Date   

Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Eric Hansmann
 

Is the red decal for a narrow gauge prototype?


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Jun 27, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Richard Townsend via groups.io <richtownsend@...> wrote:

This intrigues me. I checked my stash of Champ decals and the diagram, copyright 1948, calls out a "bright red" tank. I've dug through all the sources I can think of and have found no sign of a red Conoco tank car. But that  by no means indicates that there weren't any. I hope someone comes up with confirmation of a red car.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Rich C via groups.io <rhcdmc@...>
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2020 12:31 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Group, Don't want to get too far off topic. I have a burning question though about this Conoco paint scheme. Champ made a decal set. I have not found any evidence of this scheme. Disregard the model's maker.

Thanks,
Rich Christie


Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Richard Townsend
 

This intrigues me. I checked my stash of Champ decals and the diagram, copyright 1948, calls out a "bright red" tank. I've dug through all the sources I can think of and have found no sign of a red Conoco tank car. But that  by no means indicates that there weren't any. I hope someone comes up with confirmation of a red car.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Rich C via groups.io <rhcdmc@...>
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2020 12:31 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Group, Don't want to get too far off topic. I have a burning question though about this Conoco paint scheme. Champ made a decal set. I have not found any evidence of this scheme. Disregard the model's maker.

Thanks,
Rich Christie


Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Tony Thompson
 

Ken Adams wrote:

The correct locations for the period are:
Shell at Martinez - predominantly  GATX?
Tidewater/Associated at Avon - predominantly UTLX
Union Oil/Phillips 66 at Rodeo - predominantly  ?

         Shell had their own tank car fleet, both SCMX and SCCX (the latter for Shell Chemical, shipping such things as alcohols). Tidewater Associated (the correct company name) had their own fleet of AOX and TWOX and TIDX cars. Union had a big fleet of UOCX cars.
          All these companies used leased cars when they needed a few more, mostly GATX but definitely some NATX and SHPX. And these companies sold each other product on occasion, the reason you might see one company's cars being loaded at another company's rack, and likewise delivering to another company's dealer.

Maybe there were just much fewer/none plain old crude/refined oil product shipments by the early 1950's as the vast network of pipelines carried much of the inbound and outbound Carquinez Straits petroleum product traffic.  Every refinery was also directly linked to by pipeline or had it's own oil dock carrying huge volumes of crude and refined product in large tanker vessels. One of the key reasons refineries were located in that area.

     This is true, and especially for crude oil, all via pipeline or ship. But refined products had to go to a great many places not served by ships or pipelines, thus railcars.

Tony Thompson




Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Dave Parker
 

At the risk of going way too far down into the weeds:

In 1921, Oildom published a list of all of the operating US refineries.  Atlantic had four, three in PA and (a real rarity) one in GA.

From what I can dredge out of the University of Google, Atlantic's facility in Port Arthur was initially just a crude oil terminal for shipping Spindletop crude to the four refineries.  Refining activity began in 1936, and became more sophisticated during the war and in the 1950s.

To circle back to freight cars, Atlantic probably didn't need any in Port Arthur until the late 1930s at the earliest.  Atlantic Refining (ARX) had a teeny tank-car fleet in the 1930s -- just four cars, but of 12,000-gal capacity.  They must have leased cars for almost all of their rail traffic, but from whom I don't know.  Perhaps UTLX, but Atlantic was a bit of a maverick among the 11 baby standards, so perhaps not.

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

mopacfirst
 

I know we're getting a bit off topic here, but the Atlantic Refinery at Port Arthur was founded around 1917, more than likely to draw from the Beaumont and East Texas oilfields, and to ship refined product from there to their marketing territory.  We dug up some redwood pipe there in 2007 or so that had probably been installed for the first refinery units, referencing another topic related to steam era freight cars that has been discussed on this list.  I suspect that Arco probably unloaded the refinery due to its age, as evidenced by the fact that Fina built a lot of new units, which used large equipment that came to the site on more modern freight cars.

I once looked to see whether the sidings in front of the plant still had anything like a sign that marked them as Atreco, but I never did see any.

