Date   

Pennsy H21 and H25

Armand Premo
 

Ben and Bruce  Well,I did say I was a neophyte..Thank you both for for your help and collective information.Armand Premo


Re: Train-Master vs. Train-Miniature

Richard Townsend
 

I think much of this is really just a summary of who owned some of the tooling at various times, not a summary of corporate changes.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Harding <iowacentralrr@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Thu, Jun 25, 2020 1:21 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Train-Master vs. Train-Miniature

Les here is a history that involves a lot of name changes, and no doubt change of owners as well. Found at http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/258610.aspx
 
 
Started out as Tru-Scale Models freight and building kit line....
 
Then became Silver-Streak Models Plastic Line....
 
On to becoming Train Master of San Diego....
 
Next for the longest run as Train Miniature of La Mesa...
 
Moving to Illinois, they became Train Miniature of Illinois....
 
Ending as Wm. K. Walthers Company of Milwaukee...
 
The Walthers 50'0" Airslide kit tooling was cut by TMofI, before they went under....
 
TMofI did the tooling for a least one Weaver Models O Scale Car Kit....
 
TM announced in later 1971 that both a powered and dummy Fairbanks Morse H-16-44 would be released in 1972..... Was released by Willie K. some years later
 
TM 50'0" 1 1/2 XM was annnounced for release in May 1972....Did the tooling ever exist??????
 
TM for the years that the glass window packaging was used had a 36 single dome tank car drawing....Tooling was cut...but never released...until Willie K. did some years later...
 
TM did indeed cut tooling and did produce a very limited number of the 42'0" drop bottom gondola... A new product announcement did appear in MR, with a photograph of the undec model....
 
TMofI had injected molded kit boxes, that were not tall enough to contain assembled high car kits.....
 
Then switched to cheap carboard boxes, the paper thickness being the rolls for paper towels....
 
A interesting company (s).....
 
 
 
Doug  Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org
 
 
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lester Breuer
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 2:46 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Train-Master vs. Train-Miniature
 
Wondering if someone has information as to why the two names?
Lester Breuer


Re: SP F-70-7 image

Tony Thompson
 

Steel coils.
Tony Thompson 


On Jun 25, 2020, at 1:44 PM, Andy Carlson <midcentury@...> wrote:


With a "return to Ogden" stencil and the interesting shipping bracket of some kind, this is a good shot of an SP ACF built F-70-7. Anyone know what assignment this car was used for? Seems to have been at least two of these special cars.
Regards,
-Andy Carlson   Ojai CA

<SP F-70-7 flat car.jpg>


<SP F-70-7 flat car.jpg>


Re: Train-Master vs. Train-Miniature

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Friends,

I have heard that Fairbanks-Morse, which had a trademark on "Train Master" objected to the model railroad name. Maybe this is a myth, but that sort of thing is common now with UP and CSX especially demanding a license to use their heralds and other marks on commercial models.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 4:21 PM Douglas Harding <iowacentralrr@...> wrote:

Les here is a history that involves a lot of name changes, and no doubt change of owners as well. Found at http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/258610.aspx

 

 

Started out as Tru-Scale Models freight and building kit line....

 

Then became Silver-Streak Models Plastic Line....

 

On to becoming Train Master of San Diego....

 

Next for the longest run as Train Miniature of La Mesa...

 

Moving to Illinois, they became Train Miniature of Illinois....

 

Ending as Wm. K. Walthers Company of Milwaukee...

 

The Walthers 50'0" Airslide kit tooling was cut by TMofI, before they went under....

 

TMofI did the tooling for a least one Weaver Models O Scale Car Kit....

 

TM announced in later 1971 that both a powered and dummy Fairbanks Morse H-16-44 would be released in 1972..... Was released by Willie K. some years later

 

TM 50'0" 1 1/2 XM was annnounced for release in May 1972....Did the tooling ever exist??????

 

TM for the years that the glass window packaging was used had a 36 single dome tank car drawing....Tooling was cut...but never released...until Willie K. did some years later...

 

TM did indeed cut tooling and did produce a very limited number of the 42'0" drop bottom gondola... A new product announcement did appear in MR, with a photograph of the undec model....

