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Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions
Tony Thompson
Ken Adams wrote: Shell owned the Martinez refinery in that period but I have them pretty well covered with a collection of UTLX cars. In your and my modeling period, Ken, UTLX was pretty substantially in bed with the "baby Standards" such as Standard of California, and to my knowledge had nothing to do with Shell. Tony Thompson |
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Re: SP F-70-7 image
Tony Thompson
Andy Jackson wrote:
Depends on the outside and inside diameter of the coils, and on the width of the strip. But the "standard" coils in use at the time these cars were built were loaded two at each end, total of four coils. I have seen one SP photo with 7 or 8 coils of distinctly smaller diameter. Tony Thompson |
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Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions
Chuck Soule
Having worked in California oil production in the 70s and early 80s, and having some familiarity with other parties besides the companies I worked for, the other respondents have it correct - Conoco did not produce crude or market products in California. That's not to say an occasional car might have made it west with a specialty load or because it might have been used short term by another oil company to fill a rolling-stock gap. But it would not be likely to see an Conoco car anywhere in California or Western Washington and Oregon. I know that Conoco was marketed out of Spokane for far eastern Washington and the Idaho panhandle, but not farther west, and I am uncertain about eastern Oregon. But for California - very low probability.
Chuck Soule |
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Re: Railroad-Owned Poultry Cars
Bob the only railroad owned poultry cars I am aware of are evidenced from a
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photo, CP 259102 and a drawing, Michigan Central 60001 (a Continental Live Poultry car). The Southern Historical Society has drawing dated 1906 for a poultry car, it does not list a number series. Kristin Dummler, in her clinic, listed the following railroads owning poultry cars: Michigan Central, Lehigh Valley, Southern, Lackawanna, Norfolk and Western, and more. I have a list of poultry cars based upon photos. The above CP car is the only photo of a railroad owned car on the list. I don't have a list of railroad owned Poultry cars, nor do I know of one. Kirstin might have one. 1924 is the year that Palace Poultry Car Co was formed, creating a competitor for the near monopoly the Live Poultry Transit Co had at the time. PPCC had 251 cars in 1924 vs 2000 the Live Poultry Transit Co had. The 24 cars reported in the book you cited represents 10% of the PPCC fleet and approximately 1% of all poultry cars in existence. The maximum number of poultry cars was a little over 2800 cars in the late 20s. North American Car acquired the PPCC fleet in 1926, and then acquired LPT in 1930. There were a few other companies with poultry cars, most prior to 1910 and most only had a few cars. By 1924 Live Poultry Transit was the dominate carrier. Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org -----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ian Cranstone Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 12:35 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Railroad-Owned Poultry Cars On Jun 26, 2020, at 12:50 PM, Bob Chaparro via groups.io<chiefbobbb@...> wrote: Mechanical Officials and the Railway Training Institute (published in 1925), there were 24 railroad-owned poultry cars in service in 1924. Does anyone have a 1924 ORER that would tell us which railroads ownedthese poultry cars? Four poultry cars were listed by Canadian roads in 1924, apparently all converted from other cars circa 1923: CN 149900-149901 CP 259000-259001 CP would add four more cars in the mid-1930s (CP 259100-259103, which were renumbered 272200-272203 in 1947). Ian CranstoneOsgoode, Ontario, Canada lamontc@... http://freightcars.nakina.net |
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Re: Car weighting
I follow the NMRA recommendations. Mostly for consistency. Most new freight cars I purchase are delivered close to NMRA standards and come with quality trucks and wheelsets. I use IM wheelsets almost exclusively and have found with my new standards using IM wheelsets, Accurail trucks (when others don’t roll well) and Kadee couplers, I can use lighter cars. And I have some, typically flatcars where it is hard to add weight. But I prefer the NMRA recommendations. If for no other reason the engines have to actually work pulling the train.
Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bud Rindfleisch
Howdy friends, |
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Re: Car weighting
Bud Rindfleisch
Brian Carlson, Yes, I knew Dave well, an excellent modeler and Mr Frugal when it came to using inexpensive materials to construct his layouts! Nice to hear that weights did indeed help with staying upright! Dave modeled in S scale for a while, among many other scales! Bud Rindfleisch |
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Re: Car weighting
Roger Huber <trainpainter@...>
Bud, I modeled in S scale for several years using AM, SHS, PRS, AF conversions and other cars with stock trucks and KD 5 couplers. I hand laid all my track and turnouts with codes 100, 83, 70 and some 55 rail. I never added any weight above stock and had no issues with derailing whether pushing or pulling the cars. I've gone back to HO and use stock weights in all my cars. They mostly have stock trucks with KD wheelsets or KD trucks. I have a few with IM wheelsets. My track is all Walthers c83 and I use #4 & #5 turnouts and #7.5 curved ones. I have no issues with derailing. I have one long 3.2% grade. I personally find the Enemaray weight standards too heavy and not necessary. Just my 2¢. Roger Huber Deer Creek Locomotive Works
On Friday, June 26, 2020, 03:37:30 PM CDT, Bud Rindfleisch <blackdiamondrr@...> wrote:
Howdy friends, Just curious on your opinions on weighting freight cars to NMRA specs. As an S scaler I've always subscribed to the recommended 6 oz's but our Groups io, has been having on going discussion about not weighting the freight cars and tracking ability on scale flanges and mostly code 100 track. Some say they do not add weight to plastic or resin cars but use metal trucks and metal wheels. I do that anyway but I prefer them slightly heavier than a plastic or resin kit without weight. So what do you all in the HO and N world do, weight or no weight? Bud Rindfleisch |
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Re: Car weighting
Weight to the NMRA at a minimum myself.