Ron Merrick


Athearn offset twins WTB

Richard Townsend
 

I'm looking for a couple of cheap Athearn offset twin hopper bodies for a kitbash idea I want to try. It has a limited chance of success so I don't want to spend much money. Peaked or flat ends irrelevant.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


HO Models for sale

Brian Carlson
 

Continuing to "thin the herd".  I have some models for sale, plastic and resin kits and RTR. The list is short so I attached it to this post. If interested in any contact me OFF LIST at prrk41361 _at_ yahoo _dot_ com. Shipping is by USPS priority Mail. PayPal (Friends and Family) and Checks accepted.

Brian Carlson 


Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Dave Parker
 

Just to clarify a bit on some oil company history in the steam era:

Atlantic was one of the 11 "baby standard" spinoffs from the 1911 breakup of Standard Oil.  Its assigned territory was just PA and DE, and it was unique in that it declined its exclusive marketing rights there, thus freeing it up to operate retail outlets just about anywhere. With the addition of some southeast and Gulf Coast infrastructure, Atlantic became a name brand up and down the east coast (and perhaps over into Ohio).  The merger with Ritchfield to create what eventually became Arco occurred in 1965, beyond the scope of this group.

Continental (Conoco) was the Rocky Mountain baby standard, and initially assigned ID, MT, WY, UT, CO, and NM.  Backed by some J P Morgan financing, Conoco gobbled up a number of smaller oil companies, allowing it to aggressively expand its territory across the heartland, and even (briefly, in the 1940s) to the mid-Atlantic states.  In the 1950s, Conoco tried unsuccessfully to expand westward to the Pacific coast.  Thus, for most of our period of interest, Conoco's territory was largely comprised of its original six-state area, plus AZ and a wide swath of states extending north from TX and east to IL and KY
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


B&O M15k S scale pilot model update

Jim King
 

This email with attached photos was previously sent to all modelers who have prepaid for this kit.  If you missed out on the earlier announcements (spanning several months) and still want to purchase a kit or 12 (that’s a “beer joke” from the John Boy & Billy radio show 😊), contact me off-list to make arrangement.

 

The attached 2 photos show status of the M15k body as of today.  Remaining are adding LOTS of Archer rivets to the side post extensions and end sills, a few door track supports, a styrene backing strip behind the side post extensions and final check.  Looks like it’ll take a couple days early next week to get this done, then let everything dry overnight, do a final check, then prep for rubber mold by Thursday night.  So far, the other castings that have been in production for a few months, including the underframe that you see in the broadside photo, fit as intended (whew!).

 

The underframe was designed around a fishbelly design based on the original M15 car from the late teens.  No drawings exist that I’ve found for this car, so I based the design on a 40-ft car from the early 20s (thank you Don Thompson for that drawings!) and Sunshine Models and Westerfield Models who produced the M15k in HO.  The truck centers are correct for the B&O car and are very close to “generic” spacing.  The intermediate crossbearers (the little ones between the bolsters) do not line up with the wagontop body’s side posts … this is NOT an oversight on my part; this is prototypical.  B&O made an all-new steel body to fit the ancient M15 underframe, which was too narrow for the wider body, hence the spacers behind the posts which created the characteristic “notch appearance”.

 

The next photos I send will be of the completed pilot model, except for painting/decaling.

 

Jim King

http://smokymountainmodelworks.com/

 


Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

anthony wagner
 

Ron, Look up Atlantic Petrolium Co in Wikipedia. Hq in Philadelphia PA  later became Atlantic-Richfield, still later Arco, and finally part of Sunoco. Part of Arco was sold to BP.  Conoco was Continental Oil and Transportation Co hq Ogden Utah and has a much more complex history. As of 2002 the company merged with Phillips Petroleum to become Conoco-Phillips. Basically Atlantic was eastern US and Conoco western US during the steam era. Tony Wagner

On Saturday, June 27, 2020, 2:16:52 PM CDT, mopacfirst <ron.merrick@...> wrote:


For information, the Atlantic Refining Co. refinery mentioned was acquired by Fina (American Petrofina) past the timeline of this list, and operated under that name for upwards of thirty years.  The Fina company was acquired by Total (pronounced to-TAL) and exists today, greatly expanded.  Atreco was a siding, and the plant's physical location is at the north edge of Port Arthur, bordered on the west by Port Neches.  The railroad serving it was and is the KCS.

Ron Merrick


Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Ken Adams
 

Oops "switched" in my list of Carquinez south shore refineries to be switched by local power from Port Costa in the early 1950's.

