Re: What methods do you use to add weight to an empty flatcar?

Tony Thompson

Ted Culotta wrote:

I may be misunderstanding, Tony, but your calculation is "unfettered" whereas if you have a finite space to fill and you use larger rather than smaller "chunks" then you can't get as many in the finite space. I'll fit a pulverized sugar cube between center sills a lot more effectively than I will a solid sugar cube of the same volume.

Yes, obviously a space that can't take an integral number of large spheres will not fit this calculation. But if you choose any size sphere, for a space where they fit "end to end" as well as "side to side," the calculation of the empty volume is independent of sphere size.
Obviously if your sugar cube won't fit between the sills at all, then your argument is easily successful <g>. Note also that mixing sizes of the "bits" means that little ones can fill between the large ones, and the calculation for uniform spheres doesn't apply.
But we were talking about lead shot, which if small compared to the space to be filled certainly does match my calculation.

Tony Thompson

Book: Insulation Of Railway Equipment

Bob Chaparro

Book: Insulation Of Railway Equipment

Courtesy of the HathiTrust Digital Library, this is a link to a book published by the Union Fibre Company in 1912 on refrigerator car insulation:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112008409432&view=1up&seq=9

The book runs 130 pages and has a number of photos of period refrigerator cars, discussions on refrigerator car construction and insulation materials, illustrations, and tests of competing insulation materials used in PFE, Santa Fe and Northern Pacific refrigerator cars. There also is a section on the history of the refrigerator car to that point in time.

Bob Chaparro

Moderator

Railroad Citrus Industry Modeling Group

Railway Bull Shippers Group

https://groups.io/g/RailwayBullShippersGroup

Re: What methods do you use to add weight to an empty flatcar?

Daniel A. Mitchell

True, thus a much better solution is to mix the shot with the powder and fill the interstices.

That’s still true regardless of the material chosen, and yes, tungsten is much heavier than lead. Actual metallic tungsten is best, but is very hard to cut or shape except by grinding. Tungsten particles, powder, or putty sounds like good option. Another option is tungsten-carbide which is also heavy. The T-C grit is a common abrasive, and in chunks it is formed into cutting tools. Broken or dulled T-C "inserts” make good weights.

Dan MItchell
==========

On Jun 19, 2020, at 12:20 PM, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

Peter Weiglin wrote:

Weights and lead shot -- I started thinking (always dangerous).  Smallest shot packs more densely.  It follows that lead powder would be densest of all.

Actually, no. If all the shot is the same size, the PROPORTION of the space that is empty is identical for any chosen size. Of course the voids are much smaller with smaller shot, but there are many more of them.

Tony Thompson

Re: PRR X31A facts you want to know

Curt Fortenberry

If you emboss rivets in thin styrene sheets, an old plastic modelers
trick is to fill the dimples with putty. that way you stand less
chance of disturbing them with solvent.

Curt Fortenberry

Re: What methods do you use to add weight to an empty flatcar?

Ted Culotta

I may be misunderstanding, Tony, but your calculation is "unfettered" whereas if you have a finite space to fill and you use larger rather than smaller "chunks" then you can't get as many in the finite space. I'll fit a pulverized sugar cube between center sills a lot more effectively than I will a solid sugar cube of the same volume.

Cheers,
Ted

Ted Culotta
Speedwitch Media
P.O. Box 392, Guilford, CT 06437

Re: PRR X31A facts you want to know

Chuck Cover

Sounds like a good solution.  Thanks Ben

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM

Re: What methods do you use to add weight to an empty flatcar?

Tony Thompson

Peter Weiglin wrote:

Weights and lead shot -- I started thinking (always dangerous).  Smallest shot packs more densely.  It follows that lead powder would be densest of all.

Actually, no. If all the shot is the same size, the PROPORTION of the space that is empty is identical for any chosen size. Of course the voids are much smaller with smaller shot, but there are many more of them.

Tony Thompson

Re: What Is This Fellow Doing?

Dave Parker

To me, the most important detail in this photo is the absolutely shredded board that is the route-card holder.  A great case for adding this detail using basswood rather than styrene.  The grainier the better!
--
Dave Parker

Re: Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

Dave Parker

If you look at the Wiki pages for both Nash and Hudson/Essex, there is quite a bit of information about exports to both Oz and NZ.  One thing that caught my eye was this:

"As was the practice for all car brands during the early 20th Century, the chassis and engines were imported and the bodies were locally built by Australian coach builders".

