Date   

Re: ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

Rick Naylor
 

In this time frame didn't all cars have to be rerouted to the home road via the same route it got there? So, if a car came into Chicago via the Rock Island, CNW and SP Cotton Belt it would go through Iowa on The Rock Island. 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tony Thompson <tony@...>
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 1:14 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo
 
Nelson Moyer wrote:

Seems more likely that a car originating of the PRR would be routed west from Chicago on ATSF than CB&Q, which didn’t run west of Denver. 

    Why? The shipper chose the routing, not the railroad (unless the shipper chose to defer to the local agent). Shippers had lots of "original" ideas about routing, as one former clerk put it to me. It's true that under Car Service Rules, that it would be DESIRABLE for the car to be routed over the Santa Fe, but a car clerk knowing those rules did not choose the routing.

Tony Thompson




Re: silver SAL box cars

golden1014
 

Silver SAL box cars were insulated box cars, often called “beer cars”.  Light gray cars were modified 1937 cars with roof hatches for cement loading.  


John Golden


Help Needed for MoPac Box Car Model

golden1014
 

Hi Gents,

I am rebuilding the Roundhouse/MDC/Athearn 50-foot, single-sheathed auto car to model a MoPac prototype.  

The major features of the model are single-sheathed sides, 3-3-3 inverse dreadnaught ends, fishbelly centersill underframe, steel doors, radial roof.  No end door (key point).

I have the Speedwitch decal set for the model.  The Speedwitch decal instructions indicate the first 50 cars in the series 89000-89049 had inverse dreadnaught ends, no end doors.  However, photos show cars in the 89000-89049 series with end doors.  A photo of 89169, the last car, also shows end doors.  Therefore the decal set is incorrect for use for my model, since the model does not have end doors.

I don't know if Roundhouse/MDC/Athearn made a similar model with an end door.  I could be wrong but I don't think they did.  They certainly made a similar car with end doors, but I don't think they offered this body style, which is almost perfect for MoPac, with end doors.  

Here's the question: Is there a prototype for the model referenced, without an end door?  According to Focus on Freight Cars #1, MP had 1,000 of such cars, most without end doors.  Does anyone have a photo from the other series without an end door?

Attached are a few photos.  Note the model has no end door, but the proto-photo does.

Thanks in advance for your help!

John Golden
Ramstein-Miesenbach, Germany

RPM Blog: https://railroadprototypemodeler.wordpress.com/


Re: What methods do you use to add weight to an empty flatcar?

Rick Naylor
 

Or you hit it with a hammer and flatten them! Auto Zone and some of the other Auto supply houses have lead/tin with self stick down to ¼ oz . and a box cost about $10 -$15.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Tony Thompson
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 2:41 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] What methods do you use to add weight to an empty flatcar?

 

Ted Culotta wrote:



I may be misunderstanding, Tony, but your calculation is "unfettered" whereas if you have a finite space to fill and you use larger rather than smaller "chunks" then you can't get as many in the finite space. I'll fit a pulverized sugar cube between center sills a lot more effectively than I will a solid sugar cube of the same volume. 

 

      Yes, obviously a space that can't take an integral number of large spheres will not fit this calculation. But if you choose any size sphere, for a space where they fit "end to end" as well as "side to side," the calculation of the empty volume is independent of sphere size.

       Obviously if your sugar cube won't fit between the sills at all, then your argument is easily successful <g>. Note also that mixing sizes of the "bits" means that little ones can fill between the large ones, and the calculation for uniform spheres doesn't apply. 

        But we were talking about lead shot, which if small compared to the space to be filled certainly does match my calculation.

Tony Thompson

 

 

 

 


Re: Photo: IC Drop-Bottom Gondola Interior

Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

Caught those too, Ken. The L&N vent. surprised me as I'd never seen any from that road before 
and now wonder how common they were.

My best, Don Valentine


Re: ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Tony Thompson wrote:

Shippers had lots of "original" ideas about routing, as one former clerk put it to me.