 

TMofI had injected molded kit boxes, that were not tall enough to contain assembled high car kits.....

 

Then switched to cheap carboard boxes, the paper thickness being the rolls for paper towels....

 

A interesting company (s).....

 

 

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lester Breuer
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 2:46 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Train-Master vs. Train-Miniature

 

Wondering if someone has information as to why the two names?
Lester Breuer


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Virginian Freight Cars

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Matt;

 

Yes, $, for many.  Cor-Ten was not cheap.  Other steels, ditto.  USS alone produced many different steels to accommodate end user needs.  I saw a financial analysis on this in PRR correspondence, at one time.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Matt Goodman via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 1:35 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Virginian Freight Cars

 

Dennis; re: paint, I see your point. The mid eighties were the period that paint on the roofs and hoods of cars (automobiles) performed very poorly (flaking, fading and otherwise failing). Thanks for pointing that out. 

 

Eldon, I’d read about “copper bearing steel” used in N&W coal hoppers in the twenties and thirties. The railroad looked into CorTen steel at some point in the STMFC era, but didn’t use it, for reasons I don’t recall (value for $, probably). I didn’t pay much attention to later non-STMFC chapters of Andrew Dow’s excellent book on the topic. Perhaps the Virginian was a different story. 

 

Thanks for the replies. 

Matt Goodman

Columbus, Ohio

 

Sent from my mobile


On Jun 25, 2020, at 12:36 PM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:



To add;

 

Steel performance did vary over time.  The “coal” (and other) RRs were constantly looking for something better to build their hoppers from, particularly for slope and side sheets.  I have read plenty of correspondence in which this exact issue is discussed.  Over time, the steel companies supplied the RRs and builders, with steel whose properties were increasingly resistant to corrosion, “Cor-Ten” being one USS product.  Hoppers rotted more quickly than others, due to their prevalence in hauling coal, which generated sulfuric acid, for one.  Hoppers did get better at not corroding as fast, with new formula steels.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 12:00 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Virginian Freight Cars

 

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 07:12 PM, Matt Goodman wrote:

I can’t imagine steel and coal reacted much differently then vs 1985. 

 

But paint did. The National Environmental Protection Act of 1970 was not kind to paint manufacturers, forcing them to stop using a lot of traditional materials, all to the detriment of paint performance.

I think what you are looking at is the original black paint is at the end of its useful life, the entire surface eroded to the point where rust is bleeding through. Note the brown cast, compared to the newer black paint on the patch panels. The pigment washing off the letters is white, but it is mixing with the rust residue to become a light brown. A general wash of brown over the whole car would likely duplicate the effect, but I'm not sure you want to. That general overall haze of rust does not seem to be common in steam era photos, unless it is dust from the environment, such as found on the iron ore roads.

Dennis Storzek


SP F-70-7 image

Andy Carlson
 

With a "return to Ogden" stencil and the interesting shipping bracket of some kind, this is a good shot of an SP ACF built F-70-7. Anyone know what assignment this car was used for? Seems to have been at least two of these special cars.
Regards,
-Andy Carlson   Ojai CA

Inline image


Re: Pennsy H25

Bruce Smith
 

Well Armand,

First, the PRR did not have any such classes. Now, they did have H21 and H25, but no H-21 or H-25 😉  Now, if by chance, you've been ignoring Bern Hom for, I don't know, the past 20 years or more, and you MEANT H21 and H25 (BTW, I fixed the subject line), we can address those. 

1) The H21/H21A had a large box end sill, while the H25 had one piece pressed steel end sills. 
2) The H21 had split end verticals while the H25 has solid end verticals.
3) The side stakes on the H21 had asymmetric tapers with the top taper longer than the bottom while the H25 has symmetric tapers.
4) The H21 is stenciled "H21" while the H25 is stenciled "H25" (usually!)

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Armand Premo <arm.p.prem@...>
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 3:08 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io <RealSTMFC@groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Pennsy H-25
 
Being the Neophyte that I am,what are the basic differences between the H-21 and the H-25 ? Armand Premo


Re: Train-Master vs. Train-Miniature

Douglas Harding
 

Les here is a history that involves a lot of name changes, and no doubt change of owners as well. Found at http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/258610.aspx

 

 

Started out as Tru-Scale Models freight and building kit line....

