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Re: What methods do you use to add weight to an empty flatcar?

Dave Parker
 

We've had this debate before, but it doesn't seem like we have progressed very far.

If you choose just the right sized spheres and can get them to pack in the most optimal way (= face-centered cubic close packing), you'll have 74% solids and 26% voids. If your packing is less than ideal, you might end up with only 65% solids, or quite possibly less.

If you add some finer particles, you can indeed fill some of that void space, but you run the risk of disrupting the ideal FCC packing and negating much or all of the gain.  And, as Tony says, the fines have pores spaces too, and lots of them.  Assuming we are talking about something like the interior space of a center-sill, you're not going to be able to apply a ton of pressure to get the particles packed, and even vigorous tapping of the underbody may not work because you'll just bounce the shot out of that space.

So, practically speaking, what's the best you can expect from mixing "big" shot and little particles?  80% solids?  85%?  If the latter, you've increased your added weight  by a mere 15% compared to FCC-packed uniform spheres.  All else being equal, if you switch from lead to tungsten (the metal, not the putty), you can increase the added weight by 72%, which is starting to sound like it might be worth doing.

Combining the above with Ted's sugar cube example, the cube will work just fine if you can trim it to a shape that fits snugly inside the center-sill. Practically then, you could just take some thin lead flashing, cut it to the correct shape, and stack it neatly inside the sill.  With a little care, filling ~80% of that space should not be at all difficult, and that's about as good as you are going to do short of casting a solid metal piece that exactly fills 100% of the space.

PS:  I can't get that excited about tungsten putty, which contains about as much polymer as it does tungsten. At a density of about 10 g/cm3, it only would be marginally better than my 80% lead example above.  Tungsten powder has more promise; at ~70% solids you should hit ~13.5 g/cm3 versus 11.3 for solid lead.  If you can get it to pack that densely.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Re: What methods do you use to add weight to an empty flatcar?

Tony Thompson
 

Ted Culotta wrote:

I may be misunderstanding, Tony, but your calculation is "unfettered" whereas if you have a finite space to fill and you use larger rather than smaller "chunks" then you can't get as many in the finite space. I'll fit a pulverized sugar cube between center sills a lot more effectively than I will a solid sugar cube of the same volume. 

      Yes, obviously a space that can't take an integral number of large spheres will not fit this calculation. But if you choose any size sphere, for a space where they fit "end to end" as well as "side to side," the calculation of the empty volume is independent of sphere size.
       Obviously if your sugar cube won't fit between the sills at all, then your argument is easily successful <g>. Note also that mixing sizes of the "bits" means that little ones can fill between the large ones, and the calculation for uniform spheres doesn't apply. 
        But we were talking about lead shot, which if small compared to the space to be filled certainly does match my calculation.

Tony Thompson




Book: Insulation Of Railway Equipment

Bob Chaparro
 

Book: Insulation Of Railway Equipment

Courtesy of the HathiTrust Digital Library, this is a link to a book published by the Union Fibre Company in 1912 on refrigerator car insulation:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112008409432&view=1up&seq=9

The book runs 130 pages and has a number of photos of period refrigerator cars, discussions on refrigerator car construction and insulation materials, illustrations, and tests of competing insulation materials used in PFE, Santa Fe and Northern Pacific refrigerator cars. There also is a section on the history of the refrigerator car to that point in time.

Bob Chaparro

Moderator

Railroad Citrus Industry Modeling Group

https://groups.io/g/RailroadCitrusIndustryModelingGroup

Railway Bull Shippers Group

https://groups.io/g/RailwayBullShippersGroup


Re: What methods do you use to add weight to an empty flatcar?

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

True, thus a much better solution is to mix the shot with the powder and fill the interstices.

That’s still true regardless of the material chosen, and yes, tungsten is much heavier than lead. Actual metallic tungsten is best, but is very hard to cut or shape except by grinding. Tungsten particles, powder, or putty sounds like good option. Another option is tungsten-carbide which is also heavy. The T-C grit is a common abrasive, and in chunks it is formed into cutting tools. Broken or dulled T-C "inserts” make good weights.

Dan MItchell
==========

On Jun 19, 2020, at 12:20 PM, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

Peter Weiglin wrote:

Weights and lead shot -- I started thinking (always dangerous).  Smallest shot packs more densely.  It follows that lead powder would be densest of all.

     Actually, no. If all the shot is the same size, the PROPORTION of the space that is empty is identical for any chosen size. Of course the voids are much smaller with smaller shot, but there are many more of them.

Tony Thompson





Re: PRR X31A facts you want to know

Curt Fortenberry
 

If you emboss rivets in thin styrene sheets, an old plastic modelers
trick is to fill the dimples with putty. that way you stand less
chance of disturbing them with solvent.