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On our club layout we had an O-scale modeler that didn’t add any weight. The o scale atlas and intermountain cars would just fall off the track. Everything runs better now that we weighed the cars. (Bud I think you knew Dave Birmingham) Brian J. Carlson On Jun 26, 2020, at 4:37 PM, Bud Rindfleisch <BlackDiamondRR@...> wrote:
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Car weighting
Bud Rindfleisch
Howdy friends,
Just curious on your opinions on weighting freight cars to NMRA specs. As an S scaler I've always subscribed to the recommended 6 oz's but our Groups io, has been having on going discussion about not weighting the freight cars and tracking ability on scale flanges and mostly code 100 track. Some say they do not add weight to plastic or resin cars but use metal trucks and metal wheels. I do that anyway but I prefer them slightly heavier than a plastic or resin kit without weight. So what do you all in the HO and N world do, weight or no weight? Bud Rindfleisch |
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] SP F-70-7 image
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Andy;
Generally, 70-ton cars got 3 - 60-72” coils positioned toward each end, with none in the center, but other variations did happen, when loaders didn’t know better. Smaller coils = more coils. When 100-ton cars became the norm, they could load up to 7 even larger coils.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Andy Jackson
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 1:37 PM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] SP F-70-7 image
Thanks Garth. Probably needed to see a more overhead shot to be able to see the cradle shape. Could coils be loaded the full length of the cradle? Andy Jackson
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Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions
Thanks to all who responded so quickly. My suspicion that the car was not geographically appropriate is confirmed. As the handrails are broken so I have no problem removing them and repainting a nice dull tank car black. Picking an appropriate owner/lessee will be a while before I get to this as it will be about #49 in my project queue. I have read Tony Thompson's article on Flying A recently. I am leaning towards Associated as they owned the Rodeo refinery in the period I model. Shell owned the Martinez refinery in that period but I have them pretty well covered with a collection of UTLX cars.
Another project for the near future as my hermetic solitude continues. -- Ken Adams Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek |
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Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions
Dave Parker
Ken:
In addition to Shell, take a good look at Unocal and Flying A (Associated). Tony Thompson has an excellent blog piece on the latter. If you want any help identifying ACF Type 21s within those fleets, give me a shout-out off-group. -- Dave Parker Swall Meadows, CA |
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Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions
Richard Townsend
The scheme is not a foobie. According to Richard Hendrickson from some time ago, the aluminum with black billboard is good for the early 1950s. But a Conoco tank car seems unlikely to be seen in Port Costa as Conoco was not marketing there. OTOH, maybe Conoco picked up some special additives or other supplies from California. Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR
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From: Ken Adams <smadanek44g@...> To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2020 11:38 am Subject: [RealSTMFC] CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions I picked up a slightly damaged (handrail busted) Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car at my Local Hobby Shop (open by appointment and you must wear a mask) from the used shelf. The paint scheme is a silver CONOCO. First, is this a foobie as a CONOCO car and if not what years would the silver paint scheme cover?