 

Then became Silver-Streak Models Plastic Line....

 

On to becoming Train Master of San Diego....

 

Next for the longest run as Train Miniature of La Mesa...

 

Moving to Illinois, they became Train Miniature of Illinois....

 

Ending as Wm. K. Walthers Company of Milwaukee...

 

The Walthers 50'0" Airslide kit tooling was cut by TMofI, before they went under....

 

TMofI did the tooling for a least one Weaver Models O Scale Car Kit....

 

TM announced in later 1971 that both a powered and dummy Fairbanks Morse H-16-44 would be released in 1972..... Was released by Willie K. some years later

 

TM 50'0" 1 1/2 XM was annnounced for release in May 1972....Did the tooling ever exist??????

 

TM for the years that the glass window packaging was used had a 36 single dome tank car drawing....Tooling was cut...but never released...until Willie K. did some years later...

 

TM did indeed cut tooling and did produce a very limited number of the 42'0" drop bottom gondola... A new product announcement did appear in MR, with a photograph of the undec model....

 

TMofI had injected molded kit boxes, that were not tall enough to contain assembled high car kits.....

 

Then switched to cheap carboard boxes, the paper thickness being the rolls for paper towels....

 

A interesting company (s).....

 

 

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lester Breuer
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 2:46 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Train-Master vs. Train-Miniature

 

Wondering if someone has information as to why the two names?
Lester Breuer


Re: Pennsy H25

Benjamin Hom
 

Armand Premo wrote: 
"Being the Neophyte that I am,what are the basic differences between the H-21 and the H-25?"

First, there are as many dashes in PRR Car Classes as letter "h"s in Alburg, VT between 1891 and 2006.

Basic differences are the side stake profiles and ends:

Class H21A

Class H25


Pennsy H-25

Armand Premo
 

Being the Neophyte that I am,what are the basic differences between the H-21 and the H-25 ? Armand Premo


Train-Master vs. Train-Miniature

Lester Breuer
 

Wondering if someone has information as to why the two names?
Lester Breuer


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Virginian Freight Cars

Tony Thompson
 

Elden Gatwood wrote:

Steel performance did vary over time.  The “coal” (and other) RRs were constantly looking for something better to build their hoppers from, particularly for slope and side sheets.  I have read plenty of correspondence in which this exact issue is discussed.  Over time, the steel companies supplied the RRs and builders, with steel whose properties were increasingly resistant to corrosion, “Cor-Ten” being one USS product. 

         Elden states it very well. It is interesting to read articles in _Railway Age_ in the first decade or two of the 20th century, when there were plenty of railroad people skeptical that steel freight cars would "catch on" because of the severe corrosion. Many surface treatments and paint formulas were discussed, but as Elden says, the real key was different steel compositions. There were and are LOTS of them, with Cor-Ten being just one.

Tony Thompson




Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Virginian Freight Cars

Matt Goodman
 

Dennis; re: paint, I see your point. The mid eighties were the period that paint on the roofs and hoods of cars (automobiles) performed very poorly (flaking, fading and otherwise failing). Thanks for pointing that out. 

Eldon, I’d read about “copper bearing steel” used in N&W coal hoppers in the twenties and thirties. The railroad looked into CorTen steel at some point in the STMFC era, but didn’t use it, for reasons I don’t recall (value for $, probably). I didn’t pay much attention to later non-STMFC chapters of Andrew Dow’s excellent book on the topic. Perhaps the Virginian was a different story. 

Thanks for the replies. 

Matt Goodman
Columbus, Ohio

Sent from my mobile

On Jun 25, 2020, at 12:36 PM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:



To add;

 

Steel performance did vary over time.  The “coal” (and other) RRs were constantly looking for something better to build their hoppers from, particularly for slope and side sheets.  I have read plenty of correspondence in which this exact issue is discussed.  Over time, the steel companies supplied the RRs and builders, with steel whose properties were increasingly resistant to corrosion, “Cor-Ten” being one USS product.  Hoppers rotted more quickly than others, due to their prevalence in hauling coal, which generated sulfuric acid, for one.  Hoppers did get better at not corroding as fast, with new formula steels.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 12:00 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Virginian Freight Cars

 

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 07:12 PM, Matt Goodman wrote:

I can’t imagine steel and coal reacted much differently then vs 1985. 