So, at least in some instances, not only were the cars "knocked down" for shipping, but were also comprised of only the chassis, motor, and running gear.  I guess you wouldn't need a very big crate for that.

Back to the freight cars:  given the build date, the wooden frame components, and the vanishingly small numbers of these cars by 1930 (including the second C&NW car), I would be surprised if this photo dates much past 1925.  Best guess is that it post-dates the war, so that narrows the window to ~7 years , +/-.

--
Dave Parker

Re: What Is This Fellow Doing?

Bob Chaparro

It still looks like he is holding a chalk stick to me.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA

Re: Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

David North

This might be a red herring, but Bennett & Woods were the Australian distributor for Kelvinator in the early part of the 20th Century.

They were a leading company in the motor trade here in Australia, but more spare parts than new cars.

Wasn’t Kelvinator part of the Nash brand?

Coincidently, B&W were the Australian distributor for Harley Davison from 1915 and BSA motorbikes.

(Nothing to do with Nash, just something I found while researching around this photo)

I must admit, I thought the boxes looked a little small for cars.

Rupert, do you know who the NZ distributors were for Kelvinator before Fisher & Paykell took the line on the late 30s?

I wonder if Bennett & Woods had an NZ Division?

Again, I may be way off on this.

Cheers

Dave North

Sydney

Australia

Re: PRR X31A facts you want to know

vincent altiere <steel77086@...>

Thanks Ben.

Vince Altiere

-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Jun 19, 2020 11:01 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR X31A facts you want to know

"Did you use 1/2 inch tape on your car?? I would think 1/4 inch would be better. Please let me know."

As Tim posted, you trim it as necessary.

Ben Hom

Re: C&O Burro Crane Photos

mofwcaboose <MOFWCABOOSE@...>

Locomotive cranes  were found on the C&O, though apparently not in the numbers seen on some other railroads. In contrast to the meticulous  listing of C&O's wreckers, data on smaller cranes is very scattered and hard to find.

I personally only photographed one  crane; RC-24, an Industrial Works/Industrial Brownhoist Model N of at least 60 tons capacity used for bridge work.

Burro cranes are a special case. They are usually numbered in with the track machines (such as tampers, spike drivers, etc.), and the numbers  tend to be scattered all over. Lifting capacities are tied to the  model number, which can be found cast into the rear of the cab, under the trade name "Burro". For example. a Model 30 is good for 7½ tons.

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL

---Original Message-----
From: Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Sent: Thu, Jun 18, 2020 10:39 am
Subject: [RealSTMFC] C&O Burro Crane Photos

Friends,

Today I'm sharing six photos of C&O Burro cranes. All these photos were taken in the 1980s or 1990s, most at Charlottesville, but two views are of the same crane at Gladstone (front and rear). I don't know for certain when these cranes were built, but I suspect that most date from the 1950s and so are within our timeframe.

Strangely, I've never seen any bigger C&O cranes, though they certainly had some large machines. I would not be surprised if there is/was one stationed at Clifton Forge, and possibly another at Newport News or Richmond.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff  🦆

Re: PRR X31A facts you want to know

Benjamin Hom

"Did you use 1/2 inch tape on your car?? I would think 1/4 inch would be better. Please let me know."

As Tim posted, you trim it as necessary.

Ben Hom

Re: PRR X31A facts you want to know

vincent altiere <steel77086@...>

Hello Ben,

Did you use 1/2 inch tape on your car?? I would think 1/4 inch would be better. Please let me know.

Vince Altiere

-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Jun 19, 2020 9:45 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR X31A facts you want to know

Tim O'Connor wrote:
"Method #5 - plastic self adhesive tape from an electronic label maker - easier to apply than
the bare metal foil and can be stretched a little if necessary. Easily cut into shapes (gusset plates, etc.)"

"Can you give us more information on this product?  I am not sure what you are describing."