The correct locations for the period are:
Shell at Martinez - predominantly  GATX?
Tidewater/Associated at Avon - predominantly UTLX
Union Oil/Phillips 66 at Rodeo - predominantly  ?

Who did Shell use for tank car transportation inbound and outbound? Garth's list indicates GATX and Tidewater UTLX with a mix of others?   Ted Culotta's blog https://prototopics.blogspot.com/2019/12/shell-chemical-tank-cars-colors.html
has some interesting information but it is for Shell chemical tanks not plain old crude/refined oil shipments.  John Barry's 1944 list is very interesting. Would the 1950-54 period which I model have a similar car owner distribution?

Maybe there were just much fewer/none plain old crude/refined oil product shipments by the early 1950's as the vast network of pipelines carried much of the inbound and outbound Carquinez Straits petroleum product traffic.  Every refinery was also directly linked to by pipeline or had it's own oil dock carrying huge volumes of crude and refined product in large tanker vessels. One of the key reasons refineries were located in that area.

Every time I visit my LHS Just Trains store in north Concord I have to remember that the storage tanks across Arnold Drive to the north are the start of the vast former Tidewater/Associated refinery complex. A small Avon yard still exists according to Google Earth but all of Avon is off limits due to strict refinery security. Avon was of course also the northern start/terminus of my other detail modeling interest, the SP San Ramon Valley line. 

--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek


Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Richard Townsend
 

In the billboard scheme, all I have ever seen is black CONOCO on silver and white CONOCO on black. Black on red would be cool if it ever existed. Maybe a holdover from the old UTC days?

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Rich C via groups.io <rhcdmc@...>
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2020 12:31 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Group, Don't want to get too far off topic. I have a burning question though about this Conoco paint scheme. Champ made a decal set. I have not found any evidence of this scheme. Disregard the model's maker.

Thanks,
Rich Christie


Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Rich C
 

Group, Don't want to get too far off topic. I have a burning question though about this Conoco paint scheme. Champ made a decal set. I have not found any evidence of this scheme. Disregard the model's maker.

Thanks,
Rich Christie


Re: CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

mopacfirst
 

For information, the Atlantic Refining Co. refinery mentioned was acquired by Fina (American Petrofina) past the timeline of this list, and operated under that name for upwards of thirty years.  The Fina company was acquired by Total (pronounced to-TAL) and exists today, greatly expanded.  Atreco was a siding, and the plant's physical location is at the north edge of Port Arthur, bordered on the west by Port Neches.  The railroad serving it was and is the KCS.

Ron Merrick


Re: 1950s model manufacturers - was Train-Master vs. Train-Miniature

Kenneth Montero
 

Walthers also produced the Ulrich metal hopper cars.

Ken Montero

On 06/27/2020 2:25 PM Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:


Peter Ness wrote:

Ulrich – at one time Walthers appeared to at least manage this line along with Silver Streak; I think the products were identified as “a division of Wm K Walthers” on packaging. As of a couple years ago, someone turned up in an ebay search who was still selling limited Ulrich vehicle cast metal parts under the Ulrich name.

     Walthers bought the dies and produced the GS gondola cars for a time; I have several in Walthers kit boxes. The gentleman in Colorado who obtained the dies from Walthers really only wanted to do the highway trucks, and to my knowledge never re-issued any freight cars.

To keep this within STMFC content; It’s amazing (to me) that “back in the day” some manufacturers really made such a top effort to produce both accurate and detailed freight car kits working with the available technology. .. (they) would still stand up with many of today’s offerings. 

     Very true. I have enjoyed owning (and restoring) a number of HO scale classic freight car models, including an excellent Athearn metal tank car, as described in a blog post. If you're interested, here is a link:


Tony Thompson




Re: Car weighting

Schuyler Larrabee
 

That’s fine, Eric, but what happens when you take your equipment to another layout?  I don’t even HAVE a home layout (yet) but I’m a member of a major club, the North Shore Model Railroad Club (www.nsmrc.org ) and one of the major issues that arise in ops there are cars that are either under or (far) over weight standards.  OK, fine, the weight recommendations in the RP.  Whatever, as I said before, it is a (de facto) standard.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Eric Hansmann
Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2020 9:33 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Car weighting

 

The NMRA car weight is not a standard it is a recommended practice. Here’s the PDF for RP-20.1 Car Weight. 

