.

 

How sand was delivered would have probably been by customer request. If a lumberyard, concrete operation, or foundry needed clean sand, then it would have been delivered in an enclosed car. If impurities were not an issue, then an open gondola would work. Either way, I’m certain some of the load would be lost in transit if it wasn’t delivered in a covered hopper.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of reporterllc via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 9:17 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

 

What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com


Re: Train Station Products

Nelson Moyer
 

I found the TSP product catalog online and at the bottom is this note:

 

Train Station Products' are not sold directly to the retail public.

Please contact your local hobby store.

Note: All diesel engine parts (fans, truck sideframes, etc.) which

were manufactured an sold by Train Station Products' in the past

(Kit #20 through Kit #145) are now being manufacturered and sold

by Smokey Valley Railroad Products. The kit numbers have

remained the same with the exception of four (4) kits. Train Station

Products Kits #20, #98, #100, and #132 are now Smokey Valley

Railroad Products Kits #320, #398, #300, and #332, respectively.

 

I think that says it all, typo and misspelling included.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dan Miller
Sent: Friday, June 05, 2020 8:23 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Train Station Products

 

I made an order with Tom Scheid of NKP Car a few months ago, which included some Train Station Products passenger car core kits.  I asked about  an out-of-stock TSP product, and for contact information so I could get in touch with TSP directly, but Tom said that the owner at TSP "doesn't like to be contacted by customers."  As far as I know, there is no way to order directly from TSP.  I'd suggest getting in touch with a company that supplies TSP products to help you out.  From what I could tell, TSP is still manufacturing product.

 

Dan Miller

 

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:15 PM Scott <repairman87@...> wrote:

Yeah, I saw that but that's just a little bit of what they made.  I guess I was wondering if they had a website to order direct from.

Scott McDonald 

 


Re: Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

Ray Hutchison
 

not certain how many here would have heard of Tennessee Central Railroad (essentially Nashville east through Cookeville and Monterrey).  Early shipments included sand for construction.  It was shut down for many years until the recent boom in fracking... and there are weekly shipments of sand coming out of the mountains (or at least down from the eastern highland rim of the Cumberland Plateau).  I assume this is the coarse angular sand mentioned in earlier email. 

Interestingly enough, one of the major sand pits is across the street from a fundamentalist church.  I always wondered how people came out of the church and looked at the acres of sand across the street and wondered how it got there,

ray hutchison

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 12:14 PM O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
Cement is not concrete was drummed into my head when I was in the contracting business years ago.  

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:08 PM Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

There are two varieties of sand (and probably further distinctions can be made of each).  There’s beach sand, which is rounded grains (also what’s in the Sahara desert) from the wave (and wind) action.  I would surmise that variety of sand would need to be covered so it doesn’t blow away.

The other variety is angular sand, which comes from (typically) sand pits away from water.  Angular sand is required for use in concrete, as it will lock together with the cement matrix to form a solid durable structure.  I would guess that angular sand >might< be shipped without being covered as it would be less likely to blow away in transit.

 

And at this point I will point out one of my pet issues with the distinction between concrete and cement.  Cement is an element in making concrete.  Cement is not, directly, concrete.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of reporterllc via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2020 10:17 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

 

What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


Re: train station products

mel perry
 

as requested, hope it works, don't shoot
the messenger


;-)
mel perry

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:22 AM Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...> wrote:
Mel Perry wrote:
"i don't know how old this page is, but
read it carefully, google is our friend"

Link to the webpage instead of a gif would be helpful.


Ben Hom


Re: train station products

Benjamin Hom
 

Mel Perry wrote:
"i don't know how old this page is, but
read it carefully, google is our friend"

Link to the webpage instead of a gif would be helpful.


Ben Hom


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Schuyler;

 

From my research and experiences, there were some in my area that were important:  foundry sand, glass sand, “green” sand, and locomotive sand.

 

What were the properties that were important to those uses, and how would this affect shipment and cars used?

