Date   

Re: Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

John Barry
 

Vic,

As you've heard, it depends . . .

But I can add two seemingly unusual sand shipments into Richmond California circa 1942.  In one, actually a large steady stream of cars, ATSF received locomotive sand on the Richmond Sand House trestle in SP GS gondolas.  You normally think of company material arriving in home road equipment. But the closest source was in Monterey on the SP. Monterey Sand Sources 

A few photos of the SP gons at the ATSF sand house in Richmond:




The other is Foundry Sand from upstate New York.  Coal to Newcastle you ask?  No, WWII had just cut off coastal shipping and a Richmond foundry had been getting a very specific sand for their molds from a source in New York, shipped in bulk.  When they found their transportation line cut, they turned to the railroads, only to object to the comparatively high cost of rail haulage.  They filed a rate case with the ICC and lost. 

 


John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736


On Tuesday, June 16, 2020, 12:56:28 PM EDT, reporterllc via groups.io <reporterllc@...> wrote:


What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com


Re: 2-56 tap drill (was Re: UMM Tools)

steve_wintner
 

I'm pretty confident McMaster Carr has what you want, for a reasonable price.


Re: K4 Decals: Anyone Have Experience With These?

Dave Parker
 

Bob, search the archives.  Plenty of discussion of K4.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


K4 Decals: Anyone Have Experience With These?

Bob Chaparro
 

K4 Decals: Anyone Have Experience With These?

Someone recommended this decal company to me.

https://k4decals.com/

Comments?

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


2-56 tap drill (was Re: UMM Tools)

Tim O'Connor
 


speaking of nice tools... Are there any good 2-56 tap drills out there for tapping steel? I've broken
my second Kadee 2-56 tap drill and with shipping buying a replacement set (includes other drill bits)
gets expensive... all I need is the tapered tap drill(s).




--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

Clark Propst
 

I'm good at passing blame :  )) Gene Green who transcribed the info from the M&StL's mechanical engineer's notes.
CW (wasn't me) Propst


Re: Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

Nelson Moyer
 

Thanks Rupert. My list doesn’t include HT-3 and HT-4 so I need the information on those for my hopper roster. Here’s what I have. Will you provide the missing data?

 

Class                           Series                    Built          Type      Brake Truck

HC-1                           180000-180199     1940-48     70 ton                               Klasing                  National

                                    180200-180299     1943          70 ton                                                             National

                                    180300-180399     1945          70 ton                               Universal              Double truss

                                    184000-180499     1946          70 ton                                                             Double truss            

                                    180500-180649     1948          70 ton                               Universal              Double truss            

HC-1A                        180650-180849     1951          70 ton                                                             Double truss

                                    180850-181049     1952          70 ton                               Miner                    Double truss

HT-1                           190000-190499     1926          55 ton     Perfection or Ajax                        Dalman

HT-2                           190500-190999     1927-28     55 ton                                                             #48

HT-5                           192000-192249     1936          55 ton

                                    192250-192499     1937          55 ton

                                    192500-192599     1938          55 ton

HT-5A Steel               192600-192849     1940          55 ton

                                    192850-193049     1941          55 ton

                                    193100-193199     1945          55 ton                                                             National

HT-5A Composite      193500-193749     1942-44     50 ton    

HT-5B                         189000-189649     1945          55 ton

                                    189650-189999     1946          55 ton

HT-5C                         188000-188999     1947-48     55 ton

HT-7 Composite         193500-193749     1943          55 ton                               Ajax                      double truss

HT-8 Composite         194000-194399     1944          50 ton     Ajax or Miner                          ASF (#65A)

                                    194400-194999     1944          50 ton     Ajax or Miner                          National

HT-10                         170000-170449     1948-49     70 ton                                                             #70

HT-10A                       170500-171099     1951          70 ton                                                             #73B                       

                                    171100-171849     1953          70 tom                                                            #83                          

 

In addition to adding new information, please feel free to make any corrections to the data I compiled.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rupert Gamlen
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 2:46 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

190000-191749 were twin hoppers in classes HT-1 to HT-4, built between 1926 and 1929 with an outside length of 35’ 1”.

190672 was an HT-2, built at Galesburg in 1927-8.

 

192000-193199 covered classes HT-5 and HT-5A built at Galesburg and Havelock between 1936 and 1945, basically identical to the earlier classes.
192362 was one of 300 built at Galesburg in 1936-7.