 

But paint did. The National Environmental Protection Act of 1970 was not kind to paint manufacturers, forcing them to stop using a lot of traditional materials, all to the detriment of paint performance.

I think what you are looking at is the original black paint is at the end of its useful life, the entire surface eroded to the point where rust is bleeding through. Note the brown cast, compared to the newer black paint on the patch panels. The pigment washing off the letters is white, but it is mixing with the rust residue to become a light brown. A general wash of brown over the whole car would likely duplicate the effect, but I'm not sure you want to. That general overall haze of rust does not seem to be common in steam era photos, unless it is dust from the environment, such as found on the iron ore roads.

Dennis Storzek


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Placard: Concentrated Floor Loading

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Bob;

 

I have seen that one, but it is unusual.  I have looked into many “restricted” car notes and stencils/placarding, and the latter are surprisingly rare, given the potential consequences.

 

This one is confusing, in that it is not telling us anything of detail, such as “3/4 of load limit must be concentrated on outer 3 of cross-bearers at each end of floor”, or something similar.

 

Was this on one of LV’s Greenville well cars?  The silhouette looks very similar.  In which case, I can understand the need to inform people to watch the car’s condition.  Cars that had a well, in particular, were vulnerable, given the lack of a center sill.  That focused forces on the side sills, and made them vulnerable to bending, under loads that pushed on the center of the car.

 

This was especially true of depressed center, well, and well hole flats, and even some gons, box cars, and hoppers, given for instance the use of long hoppers in iron ore service.  In chasing this, I have been told it was up to “common sense”, in application; thus, long hoppers loaded with a pile of ore over each truck, with no placarding or stenciling.

 

The goal was to avoid loading cars in a way that would collapse them, or in other cases, cause them to push the sides outside the clearance diagram, potentially causing a side swipe.  This one looks to be oriented to car inspectors, not loaders/reloaders.

 

I am surprised we don’t see this more often.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Placard: Concentrated Floor Loading

 

Placard: Concentrated Floor Loading

This is a Lehigh Valley Railroad Company placard I found on the 'net.

I've seen my fair share of placards but this one is a first for me.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Placard: Concentrated Floor Loading

Stic Harris
 

That's cool; thanks for sharing.
Any indication of what the size of that placard would have been?

Thanks,

Stic Harris

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 12:32 PM Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Placard: Concentrated Floor Loading

This is a Lehigh Valley Railroad Company placard I found on the 'net.

I've seen my fair share of placards but this one is a first for me.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA



--


- Stic


Re: Hauling Sand before Covered Hoppers Became Popular

Chet
 

Pretty sure the DTI 7023 was one of the early Shake N Take cars.   I would guess the chance of the DTI gon showing up on the M&StL is more surprising
then a ATSF auto car showing up on the CB&Q.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Placard: Concentrated Floor Loading

Bob Chaparro
 

Placard: Concentrated Floor Loading

This is a Lehigh Valley Railroad Company placard I found on the 'net.

I've seen my fair share of placards but this one is a first for me.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Virginian Freight Cars

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

To add;

 

Steel performance did vary over time.  The “coal” (and other) RRs were constantly looking for something better to build their hoppers from, particularly for slope and side sheets.  I have read plenty of correspondence in which this exact issue is discussed.  Over time, the steel companies supplied the RRs and builders, with steel whose properties were increasingly resistant to corrosion, “Cor-Ten” being one USS product.  Hoppers rotted more quickly than others, due to their prevalence in hauling coal, which generated sulfuric acid, for one.  Hoppers did get better at not corroding as fast, with new formula steels.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dennis Storzek
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 12:00 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Virginian Freight Cars

 

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 07:12 PM, Matt Goodman wrote:

I can’t imagine steel and coal reacted much differently then vs 1985. 

 

But paint did. The National Environmental Protection Act of 1970 was not kind to paint manufacturers, forcing them to stop using a lot of traditional materials, all to the detriment of paint performance.