 

I knew a man who was in sales for the ERIE and later the EL.  At one time he was assigned to the EL’s Dallas sales office.  He had a very good customer with a good deal of shipping to New York, and some into New England.  His preferred routing was from his plant in Texas to Chicago, east on the EL, to Maybrook to the NH for the New England shipments, and to Hoboken for the NYC area shipments.  Why?

 

He liked the attitude and cooperation of the EL sales people.  It was, after all, the “Friendly Service Route.”

 

Sorry if this bridged into the distant future for this list.

 

Schuyler


Want to Buy Undecorated Kadee 40-foot PS-1 w/long bolster tabs & six foot Youngstown doors

Bill Welch
 

Wondering if anyone here has one Undecorated Kadee 40-foot PS-1 w/long bolster tabs & six foot Youngstown doors?

Please contact me at fgexbill@... if you can help me out. Thank you!

Bill Welch


Re: ATSF 5714 Fe 8 color photo

charles slater
 

Andy there were 4 different ends used in this rebuilding project. This car most likely had 2 different ends on it.
Charlie Slater

Sent from Outlook



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Andy Carlson <midcentury@...>
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2020 3:00 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] ATSF 5714 Fe 8 color photo
 
Strange that an Fe 7 would have a more modern end than an Fe 8 with its inverted Murphy corrugated end. With so many rebuilds, perhaps I should not be surprised.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Monday, June 22, 2020, 2:45:48 PM PDT, Tom Madden via groups.io <pullmanboss@...> wrote:


Aaannnnnndd - the Resin Car Works kit:



Tom Madden


Re: ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

Tony Thompson
 

Nelson Moyer wrote:

I model Fall 1953. The question would be how did the ATSF car get to Iowa to be commandeered for grain hauling, or put another way, what’s the likelihood of the car being in Iowa.

         Don't forget what we learned from Gilbert-Nelson. Cars show up around the country (on major railroads, and on main lines) according to their proportion of the national car fleet, if they are free-running cars like general-purpose box cars and gondolas. Santa Fe had one of the biggest car fleets in the country, so it would be more surprising for a Santa Fe car to be ABSENT in Iowa, than for it to be present.

Tony Thompson




Re: ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

Nelson Moyer
 

Ted,

 

I model Fall 1953. The question would be how did the ATSF car get to Iowa to be commandeered for grain hauling, or put another way, what’s the likelihood of the car being in Iowa.

 

I know it sounds like I’m trying to talk myself out of buying the model, but actually I’m searching for a plausible reason to work it into my operating scheme.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ted Schnepf
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 10:39 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

 

Hi Nelson ,

What time of year, and what year, are you modeling?

If it is in the fall of the year, when the grain rush is on, anything goes, and car routings are out the window. Any serviciable car is used, even if it means installing a center post on double door cars to support grain doors. Double door cars in grain service, are not the norm, but did happen during rush periods.

Fall in the midwest, even into the 1960's, is a great time to model. No rules.

Ted Schnepf
126 Will Scarlet,
Elgin, Ill. 60120


847=697-5353

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 08:16:35 AM CDT, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

 

 

I didn’t forget about those issues, but according to car service rules, wouldn’t shipments originating in Iowa more likely be loaded in home road cars and foreign cars having interchange with the Q? ATSF had very few if any interchanges in Iowa, considering they had only 19 miles of track in the extreme Southeastern tip of the state. Interchanges in Southeastern Iowa included CRI&P, MILW, M&StL, CGW, and Wabash. I’m not sure ATSF interchanged with the Q in Ft. Madison, but it’s likely because it seems like I remember reading the a ATSF rerouted traffic through Burlington when the Ft. Madison bridge was out of service. ATSF had its own gateway into Chicago, so it didn’t need the CB&Q. The more pertinent question is, What shipments originated on the ATSF with Southeastern Iowa destinations served by the CB&Q or on one of the roads interchanging with the CB&Q? Unless a ATSF load would pass through Burlington or have Burlington or one of my branchline towns (highly unlikely) as the final destination, I see no role for the ATSF boxcar. I can see ATSF routing cars to St. Louis or Kansas City, then Northward to Council Bluffs or Burlington, but there are more direct routings available to ATSF. My car roster is already overfilled, and I have to have a clear operational purpose for any additional cars. Hypotheticals aren’t sufficient justification for adding a car just because I like it.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io]On Behalf Of Douglas Harding
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2020 11:44 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