Curt Fortenberry


Re: What methods do you use to add weight to an empty flatcar?

Ted Culotta
 

I may be misunderstanding, Tony, but your calculation is "unfettered" whereas if you have a finite space to fill and you use larger rather than smaller "chunks" then you can't get as many in the finite space. I'll fit a pulverized sugar cube between center sills a lot more effectively than I will a solid sugar cube of the same volume. 

Cheers,
Ted

Ted Culotta
Speedwitch Media
P.O. Box 392, Guilford, CT 06437


Re: PRR X31A facts you want to know

Chuck Cover
 

  Sounds like a good solution.  Thanks Ben

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM


Re: What methods do you use to add weight to an empty flatcar?

Tony Thompson
 

Peter Weiglin wrote:

Weights and lead shot -- I started thinking (always dangerous).  Smallest shot packs more densely.  It follows that lead powder would be densest of all.

     Actually, no. If all the shot is the same size, the PROPORTION of the space that is empty is identical for any chosen size. Of course the voids are much smaller with smaller shot, but there are many more of them.

Tony Thompson




Re: What Is This Fellow Doing?

Dave Parker
 

To me, the most important detail in this photo is the absolutely shredded board that is the route-card holder.  A great case for adding this detail using basswood rather than styrene.  The grainier the better!
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Re: Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

Dave Parker
 

If you look at the Wiki pages for both Nash and Hudson/Essex, there is quite a bit of information about exports to both Oz and NZ.  One thing that caught my eye was this:

"As was the practice for all car brands during the early 20th Century, the chassis and engines were imported and the bodies were locally built by Australian coach builders".

So, at least in some instances, not only were the cars "knocked down" for shipping, but were also comprised of only the chassis, motor, and running gear.  I guess you wouldn't need a very big crate for that.

Back to the freight cars:  given the build date, the wooden frame components, and the vanishingly small numbers of these cars by 1930 (including the second C&NW car), I would be surprised if this photo dates much past 1925.  Best guess is that it post-dates the war, so that narrows the window to ~7 years , +/-.

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Re: What Is This Fellow Doing?

Bob Chaparro
 

It still looks like he is holding a chalk stick to me.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: Boxed Automobiles On Flatcars

David North
 

This might be a red herring, but Bennett & Woods were the Australian distributor for Kelvinator in the early part of the 20th Century.

They were a leading company in the motor trade here in Australia, but more spare parts than new cars.

Wasn’t Kelvinator part of the Nash brand?

Coincidently, B&W were the Australian distributor for Harley Davison from 1915 and BSA motorbikes.

(Nothing to do with Nash, just something I found while researching around this photo)

 

I must admit, I thought the boxes looked a little small for cars.

 

Rupert, do you know who the NZ distributors were for Kelvinator before Fisher & Paykell took the line on the late 30s?

I wonder if Bennett & Woods had an NZ Division?

 

Again, I may be way off on this.

Cheers

Dave North

Sydney

Australia


Re: PRR X31A facts you want to know

vincent altiere <steel77086@...>
 

Thanks Ben.

Vince Altiere


-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Jun 19, 2020 11:01 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR X31A facts you want to know

Vince Altiere asked:
"Did you use 1/2 inch tape on your car?? I would think 1/4 inch would be better. Please let me know."

As Tim posted, you trim it as necessary.


Ben Hom


Re: C&O Burro Crane Photos

mofwcaboose <MOFWCABOOSE@...>
 

Locomotive cranes  were found on the C&O, though apparently not in the numbers seen on some other railroads. In contrast to the meticulous  listing of C&O's wreckers, data on smaller cranes is very scattered and hard to find.

I personally only photographed one  crane; RC-24, an Industrial Works/Industrial Brownhoist Model N of at least 60 tons capacity used for bridge work.

Burro cranes are a special case. They are usually numbered in with the track machines (such as tampers, spike drivers, etc.), and the numbers  tend to be scattered all over. Lifting capacities are tied to the  model number, which can be found cast into the rear of the cab, under the trade name "Burro". For example. a Model 30 is good for 7½ tons.

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL



---Original Message-----
From: Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Sent: Thu, Jun 18, 2020 10:39 am
Subject: [RealSTMFC] C&O Burro Crane Photos

Friends,

Today I'm sharing six photos of C&O Burro cranes. All these photos were taken in the 1980s or 1990s, most at Charlottesville, but two views are of the same crane at Gladstone (front and rear). I don't know for certain when these cranes were built, but I suspect that most date from the 1950s and so are within our timeframe. 