 

Many modelers use this guide for their own standards, but it is not an NMRA defined standard for modeling and manufacturing. As noted on the document, it’s a recommended practice (RP).

 

For my models, I use this RP to determine the car weight but install 75% of that recommendation. My train length hardly hits 20 cars and I don’t have any grades. Nearly all the models roll on metal wheel sets in trucks manufactured within the last 40 years. 

 

Determine what works best for your layout parameters and use the NMRA car weight RP to guide your own standard. 

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 


On Jun 26, 2020, at 8:31 PM, Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

Tony, with the improvements in the free-rolling of
trucks due to better wheels and more accurately
fitted axle lengths (yes, I know REBOXX is out of
business, but there's hope for another source),
locomotive performance has been enhanced
tremendously.  The irony of improved trucks isn't
that they roll better, that's obvious, but the
apparent improvement of your existing locomotives
because the free rolling trucks let them pull
more.

I use the NMRA standards for weighting cars simply
because that's what it is: a standard.

Schuyler


Re: 1950s model manufacturers - was Train-Master vs. Train-Miniature

Tony Thompson
 

Peter Ness wrote:

Ulrich – at one time Walthers appeared to at least manage this line along with Silver Streak; I think the products were identified as “a division of Wm K Walthers” on packaging. As of a couple years ago, someone turned up in an ebay search who was still selling limited Ulrich vehicle cast metal parts under the Ulrich name.

     Walthers bought the dies and produced the GS gondola cars for a time; I have several in Walthers kit boxes. The gentleman in Colorado who obtained the dies from Walthers really only wanted to do the highway trucks, and to my knowledge never re-issued any freight cars.

To keep this within STMFC content; It’s amazing (to me) that “back in the day” some manufacturers really made such a top effort to produce both accurate and detailed freight car kits working with the available technology. .. (they) would still stand up with many of today’s offerings. 

     Very true. I have enjoyed owning (and restoring) a number of HO scale classic freight car models, including an excellent Athearn metal tank car, as described in a blog post. If you're interested, here is a link:


Tony Thompson




Ethyl Corporation Tank Car EBAX 3197

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Andy Miller (might be on this list) modeled one of the attached cars by printing the paint scheme on a thin plastic wrapper that covered the car, and applying the dome afterwards.  Very clever and a good looking car.

 

Thanks, Garth, for the image.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford

 

Attached is a photo of an Ethyl tank car on the WP circa 1978 at Oroville. Note how small the car is.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff  🦆

 


Re: Tetra Ethyl lead cars (Was Conoco)

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Ken,

EBAX 3197, the car I shot, is not in my 1958 ORER. That said, I just took a look at the EBAX roster there. While there are a number of 3,000 gallon cars, most are 6,000. Most are ICC 105A300W TPI cars, though a few of the 3K cars are ICC105A300, which AIUI means they are riveted. They have the lowest numbers, suggesting they are the oldest cars in the fleet. Not surprisingly, the majority of the 831 car fleet are restricted to carrying "Motor Fuel Anti-Knock Compound", that is tetraethyllead. There are a few cars listed as carrying metalic sodium, ethyl chloride, Muriatic Acid, and chlorine gas, which I presume are constituent chemicals used to make anti-knock compounds, or are by-products of the process being shipped to other industries. These cars ranged from 7 to 11K.

By the way, there was also an Ethyl Corporation of Canada which rostered 42 cars under the ECCX mark. All are indicated as for tetraethyllead. They are all 3K or 6K cars classed as ICC 105A300W TPI.

I did not know about DuPont making this stuff, but I remember that I saw some of their cars on the WP as well. Dupont had a large chemical plant somewhere west of Pittsburg, and I have some shots of one of their locomotives. This might have been where their cars in the WP trains were headed. Of  course, DuPont made a lot of other nasty stuff as well as tetraethyllead. I have some negatives somewhere, and I will probably get to them in my next big scan campaign later this year when I start work on my California stuff from the 1960s and 1970s.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 12:00 PM akerboomk <ken-akerboom@...> wrote:

Garth –

I was somewhere (NMRA? RPM?) where Scott Chatfield talked about tank cars, and he covered some Tetraethyl lead cars (among others)

To your questions:

-       They were small (IIRC the cars he talked about were 4000 gal, but I may be wrong)

-       The cars he talked about were not lined

-       The cars he talked about were contaminated

-       When they were “end of lifed” (IIRC due to 40/50 year rule), they were disposed of in a “creative” way.