 

Nelson you forget all the manufacturing in Iowa. Think farm equipment. Large double door auto boxcars are ideal for moving farm equipment. Seems to me there was at least one farm implement plant in Burlington. Caterpillar and Case both had a plants in Burlington. Get out your Shippers Guide, you may be surprised at what you discover. Or what was manufactured in a ATSF served community that would be shipped to a local implement dealer along your mainline or branch line? Those ATSF boxcars could find their way to a team track ramp unloading manure spreaders or tractor tires or... Well hopefully you get the idea.

 

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

Tony Thompson
 

Nelson Moyer wrote:

Seems more likely that a car originating of the PRR would be routed west from Chicago on ATSF than CB&Q, which didn’t run west of Denver. 

    Why? The shipper chose the routing, not the railroad (unless the shipper chose to defer to the local agent). Shippers had lots of "original" ideas about routing, as one former clerk put it to me. It's true that under Car Service Rules, that it would be DESIRABLE for the car to be routed over the Santa Fe, but a car clerk knowing those rules did not choose the routing.

Tony Thompson




Re: ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

Tony Thompson
 

Nelson Moyer wrote:

I didn’t forget about those issues, but according to car service rules, wouldn’t shipments originating in Iowa more likely be loaded in home road cars and foreign cars having interchange with the Q? 

      I believe this is a misunderstanding of Car Service Rules. First of all (and the first rule), home road cars were not to be loaded if there was a "suitable" foreign-road car available. Of course the Q might choose to use a Grade A car of its own for a good customer, but that's outside the Rules. The Rules are aimed at, if possible, routing the foreign car so that it traverses its owner's rails (thus giving them some freight revenue), or moving toward home, or toward a road with a direct connection to the owning road. 
        There are just six of these rules, all are simple, and I have discussed them in a blog post years ago. If you're interested, here's a link to that post.


Tony Thompson




Re: ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

Nelson Moyer
 

Seems more likely that a car originating of the PRR would be routed west from Chicago on ATSF than CB&Q, which didn’t run west of Denver. The CB&Q subsidiaries C&S ran North from Denver to Wyoming and Montana and the FW&D ran South from Denver to Texas, but none of them ran farther West. While it may be theoretically possible for the ATSF car to be on a merchandise freight between Chicago and Denver, it’s presence would be an outlier. I need more specifics before I can buy the model.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Keene via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 11:44 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

 

On Jun 23, 2020, at 6:07 AM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

 

I didn’t forget about those issues, but according to car service rules, wouldn’t shipments originating in Iowa more likely be loaded in home road cars and foreign cars having interchange with the Q?

 

Remember that not all of the Fe-7 through Fe-20 class 50 foot “automobile” cars were in assigned / dedicated service. A good number of these cars were in general service. That is, they were free roamers. 

 

Let’s take a single example — I am sure that there are many multiples examples — of an one of these Fe-class cars having brought a load from the west to the east. Say to a destination on the PRR. Then there was a load of let’s say refrigerators — a load that would volume out before reaching the load limit that would fit the requirements for use of a 50 foot car with the easy access of a larger door opening. As a railroad I have a choice of returning the car as an empty via reverse routing to the ATSF or loading it with an income producing load in the direction of its home road. Let’s say that the load was going a western destination on the CB&Q. A possible routing could have been from  the eastern location on the PRR to Chicago to the CB&Q to “Everywhere West". From my understanding this is in accord with the car service rules. 