Rupert Gamlen


Re: Rapido PRR X31A Boxcar in HO

Gerald Henriksen
 

On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 14:41:31 -0500, you wrote:

Since Rapido is still in the early design phases they could add the X31b and gain a couple more road names and additional paint schemes.
They are long past the early design phase - tooling is almost
complete, samples hoped for by the end of the month (per the Rapido
Live event last Friday).

Someone did ask about the possibility of other roadnames like NP, to
which the response was if the X31A sold well then they would look into
tooling changes.

But it might also be worth mentioning that Rapido have said on these
live events that they are planning a lot more freight cars (from
various eras and regions) with probably another new one in the next
announcement, and then another in the following announcement (subject
to change of course).

So any good ideas/requests should be submitted to Rapido using the
form on their website, or try and get picked in a future Live session.


Union Refrigerator Transit Lines (URTX) 95503

Lester Breuer
 

I decided to add a couple of refrigerator cars to the fleet plus I wanted an easier build.  I have built the first of two Branchline Trains reefers .  If you are interested in the build of Union Refrigerator Transit Lines (URTX) 95503 including changes and addition of parts not in the kit.  Photos and writeup of the build process including painting and weathering are now available on my blog I have to share photos and writeup of modeling projects on my Minneapolis & Northland Railroad Company.   If you would like to take a look please do at the following link:

 

http://mnrailroadcab100.blogspot.com/

 

 

Lester Breuer

 


Re: Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

Tony Thompson
 

Todd Sullivan wrote:

The silica (the technical name for sand) has been shipped by covered hopper since the mid or late 1960s . . .

     Well, yes, the sand used for glassmaking is certainly silica, but most sand is by  no means pure silica. "Sand" is a term for finely divided rock, whatever the rock.
      Glass is almost entirely silica in any everyday application that we would call "glassware," but many other compositions (especially at Corning!) were produced, starting with glass sand.

Tony Thompson




Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

A&Y Dave in MD
 

Maybe not relevant (no sand was listed) by my database from 1934 Southern Railway in North Carolina includes the following (cement, plaster, and soda ash all in boxcars):
columns are
Road, car number, B for Boxcar, contents of car, waybilled destination, tons, type of car (notes from Al Brown).

C&O
82237
B
Cement
Elkin
50
40' SS 1-1/2D bx
SOU
169098
B
Cement
N Wilkesboro
50
36' DS bx: SU
SOU
157403
B
Cement
Elkin
76
36' DS bx: SU
NC&StL
14184
B
Cement
N Wilkesboro
57
36' Fowler bx
N&W
120552
B
Cement
Elkin
76
USRA SS bx: BK
N&W
51301
B
Cement
Elkin
76
40' DD stl bx: BS
N&B
787
B
Cement
K29
52
"USRA" stl bx
N&W
67730
B
Plaster
Burlington
42
40' SS 1½D bx: BL
C&O
82129
B
Cement
Elkin
50
40' SS 1-1/2D bx
C&G
3118
B
Soda Ash
Greensboro
61
40' SS bx
C&O
85537
B
Cement
K84
50
36' DS bx
CMStP&P
701047
B
Cement
K29
50
USRA SS bx
PRR
567563
B
Cement
W Salem
50
X29 bx
SOU
134300
B
Cement
K41
10
36' DS bx
N&W
50794
B
Plaster
Burlington
40
40' DD stl bx: BS
CNJ
20226
B
Plaster
W Salem
42
USRA SS bx: XMf
PRR
596143
B
Cement
W Salem
50
USRA SS bx: X26
B&O
277957
B
Cement
W Salem
50
 '23 ARA stl bx: M-26d
MP
91048
B
Soda Ash
Raleigh
47
"USRA" SS bx
N&B
774
B
Cement
W Salem
52
"USRA" stl bx
DL&W
42455
B
Soda Ash
K103
44
36' DS bx

There was also a lot of stone, gravel and clay (many so not listed), but to my surprise nothing labeled as sand or anything like it.  Might be the trains or the location.

Dave

Tuesday, June 16, 2020, 1:19:16 PM, you wrote:


Schuyler;
 
From my research and experiences, there were some in my area that were important:  foundry sand, glass sand, “green” sand, and locomotive sand.
 
What were the properties that were important to those uses, and how would this affect shipment and cars used?
 
Thanks!
 