I think what you are looking at is the original black paint is at the end of its useful life, the entire surface eroded to the point where rust is bleeding through. Note the brown cast, compared to the newer black paint on the patch panels. The pigment washing off the letters is white, but it is mixing with the rust residue to become a light brown. A general wash of brown over the whole car would likely duplicate the effect, but I'm not sure you want to. That general overall haze of rust does not seem to be common in steam era photos, unless it is dust from the environment, such as found on the iron ore roads.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Virginian Freight Cars

Dennis Storzek
 

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 07:12 PM, Matt Goodman wrote:
I can’t imagine steel and coal reacted much differently then vs 1985. 
 
But paint did. The National Environmental Protection Act of 1970 was not kind to paint manufacturers, forcing them to stop using a lot of traditional materials, all to the detriment of paint performance.

I think what you are looking at is the original black paint is at the end of its useful life, the entire surface eroded to the point where rust is bleeding through. Note the brown cast, compared to the newer black paint on the patch panels. The pigment washing off the letters is white, but it is mixing with the rust residue to become a light brown. A general wash of brown over the whole car would likely duplicate the effect, but I'm not sure you want to. That general overall haze of rust does not seem to be common in steam era photos, unless it is dust from the environment, such as found on the iron ore roads.

Dennis Storzek


Re: ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Nelson, please yield to the temptation to buy the car.

 

  1. You like it.
  2. There have been many (I lost count) emails giving you rationale with various levels of a) plausibility and b) fairly hard evidence that the Fx 8 >>>COULD<<< have been on your railroad.
  3. You don’t HAVE to put the car on the layout.  It could be a shelf queen, a prize in your collection, because you LIKE THE CAR.

 

Schuyler, who has a lot of cars because I LIKE them, and when I get my layout built, those cars will not be on it, because of date of the prototype’s construction, either too early or too late.  I can live with that.

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of np328
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 1:24 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF 5714 Fx 8 color photo

 

Unless somebody can provide justification as to why this car would pass through Burlington, either between Chicago and Omaha or between St. Louis and Minneapolis, I can’t justify adding it to my roster. Please, someone give me a reason to buy this car.

 

Nelson, 
    if you are looking for a good reason for the ATSF car here is one, and I have written parts of this prior on the M&StL list:
   My father was the traffic manager for his Minneapolis based company that manufactured mostly engine rebuilding machines and other metal working machines. Machines that the southwest part of our country used. That part of the US relied on these heavily as cars tended to last longer down there minus snow and salt used on the highways to treat them up here. They also had some rather heavy machines also for (semi) diesel engine rebuilding.

    On family outings we would stop so my dad (where my brother and I got the railfan bug from) would stop from time to time at M&StL depots so he could get some photos. Of course we asked - why? 

And what he said is the justification you might be looking for.  From his company, once loaded on a boxcar and the load was headed to the southwest US, the M&StL would take it down to the AT&SF in Iowa, and from there it would go to the Arizona, California area he thought, rather fast.  After shipping the items, invariably the salesman would ask two or three days later "where is it" and my dad would call the Santa Fe and get a report telling the salesman, it is almost there,  tomorrow it should be there. My father was truly impressed by how these two railroads could move a shipment from the Twin Cities to the southwest.  From time to time he my father would throw business to other lines and occasionally trucking companies when shipments were headed down there however was never as impressed.   


    When these rebuilding machines would need to be rebuilt, the routing was the same, except in reverse. When they needed materials from the southwest in large enough quantities to make rail the preferred option, he specified Santa Fe. My father had a coffee mug from the Santa Fe in his office I recall. One of several items railroad associated.  


 And through his organizations of traffic managers he recalled others also spoke highly of the M&StL/AT&SF service to the southwest.   
...........
Tim O' stated All the salesman need do is take the traffic manager out for a nice dinner on the town :-D     

According to my father - well, a two edged sword. 
He after coming home from a dinner with a salesman, he would complain to my mom, Same as always, they feed you, then do their best to get you drunk and then shove a contract in front of you to sign.  My father thought there were easier ways to get a good meal.                  Jim Dick -St. Paul, MN 

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