I am interested in adding this as at least one ACF Type 21 uninsulated car to my growing line of tank cars to be shuttled around the small yard of my early 1950's Port Costa, California layout. I acquired several of the insulated Type 21 CDLX cars as unsold from the NMRA 2011 National Convention a few years back. I have done a search on this groups pages to see if there is any relevant information. I have been trying to open the Train Life copy of the February 1998 Rail Model Journal for Richard Hendrickson's article on Type 21's but after 60 minutes only 3 pages of that article have appeared. One page that did downloaded indicated that CONOCO tank cars would be used mostly in the Colorado, Texas and eastern high plains states. If so a CONOCO car might not be appropriate sitting in a California Bay Area yard for any period of time. None of the research thus far has really answered my questions. I understand there is also an article on replacing the easily broken handrails with metal rails in another RMJ article. I do have hypodermic needle tube on hand. Unfortunately my recent experience with PSC cast brass handrails has not been very good (difficult to drill out rail holes) but I have several Tichy tank car detailing sets with stanchions on hand to try next. As I have to replace the handrails, repainting is not out of the question to another black painted leasing/operating company scheme. -- Ken Adams Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek |
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Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions
Dave Parker
Hi Ken:
Not sure why you are having so much trouble downloading from the Train Life site. I had the entire issue after about 1 minute. Here's the excerpt that should be of most interest to you:  Since you seem keenly interested in tank cars, I would strongly recommend "The Gas Station in America" by Jakle and Sculle. Some great stuff in there about oil company history, and the entire supply chain going back to the beginning. In it, there are three maps (1926, 1940, 1990) showing the presence of Conoco retail outlets across the country. Zero in CA, OR, or NV. Conoco was the Rocky Mountain area "baby standard" after the 1911 breakup of Standard Oil. Although its territory expanded over the years, it did not include CA . Last, I actually prefer the plastic handrails on the P2000 Type 21a. They flex enough without breaking, and rebound right back into shape if you squeeze one (gently). I did break one, but simply glued a butt joint to repair it (they are styrene). Tangent, which is the state of the art with plastic tank cars, uses plastic hand-rails, not brass, presumably because the brass gets bent and is a PITA to re-straighten. With best regards. -- Dave Parker Swall Meadows, CA |
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Sunshine B&O M27B 1950s color using Scalecoat I
Chuck Cover
Group,
I am working on a Sunshine #58.3 B&O M27B boxcar. I like to use Scalecoat paint and was wondering if someone could offer a color/color mix for this car in the early to mid-1950s? It seems as if B&O boxcars really varied in color over the years. Thanks Chuck Cover Santa Fe, NM |
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Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions
Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
Ken, You are correct. AFAIK, CONOCO did not have operations in California. I have Richard's February 1998 article before me. He says "In the 1940s and '50s, most Conoco cars were painted aluminum with black underframes, bottom sheets and lettering," and " . . . Continental Oil Company's Conoco was a mountain and plains states brand." I would go with SHPX as your best bet for a repaint. GATX and UTLX did have some 8K Type 21 tanks acquired second-hand, but they must have been rare. Richard's article shows one of each. You might also consider SCCX, Shell on the West Coast. Hope this is of help. Yours Aye, Garth Groff 🦆 On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 2:38 PM Ken Adams <smadanek44g@...> wrote: I picked up a slightly damaged (handrail busted) Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car at my Local Hobby Shop (open by appointment and you must wear a mask) from the used shelf. The paint scheme is a silver CONOCO. First, is this a foobie as a CONOCO car and if not what years would the silver paint scheme cover? |
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Re: Railroad-Owned Poultry Cars
earlyrail
Well in the Oct 1923 ORER he Southern had 24 SP (Poultry) cars series 44875 - 44899 I recall that one of the northeastern roads had a few, but can not locate then on a quick seatch Howard Garner |
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CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions
I picked up a slightly damaged (handrail busted) Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car at my Local Hobby Shop (open by appointment and you must wear a mask) from the used shelf. The paint scheme is a silver CONOCO. First, is this a foobie as a CONOCO car and if not what years would the silver paint scheme cover?
I am interested in adding this as at least one ACF Type 21 uninsulated car to my growing line of tank cars to be shuttled around the small yard of my early 1950's Port Costa, California layout. I acquired several of the insulated Type 21 CDLX cars as unsold from the NMRA 2011 National Convention a few years back. I have done a search on this groups pages to see if there is any relevant information. I have been trying to open the Train Life copy of the February 1998 Rail Model Journal for Richard Hendrickson's article on Type 21's but after 60 minutes only 3 pages of that article have appeared. One page that did downloaded indicated that CONOCO tank cars would be used mostly in the Colorado, Texas and eastern high plains states. If so a CONOCO car might not be appropriate sitting in a California Bay Area yard for any period of time. None of the research thus far has really answered my questions. I understand there is also an article on replacing the easily broken handrails with metal rails in another RMJ article. I do have hypodermic needle tube on hand. Unfortunately my recent experience with PSC cast brass handrails has not been very good (difficult to drill out rail holes) but I have several Tichy tank car detailing sets with stanchions on hand to try next. As I have to replace the handrails, repainting is not out of the question to another black painted leasing/operating company scheme. -- Ken Adams Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek |
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Re: 1950s model manufacturers - was Train-Master vs. Train-Miniature
Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 07:08 AM, Peter Ness wrote:
That would be Al Armitage, the "dean of styrene". With that booklet he singlehandedly changed the course of scratchbuilding (and pattern making) in our hobby. As to the Revell engine house/bakery/print shop, that was cast tooling. The brickwork has so much character because every single one of those scale size bricks was placed in the pattern by hand. The problem I've always had with the old wood craftsman kits was the maker's insistence on using Northeastern scribed wood for the car siding, the stuff with the inch wide gaps for board grooves. The hobby didn't get a decent representation of V groove siding until Evergreen came out with their scribed sheet in the late seventies. Dennis Storzek |
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Re: Railroad-Owned Poultry Cars
Jake Schaible
Just so happens I have a Dec '24 ORER hard copy, but unsure the best way to find what you are looking for - short of going through the entire book page by page. Bought it some time back, but have since shifted my layout era to Spring of '27 so don't need or use it. It's available for sale, if interested. (Loose & chip cover, but binding otherwise tight and pages are great and flexible.)
-J |
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