Elden Gatwood
 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular
 
There are two varieties of sand (and probably further distinctions can be made of each).  There’s beach sand, which is rounded grains (also what’s in the Sahara desert) from the wave (and wind) action.  I would surmise that variety of sand would need to be covered so it doesn’t blow away.
The other variety is angular sand, which comes from (typically) sand pits away from water.  Angular sand is required for use in concrete, as it will lock together with the cement matrix to form a solid durable structure.  I would guess that angular sand >might< be shipped without being covered as it would be less likely to blow away in transit.
 
And at this point I will point out one of my pet issues with the distinction between concrete and cement.  Cement is an element in making concrete.  Cement is not, directly, concrete.
 
Schuyler
 
From: 
main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of reporterllc via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2020 10:17 PM
To: 
main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular
 
What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
Blockedhttp://www.erstwhilepublications.com



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC
--
____________________________
David Bott, modeling the A&Y in '34


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

Dennis Storzek
 

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:52 AM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
This page mentions “green sand” which it defines as Green Sand is silica sand.  Googling “green sand” gets you to what is apparently a literally green-colored sand for use in landscaping.  But that’s not what we’re talking about.,
Leave it to Google. "Green sand" in foundry terminology means it is used damp, like "green" wood, as opposed to core sand, which has different binders and is baked before the molded cores are placed in the green sand mold.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Photo: Boxcar Underframe

Dennis Storzek
 

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:16 AM, Bob Chaparro wrote:
Is it just me or do the two longitudinal frame members seem spaced unusually far apart?
Yes. It actually looks like a passenger car underframe; I wonder if it is an express car?

Dennis Storzek


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

CJ Riley
 

In Pittsburgh they were cement trucks to the Italian construction workers but concrete trucks to the rest. Often called “Italian ice cream!”




Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

Douglas Harding
 

Elden, the HM and HT are open hoppers. The GS & GBS are gons. The LO is one of the MSTL covered hoppers used for company sand. They only had 10 of these cars.

 

Also note that Clark has typed an extra 0 in the MSTL LO listing.

 

It is quite possible an error was contained in the handwritten documents from which Clark has transcribed into his spreadsheet.

 

From another source, on the MSTL:

7/6/1945 NH 60587 load of sand to Clare Iowa

 

7/13/1947 PRR 334732 sand to Iowa Highway Commission at Dallas Center IA

7/13/1947 NH 58108 sand to Iowa Highway Commission at Dallas Center IA

7/13/1947 MSTL 30423 sand to Iowa Highway Commission at Dallas Center IA

 

7/16/1947 MSTL 30291 Co sand

8/8/1947 CBQ 166113 sand to Grand Jct IA

 

MSTL 30423 & 30291 were GA all steel 41’ drop bottom gons

You’ll have to look up the other cars yourself.

 

Doug  Harding (another MSTL fan)

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:46 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

Very interesting, Clark.  Are you saying these were all gons?

 

Thanks!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Clark Propst
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 2:11 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

Below are some examples of sand cars. Beings this is an M&StL list there were lots of their GS gons. I only copied one.

RR

NO_

SERIES

TYPE1

CARGO

DATE

CB&Q

190672

190000-191749

HM

sand

10/2/59

CB&Q

192362

192000-193199

HM

sand

9/4/59

DTI

7023

7000-7299

GBS

sand

9/2/59

GN

74989

74500-74999

GS

sand       

"9-11-50"

IC

93646

92000-93749

HM

sand       

"7-28-50"

M&StL

30487

30001-30499

GS

sand

7/15/59

M&StL

65181

65001-65255

HM

sand

4/25/59

M&StL

66013

66001-66499

HT

sand       

"7-15-48"

M&StL

70005

700003-70017

LO

sand

6/19/59

WAB

37263

37000-37799

HM

sand

8/14/59

WAB

37552

37000-37799

HM

sand

9/28/59

WAB

37786

37000-37799

HM

sand

9/30/59


Re: Rapido PRR X31A Boxcar in HO

Bruce Smith
 

Charlie,

The X31B/C would need a new mold. Much easier to get X31s out of  the current mold with floor tubes and end fixtures (maybe an etched brass part?). The single door flush roof cars such as N&W would also require a completely new mold.

Regards,
Bruce


On Jun 16, 2020, at 2:41 PM, Charlie Vlk <cvlk@...> wrote:

All-
Since Rapido is still in the early design phases they could add the X31b and gain a couple more road names and additional paint schemes.
Perhaps the PRR people can chime in on any more secondhand or subsequent sales of the X31 types…..
(hoping that we will see them in N Scale in the future)
Charlie Vlk
 
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 2:16 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Rapido PRR X31A Boxcar in HO
 

Will Rapido paint them for Northern Pacific as ex-DT&I X31
b?