 

Thanks!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

There are two varieties of sand (and probably further distinctions can be made of each).  There’s beach sand, which is rounded grains (also what’s in the Sahara desert) from the wave (and wind) action.  I would surmise that variety of sand would need to be covered so it doesn’t blow away.

The other variety is angular sand, which comes from (typically) sand pits away from water.  Angular sand is required for use in concrete, as it will lock together with the cement matrix to form a solid durable structure.  I would guess that angular sand >might< be shipped without being covered as it would be less likely to blow away in transit.

 

And at this point I will point out one of my pet issues with the distinction between concrete and cement.  Cement is an element in making concrete.  Cement is not, directly, concrete.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of reporterllc via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2020 10:17 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

 

What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
Blockedhttp://www.erstwhilepublications.com


train station products

mel perry
 

i don't know how old this page is, but
read it carefully, google is our friend


Re: Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

O Fenton Wells
 

Cement is not concrete was drummed into my head when I was in the contracting business years ago.  


On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:08 PM Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

There are two varieties of sand (and probably further distinctions can be made of each).  There’s beach sand, which is rounded grains (also what’s in the Sahara desert) from the wave (and wind) action.  I would surmise that variety of sand would need to be covered so it doesn’t blow away.

The other variety is angular sand, which comes from (typically) sand pits away from water.  Angular sand is required for use in concrete, as it will lock together with the cement matrix to form a solid durable structure.  I would guess that angular sand >might< be shipped without being covered as it would be less likely to blow away in transit.

 

And at this point I will point out one of my pet issues with the distinction between concrete and cement.  Cement is an element in making concrete.  Cement is not, directly, concrete.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of reporterllc via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2020 10:17 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

 

What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


Re: Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

Schuyler Larrabee
 

There are two varieties of sand (and probably further distinctions can be made of each).  There’s beach sand, which is rounded grains (also what’s in the Sahara desert) from the wave (and wind) action.  I would surmise that variety of sand would need to be covered so it doesn’t blow away.

The other variety is angular sand, which comes from (typically) sand pits away from water.  Angular sand is required for use in concrete, as it will lock together with the cement matrix to form a solid durable structure.  I would guess that angular sand >might< be shipped without being covered as it would be less likely to blow away in transit.

 

And at this point I will point out one of my pet issues with the distinction between concrete and cement.  Cement is an element in making concrete.  Cement is not, directly, concrete.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of reporterllc via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2020 10:17 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

 

What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com


Re: PFE R-30/40-9 reefer

Richard Bale <Rhbale@...>
 

Hi Eric...

Does the new WP reefer include decals?
Can you expand a bit on the detail parts including what type/brand of brake wheel?
Thanks
Richard

In a message dated 6/5/2020 4:20:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, eric@... writes:

Resin Car Works has added a PFE reefer to our kit line. Our latest blog post has the details.

Eric Hansmann
RCW web guy


Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

reporterllc
 

What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com


Re: Train Station Products

Dan Miller
 

I made an order with Tom Scheid of NKP Car a few months ago, which included some Train Station Products passenger car core kits.  I asked about  an out-of-stock TSP product, and for contact information so I could get in touch with TSP directly, but Tom said that the owner at TSP "doesn't like to be contacted by customers."  As far as I know, there is no way to order directly from TSP.  I'd suggest getting in touch with a company that supplies TSP products to help you out.  From what I could tell, TSP is still manufacturing product.

Dan Miller


On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 6:15 PM Scott <repairman87@...> wrote:
Yeah, I saw that but that's just a little bit of what they made.  I guess I was wondering if they had a website to order direct from.

Scott McDonald 


Re: Paint Booth

Daniel Brewer <drbnd@...>
 

Hi all,
I bought a bilge fan for less than $20 via Walmart’s website. It’s for exhausting fuel fumes from boats, so very safe. Booth made from 1/2” foam core tacked together with hot glue. Light, portable, and cheap to replace.
Dan