 

I remember as a youngster my first sighting of one of these whale belly big boxcars. It was on a northbound MKT freight train that originated in Oklahoma City that was headed for Parsons, Kansas. Must have been a load as the train had passed by several interchange locations with the ATSF. These cars did ramble around the country. Having one of these examples in a through freight would not be an uncommon occurrence. 

 

Cheers,

Bill Keene

Irvine, CA


Re: ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Ron,

Actually a lot of older cars ran in parts pool service. The WP, for example, rebuilt a handful of older 40' boxcars with added double doors for parts service (IIRC, there were only five). I posted a photo of one of these cars the other day in relation to the WP Burro cranes. The boxcar in question was by then in MW service.

Many cars in auto parts service had model-specific racks or load restraining devices. These had to be updated when models changed, though not always every year (load restrainers for engines or frames, for example, might stay the same for several years, while body panels might change annually if the auto model was regularly being redesigned).

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 9:24 AM mopacfirst <ron.merrick@...> wrote:
Another point that occurs to me is, how old are the cars at the date you're modeling, and are there newer ones that could hold down the dedicated service assignments?  By "old", in the case of cars like this, I mean the rebuild date.  And shippers would have been interested in whether the doors close tight, the inside is clean with not too many nails sticking out of the lining, and that it's easy to tie down or brace or block the load.

If you assume that, in that specific year, those auto parts pools or whatever get the newest and best cars, and that the market (I'm thinking the auto parts business, primarily, since both shipper and receiver were highly specific) hasn't expanded dramatically where they need anything that rolls, then older cars are probably much more likely to be found in general service. 

Furniture and appliances, and farm equipment, have a different profile where the shippers are highly specific but the receivers are much more diverse, might have a different profile of cars.  And low trades like hay, as in the example, would get whatever the yardmaster doesn't have a better purpose for.

I realize this is a highly generalized way of stating the operating practice.

Ron Merrick


Re: Reading Reefer Photo Request

Eric Hansmann
 

The photos I bought document the construction of the grain elevator and grain pier in the 1926-1928 time frame..

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill Adam via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2020 9:30 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Reading Reefer Photo Request

 

That photo is taken looking west from the Delaware River just south of Allegheny Avenue.  The grain elevator was removed in the 1990's.


Tour the WDHS this Thursday

Allen Montgomery
 

Hi everybody.
I'm pleased to announce that the Wyoming Division Historical Society will be featured on Virtual OS Check-In this Thursday at 5:30 Pacific Standard Time here.


So, if your looking for a safe way to spend a Thursday evening, come and watch Lenny and I give a tour of what we've been up to.
Hope to see you there!

Allen Montgomery


Re: ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

Bill Keene
 

On Jun 23, 2020, at 6:07 AM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

I didn’t forget about those issues, but according to car service rules, wouldn’t shipments originating in Iowa more likely be loaded in home road cars and foreign cars having interchange with the Q?

Remember that not all of the Fe-7 through Fe-20 class 50 foot “automobile” cars were in assigned / dedicated service. A good number of these cars were in general service. That is, they were free roamers. 

Let’s take a single example — I am sure that there are many multiples examples — of an one of these Fe-class cars having brought a load from the west to the east. Say to a destination on the PRR. Then there was a load of let’s say refrigerators — a load that would volume out before reaching the load limit that would fit the requirements for use of a 50 foot car with the easy access of a larger door opening. As a railroad I have a choice of returning the car as an empty via reverse routing to the ATSF or loading it with an income producing load in the direction of its home road. Let’s say that the load was going a western destination on the CB&Q. A possible routing could have been from  the eastern location on the PRR to Chicago to the CB&Q to “Everywhere West". From my understanding this is in accord with the car service rules. 

I remember as a youngster my first sighting of one of these whale belly big boxcars. It was on a northbound MKT freight train that originated in Oklahoma City that was headed for Parsons, Kansas. Must have been a load as the train had passed by several interchange locations with the ATSF. These cars did ramble around the country. Having one of these examples in a through freight would not be an uncommon occurrence. 