Here's an example - Dymo sells a similar product for their label makers:

This isn't the old thick embossed label stock for the manual hand-held label makers - this is a peel-and-stick printable tape.  It works nicely - here's a Walthers (ex-Train Miniature) Class X29 boxcar that has patch panels made from this material.  It was a bit difficult getting it over the large rivets of the old model, but I do like the effect more than decals (which tend to disappear under the paint) and Bare-Metal Foil (which I find to be too subtle).

Ben Hom

Re: PRR X31A facts you want to know

Benjamin Hom

Tim O'Connor wrote:
"Method #5 - plastic self adhesive tape from an electronic label maker - easier to apply than
the bare metal foil and can be stretched a little if necessary. Easily cut into shapes (gusset plates, etc.)"

"Can you give us more information on this product?  I am not sure what you are describing."

Here's an example - Dymo sells a similar product for their label makers:

This isn't the old thick embossed label stock for the manual hand-held label makers - this is a peel-and-stick printable tape.  It works nicely - here's a Walthers (ex-Train Miniature) Class X29 boxcar that has patch panels made from this material.  It was a bit difficult getting it over the large rivets of the old model, but I do like the effect more than decals (which tend to disappear under the paint) and Bare-Metal Foil (which I find to be too subtle).

Ben Hom

Re: PRR X31A facts you want to know

Chuck Cover

RE: Method #5 - plastic self adhesive tape from an electronic label maker - easier to apply than
the bare metal foil and can be stretched a little if necessary. Easily cut into shapes (gusset plates etc)

Tim,  can you give us more information on this product?  I am not sure what you are describing.  Thanks

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM

Re: What methods do you use to add weight to an empty flatcar?

Peter Weiglin

Weights and lead shot -- I started thinking (always dangerous).  Smallest shot packs more densely.  It follows that lead powder would be densest of all.

Turns out that lead  powder is used to add weight to golf clubs, and is available (except, it seems, in eco-freaky California)  I bought a  pound of it for about ten bucks.

Drip CA or matte medium into the cavity, and add lead powder.  Works.

Of course, for things like flat cars, sheet lead, 1/16" thick, is sold for roofing purposes,  Cut to shape.  Use two layers if necessary and possicle.

Also useful for replacing or auglenting the weights in any kind of car.

Peter Weiglin

PRR X31A facts you want to know

Andy Carlson

Steel wool takes a lot of the shine off which makes paint adhesion better. I think years ago I tried painting an unscuffed trim with Accupaint with 30 percent added auto finish supply shop's universal flex additive and that seemed to work well at the time. I have only white and chrome Monokote Trim and never have painted the chrome.

The chrome is used for making stainless steel using the Highliners' Paul Lubliner's technique of stainless steel replication in HO scale. Basically he uses a very thin lacquer wash of purple over chrome. Works on plastic vacumm chrome as well, but totally a failure on fine grounded pigment silver or aluminum paint. Needs to be 100 percent mirror-reflective smooth to work well.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Thursday, June 18, 2020, 6:51:41 PM PDT, Richard Townsend via groups.io <richtownsend@...> wrote:

Does it take paint well?

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Carlson <midcentury@...>
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Sent: Thu, Jun 18, 2020 5:47 pm
Subject: [RealSTMFC] PRR X31A facts you want to know

Or equally useful, the very thin polymer peel & stick product, Monokote Trim. An RC item which I am constantly finding plenty of uses for it. Sticks well and holds rivet impressions. It is available in dozens of different colors, so a patch color choice may eliminate paint touch-up. About 3 x 30 inches and less than \$7.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

_._,_._,_

Re: Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

Rupert Gamlen

As New Zealand’s population was so small, it did not have its own vehicle manufacturers, so vehicle were either shipped here complete or partially disassembled, crated, transported by rail and then shipped here for reassembly. Later, some parts were manufactured within NZ and completely knocked down cars (“CKD’s”), minus those parts which were to be locally sourced, were imported.

“B&W” and “Auckland” would have been the shipping marks, which would have appeared on the bill of lading and on the ship’s manifest to identify the intended recipient. I’ve looked on-line but can’t find a local company with those initials to help with dating the photo.

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via groups.io
Sent: Friday, 19 June 2020 12:35 pm
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

Could B&W be the receiving company?

Richard Townsend

Lincoln City, OR

_._,_._,_

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