 

I’d rather not say how…

 

Ken


--
Ken Akerboom


Re: Car weighting

James E Kubanick
 

I have always felt that the NMRA RP was too heavy and, for many years, have arbitrarily used 100gm. as my target weight. I have a large fleet of freight cars of every imaginable construction material and run them randomly in 40 - 50 car trains on grades. Some of these cars cannot be weighted to 100gm. and some already exceed that "limit' but all seem to run well together.

I am, however, very careful on having free-rolling trucks with metal wheelsets (of all makes) on all of my cars. Also, I am very fussy on coupler alignment - a mix of Kadee 5"s and 58's.These are all steam era cars. I do try to minimize these variables, but it is impossible to do so with a large fleet. Still, I nave no restrictions on freight car mix or volume in freight train makeup. Perhaps I could drop my standard yo, say, 75--75gms, but I'm in too deep to change-now and this is what works for me. .

By now, I have thoroughly convinces myself that the NMRA recommendation is far out of date and should be taken less seriously.

Jim Kubanick
Morgantown WV

On Saturday, June 27, 2020, 11:04:44 AM EDT, vapeurchapelon <j.markwart@...> wrote:


Bud, Tony, Bruce, and others,

when I started to model US prototypes more than 20 years ago I definitely wanted to run 100+ car trains with only one (larger) steam engine because this was reality for decades and is the main reason for my fascination of that era. Because of no available room and no ability to build an own layout I was restricted to "carpet or floor railroading". I purchased the only really useful track for this purpose (ROCO LINE) and choose not to use any unrealistically small curves - and the only one large enough from that company is 80" radius. The next smaller one is 35" which is already too small.
After building maybe 20 Proto 2k and Intermountain and Red Caboose kits and installing the weights per instructions and assembling these cars on a track for first trial runs I quickly thought "forget the 100 car train!"
Instantly I choose to remove all that dead weight and just add metal wheels (and Kadee couplers of course) to try how this would work - and it was very fine. I build about 120 more such kits - all without any additional weight - and frequently ran all of them in one train without any problems.
Then I wanted to "stretch the idea as far as I could" - I took the lightest car - Red Caboose 42' fishbelly side flat - re-equipped it with the original plastic wheel sets so it weighed only scary 15 grams and put it directly behind the engine. ZERO problems again. It also didn't make any difference to run some bad-rolling NMRA-weighted cars in between. One only had to be a little careful with acceleration and braking - which just adds to prototypical appearence...

Of course 80" curves are very large. Today - at the FREMO - I run half of that, and still have to try how those light weights will run there. Last year I have had a 64-car 100%-brass freight train running (mostly converted to Tahoe trucks) which went very well, too. Brass cars weigh in about 5 oz average, but the lightest one is a small frame-less tank car having only 63 grams. I had this one placed in the forward half of the train, but it really felt good, seemingly. No derailments.

As another member pointed out the NMRA rcommendations are from a time with VERY differently weighted cars and lots of bad-rolling trucks and smaller radius curves. Today I think those weights are much higher than necessary.
With the experiences mentioned above I would GUESS that steam era freight cars with free-rolling trucks (which have to be mounted properly and straight!) and metal wheel sets but without additional weight would safely run in long trains at 50" radius curves.

Sorry for the long posting.

Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953



> Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Juni 2020 um 03:17 Uhr
> Von: "Tony Thompson" <tony@...>
> An: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
> Betreff: Re: [RealSTMFC] Car weighting
>
> Bruce Metcalf wrote:
>
> > I use the NMRA weights in HO. I have also found that when there are problems, it's not the absolute weight, but combinations of light and heavy cars in one train. That, or putting light cars or just too many cars around too-tight curves.
>
>      There were studies in the model magazines back in the 1950s that concluded (possibly correctly) that the biggest factor in car weight performance was CONSISTENT car weight. As Bruce says, mixing heavier and lighter cars can bite you. I think one could very probably choose a weight below the NMRA weight now recommended, but the key would be, again, to STICK to that weight and get as close as you can with every car.
>      I continue to use the NMRA weight, but then again, I don't have any heavy grades that can hurt locomotive performance.
>
> Tony Thompson
> tony@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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