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA


Photo: URTC/Fairmont Creamery Reefer 35094

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: URTC/Fairmont Creamery Reefer 35094

A 1925 photo from the Northwest Museum of Arts & Culture:

https://ferrisarchives.northwestmuseum.org/Item/Index/1163

The Fairmont Creamery Company, founded in 1884, was one of four national dairies. With headquarters in Omaha, Nebraska, Fairmont had branches stretching from the Dakotas to Buffalo.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

Ted Schnepf
 

Hi Nelson ,

What time of year, and what year, are you modeling?

If it is in the fall of the year, when the grain rush is on, anything goes, and car routings are out the window. Any serviciable car is used, even if it means installing a center post on double door cars to support grain doors. Double door cars in grain service, are not the norm, but did happen during rush periods.

Fall in the midwest, even into the 1960's, is a great time to model. No rules.

Ted Schnepf
126 Will Scarlet,
Elgin, Ill. 60120


847=697-5353

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 08:16:35 AM CDT, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:


I didn’t forget about those issues, but according to car service rules, wouldn’t shipments originating in Iowa more likely be loaded in home road cars and foreign cars having interchange with the Q? ATSF had very few if any interchanges in Iowa, considering they had only 19 miles of track in the extreme Southeastern tip of the state. Interchanges in Southeastern Iowa included CRI&P, MILW, M&StL, CGW, and Wabash. I’m not sure ATSF interchanged with the Q in Ft. Madison, but it’s likely because it seems like I remember reading the a ATSF rerouted traffic through Burlington when the Ft. Madison bridge was out of service. ATSF had its own gateway into Chicago, so it didn’t need the CB&Q. The more pertinent question is, What shipments originated on the ATSF with Southeastern Iowa destinations served by the CB&Q or on one of the roads interchanging with the CB&Q? Unless a ATSF load would pass through Burlington or have Burlington or one of my branchline towns (highly unlikely) as the final destination, I see no role for the ATSF boxcar. I can see ATSF routing cars to St. Louis or Kansas City, then Northward to Council Bluffs or Burlington, but there are more direct routings available to ATSF. My car roster is already overfilled, and I have to have a clear operational purpose for any additional cars. Hypotheticals aren’t sufficient justification for adding a car just because I like it.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io]On Behalf Of Douglas Harding
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2020 11:44 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

 

Nelson you forget all the manufacturing in Iowa. Think farm equipment. Large double door auto boxcars are ideal for moving farm equipment. Seems to me there was at least one farm implement plant in Burlington. Caterpillar and Case both had a plants in Burlington. Get out your Shippers Guide, you may be surprised at what you discover. Or what was manufactured in a ATSF served community that would be shipped to a local implement dealer along your mainline or branch line? Those ATSF boxcars could find their way to a team track ramp unloading manure spreaders or tractor tires or... Well hopefully you get the idea.

 

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

mopacfirst
 

Another point that occurs to me is, how old are the cars at the date you're modeling, and are there newer ones that could hold down the dedicated service assignments?  By "old", in the case of cars like this, I mean the rebuild date.  And shippers would have been interested in whether the doors close tight, the inside is clean with not too many nails sticking out of the lining, and that it's easy to tie down or brace or block the load.

If you assume that, in that specific year, those auto parts pools or whatever get the newest and best cars, and that the market (I'm thinking the auto parts business, primarily, since both shipper and receiver were highly specific) hasn't expanded dramatically where they need anything that rolls, then older cars are probably much more likely to be found in general service. 

Furniture and appliances, and farm equipment, have a different profile where the shippers are highly specific but the receivers are much more diverse, might have a different profile of cars.  And low trades like hay, as in the example, would get whatever the yardmaster doesn't have a better purpose for.

I realize this is a highly generalized way of stating the operating practice.

Ron Merrick

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