Strangely, I've never seen any bigger C&O cranes, though they certainly had some large machines. I would not be surprised if there is/was one stationed at Clifton Forge, and possibly another at Newport News or Richmond.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆 


Re: PRR X31A facts you want to know

Benjamin Hom
 

Vince Altiere asked:
"Did you use 1/2 inch tape on your car?? I would think 1/4 inch would be better. Please let me know."

As Tim posted, you trim it as necessary.


Ben Hom


Re: PRR X31A facts you want to know

vincent altiere <steel77086@...>
 

Hello Ben,

Did you use 1/2 inch tape on your car?? I would think 1/4 inch would be better. Please let me know.

Vince Altiere


-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Fri, Jun 19, 2020 9:45 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PRR X31A facts you want to know

Tim O'Connor wrote: 
"Method #5 - plastic self adhesive tape from an electronic label maker - easier to apply than
the bare metal foil and can be stretched a little if necessary. Easily cut into shapes (gusset plates, etc.)"

Chuck Cover asked:
"Can you give us more information on this product?  I am not sure what you are describing."

Here's an example - Dymo sells a similar product for their label makers:

This isn't the old thick embossed label stock for the manual hand-held label makers - this is a peel-and-stick printable tape.  It works nicely - here's a Walthers (ex-Train Miniature) Class X29 boxcar that has patch panels made from this material.  It was a bit difficult getting it over the large rivets of the old model, but I do like the effect more than decals (which tend to disappear under the paint) and Bare-Metal Foil (which I find to be too subtle).


Ben Hom
   


Re: PRR X31A facts you want to know

Benjamin Hom
 

Tim O'Connor wrote: 
"Method #5 - plastic self adhesive tape from an electronic label maker - easier to apply than
the bare metal foil and can be stretched a little if necessary. Easily cut into shapes (gusset plates, etc.)"

Chuck Cover asked:
"Can you give us more information on this product?  I am not sure what you are describing."

Here's an example - Dymo sells a similar product for their label makers:

This isn't the old thick embossed label stock for the manual hand-held label makers - this is a peel-and-stick printable tape.  It works nicely - here's a Walthers (ex-Train Miniature) Class X29 boxcar that has patch panels made from this material.  It was a bit difficult getting it over the large rivets of the old model, but I do like the effect more than decals (which tend to disappear under the paint) and Bare-Metal Foil (which I find to be too subtle).


Ben Hom
   


Re: PRR X31A facts you want to know

Chuck Cover
 

RE: Method #5 - plastic self adhesive tape from an electronic label maker - easier to apply than
the bare metal foil and can be stretched a little if necessary. Easily cut into shapes (gusset plates etc)

Tim,  can you give us more information on this product?  I am not sure what you are describing.  Thanks

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM


Re: What methods do you use to add weight to an empty flatcar?

Peter Weiglin
 

Weights and lead shot -- I started thinking (always dangerous).  Smallest shot packs more densely.  It follows that lead powder would be densest of all.

Turns out that lead  powder is used to add weight to golf clubs, and is available (except, it seems, in eco-freaky California)  I bought a  pound of it for about ten bucks.

Drip CA or matte medium into the cavity, and add lead powder.  Works.

Of course, for things like flat cars, sheet lead, 1/16" thick, is sold for roofing purposes,  Cut to shape.  Use two layers if necessary and possicle.

Also useful for replacing or auglenting the weights in any kind of car.

Peter Weiglin


PRR X31A facts you want to know

Andy Carlson
 

Steel wool takes a lot of the shine off which makes paint adhesion better. I think years ago I tried painting an unscuffed trim with Accupaint with 30 percent added auto finish supply shop's universal flex additive and that seemed to work well at the time. I have only white and chrome Monokote Trim and never have painted the chrome.

The chrome is used for making stainless steel using the Highliners' Paul Lubliner's technique of stainless steel replication in HO scale. Basically he uses a very thin lacquer wash of purple over chrome. Works on plastic vacumm chrome as well, but totally a failure on fine grounded pigment silver or aluminum paint. Needs to be 100 percent mirror-reflective smooth to work well.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Thursday, June 18, 2020, 6:51:41 PM PDT, Richard Townsend via groups.io <richtownsend@...> wrote:


Does it take paint well?

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Carlson <midcentury@...>
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Sent: Thu, Jun 18, 2020 5:47 pm
Subject: [RealSTMFC] PRR X31A facts you want to know

Or equally useful, the very thin polymer peel & stick product, Monokote Trim. An RC item which I am constantly finding plenty of uses for it. Sticks well and holds rivet impressions. It is available in dozens of different colors, so a patch color choice may eliminate paint touch-up. About 3 x 30 inches and less than $7.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

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