Different roof... too bad :-(

Tim O'Connor




On 6/12/2020 3:42 PM, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
They have just sent out an email announcing this car, both single and
double door, with tooling almost complete.
 
They will be doing a Facebook Live today at 6pm EDT to discuss them.
 
https://rapidotrains.com/products/ho-scale/freight-cars/ho-scale-prr-x31a-boxcar
 

-- 
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts



Re: Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

Douglas Harding
 

General Sand coming out of an open pit was exposed to the weather. So an open car, gon or hopper was the norm. Only specialty sands that were in bags or barrels would warrant a boxcar.

 

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of reporterllc via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 9:17 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

 

What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com


Re: Rapido PRR X31A Boxcar in HO

Bruce Smith
 

Tim,

In addition to my clinic? ;) Yes, the RP Cyc did articles on the PRR cars, the cars PRR sold and the non-PRR clones or near clones.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn Al

On Jun 16, 2020, at 3:06 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Is there documentation for the "inset" vs "flush" roof feature on the X31/X32 cars ? All of the NP
cars I've seen had the "flush" roofs.


On 6/16/2020 3:41 PM, Charlie Vlk wrote:
All-
Since Rapido is still in the early design phases they could add the X31b and gain a couple more road names and additional paint schemes.
Perhaps the PRR people can chime in on any more secondhand or subsequent sales of the X31 types…..
(hoping that we will see them in N Scale in the future)
Charlie Vlk


Re: Rapido PRR X31A Boxcar in HO

Tim O'Connor
 


Is there documentation for the "inset" vs "flush" roof feature on the X31/X32 cars ? All of the NP
cars I've seen had the "flush" roofs.


On 6/16/2020 3:41 PM, Charlie Vlk wrote:

All-

Since Rapido is still in the early design phases they could add the X31b and gain a couple more road names and additional paint schemes.

Perhaps the PRR people can chime in on any more secondhand or subsequent sales of the X31 types…..

(hoping that we will see them in N Scale in the future)

Charlie Vlk

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 2:16 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Rapido PRR X31A Boxcar in HO

 


Will Rapido paint them for Northern Pacific as ex-DT&I X31b?

Different roof... too bad :-(

Tim O'Connor



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

Rupert Gamlen
 

190000-191749 were twin hoppers in classes HT-1 to HT-4, built between 1926 and 1929 with an outside length of 35’ 1”.

190672 was an HT-2, built at Galesburg in 1927-8.

 

192000-193199 covered classes HT-5 and HT-5A built at Galesburg and Havelock between 1936 and 1945, basically identical to the earlier classes.
192362 was one of 300 built at Galesburg in 1936-7.

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Wednesday, 17 June 2020 7:00 am
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

Clark,

 

I looked up my Q hopper roster to get the car classes, and I don’t find series 190000-191749 listed as such. I found 19000-19499 (HT-1) and 190500-190999 (HT-2). The next class I have is 192000-192599 (HT-5), 192600-193049 and 193100-193199 (HT-5A steel), and 193500-193749 (HT-5A composite). I don’t show any Q hoppers numbered 191000-191999. I also don’t have any information about a HT-3 or HT-4 class, which possibly could fill in the 191000 -191999 series. Is it possible that 191749 is a typo? If not where did you get the 1910000 series information?

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Clark Propst
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:11 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

 

Below are some examples of sand cars. Beings this is an M&StL list there were lots of their GS gons. I only copied one.

RR

NO_

SERIES

TYPE1

CARGO

DATE

CB&Q

190672

190000-191749

HM

sand

10/2/59

CB&Q

192362

192000-193199

HM

sand

9/4/59

DTI

7023

7000-7299

GBS

sand

9/2/59

GN

74989

74500-74999

GS

sand       

"9-11-50"

IC

93646

92000-93749

HM

sand       

"7-28-50"

M&StL

30487

30001-30499

GS

sand

7/15/59

M&StL

65181

65001-65255

HM

sand

4/25/59

M&StL

66013

66001-66499

HT

sand       

"7-15-48"

M&StL

70005

700003-70017

LO

sand

6/19/59

WAB

37263

37000-37799

HM

sand

8/14/59

WAB

37552

37000-37799

HM

sand

9/28/59

WAB

37786

37000-37799

HM

sand

9/30/59