main@RealSTMFC.groups.io

Re: Train-Master vs. Train-Miniature

Dave Lawler

#175037

Good day all,

I have several very old packs of Champ Decals that were:

“Mfd. By Champion Model Co. Cleveland 2, Ohio”

Here’s where it was founded.

Best regards,

David Lawler

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Article & Photos: Carnegie Freight Cars

Gatwood, Elden J SAD

#175036

Group;

These are fascinating cars, different from many other roads', in that they were built to meet specific customer needs, in this case being loading of cold-rolled steel coils.  Thus, the 8' door for fork lifts using a large prong to maneuver the coil thru the doorway and into place at the car ends/over the trucks.

This extreme loading process for a box car is what led EJ&E, B&LE, PRR and other steel-loading roads, to reinforce the somewhat weak center of the car, sometimes in retrospect, by application of a bolster-to-bolster channel side sill reinforcement.  B&LE, for example, rebuilt their XM-5 version of the '37 AAR car, with a reinforced side sill, almost bolster-to-bolster.  Later cars, recognized by the owner as inadequate, also got heavy side sill reinforcements, as attached.

PRR-ordered '44 AAR cars were furnished with 7' and 8' doors, for use in services like this, were also determined to be weak when loaded like that, so were reinforced in a big rebuilding campaign, in similar manner.

I hope that adds to understanding of these cars.

Elden Gatwood

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of David via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 6:55 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Article & Photos: Carnegie Freight Cars

Here's a look at the first Schoen-designed car for PB&LE:
Blockedhttps://play.google.com/books/reader?id=Cs81AQAAMAAJ&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA584

And the various trucks under that initial order:
Blockedhttps://play.google.com/books/reader?id=2s9LAAAAYAAJ&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA472

David Thompson

Re: EJ&E 61026 12-panel riveted 40' box car

Rick Jesionowski

#175035

Decals for the EJ&E Car are now available from Mask Island Decals.

Rick Jesionowski

Re: Railroad-Owned Poultry Cars

James Brewer

#175034

I did a search on the N&WHS archives (nwhs.org). N&W had Class SC poultry cars but there are no photos or general arrangement drawings in the data base.

Jim Brewer

Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] EJ&E 61026 12-panel riveted 40' box car

Gatwood, Elden J SAD

#175033

Beautiful car, Steve! Great work!

Whose decals did you use?

Thanks!

Elden Gatwood

Show quoted text

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of pennsylvania1954
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 12:21 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] EJ&E 61026 12-panel riveted 40' box car

Since you brought it up. 61216 after repaint to green with the map scheme. Photos seem to indicate the lower side sill extension was applied when built; note that 61206 above has NEW for reweigh. Open door? Yes, I cheated. The open door hides the lack of body work to make the door opening on the Intermountain shell actually 8 ft. Jerry Glow decals, but I don't see them on Tichy now.
--
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL

Re: Picture help?

Douglas Harding

#175032

Thanks Steve. You offer more information than I had.

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

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From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve and Barb Hile
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 12:27 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Picture help?

Hi Doug,

From Eric Neubauer’s early Pullman builder’s document, I see that OWC&I 2000-2199 were built by Pullman under lot C1466 in 1887, probably 33 feet long.

It also appears that the Ohio and Western Coal and Iron was one of those Gilded Age companies that lived and died fairly quickly based on financial shenanigans. I see mention of the Columbus Hocking Valley and Toledo in some of the articles and they may have been the inheritors of OWC&I 2000-2199.

Hope this is helpful.

Regards,

Steve Hile

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Douglas Harding
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 11:24 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Picture help?

This morning I was asked if I had a photo or any information on the gon to the right in this photo. It appears to be lettered for the Ohio & Western Coal & Iron Co. Which was a company registered in New York state, and which failed in 1899 after some lawsuits.

Can anyone help?

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

Re: Train-Master vs. Train-Miniature

Tony Thompson

#175031

Richard Balewrote:

Globe was originated by Hal Prendergast and purchased by Athearn

This conflicts with what was in Model Railroader in the late 1940s. It stated that Globe was founded in 1942 by Frank Taylor, who had been editor of MR, joined by well-known O scale modeler and scratch builder Carl Traub. The company began in Milwaukee, located at 4224 Lincoln, before moving to Chicago about 1950. Athearn bought them in July 1951.

I know of no connection with Hal Prendergast, unless he facilitated the Athearn purchase.

Tony Thompson

tony@...

Re: Picture help?

Steve and Barb Hile

#175030

Hi Doug,

From Eric Neubauer’s early Pullman builder’s document, I see that OWC&I 2000-2199 were built by Pullman under lot C1466 in 1887, probably 33 feet long.

It also appears that the Ohio and Western Coal and Iron was one of those Gilded Age companies that lived and died fairly quickly based on financial shenanigans. I see mention of the Columbus Hocking Valley and Toledo in some of the articles and they may have been the inheritors of OWC&I 2000-2199.

Hope this is helpful.

Regards,

Steve Hile

Show quoted text

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Douglas Harding
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 11:24 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Picture help?

This morning I was asked if I had a photo or any information on the gon to the right in this photo. It appears to be lettered for the Ohio & Western Coal & Iron Co. Which was a company registered in New York state, and which failed in 1899 after some lawsuits.

Can anyone help?

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

EJ&E 61216 12-panel riveted 40' box car

Andy Carlson

#175029

Steve, what a cleaver idea to easily combat the visual geometry problems of an 8' door on a 6' door car body. Makes me think "Why didn't I think of that"!

-Andy Carlson

Ojai CA

Since you brought it up. 61216 after repaint to green with the map scheme. Photos seem to indicate the lower side sill extension was applied when built; note that 61206 above has NEW for reweigh. Open door? Yes, I cheated. The open door hides the lack of body work to make the door opening on the Intermountain shell actually 8 ft. Jerry Glow decals, but I don't see them on Tichy now.
--
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL

_._,_._,_

Picture help?

Douglas Harding

#175028

This morning I was asked if I had a photo or any information on the gon to the right in this photo. It appears to be lettered for the Ohio & Western Coal & Iron Co. Which was a company registered in New York state, and which failed in 1899 after some lawsuits.

Can anyone help?

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

Re: EJ&E 61026 12-panel riveted 40' box car

pennsylvania1954

#175027

Since you brought it up. 61216 after repaint to green with the map scheme. Photos seem to indicate the lower side sill extension was applied when built; note that 61206 above has NEW for reweigh. Open door? Yes, I cheated. The open door hides the lack of body work to make the door opening on the Intermountain shell actually 8 ft. Jerry Glow decals, but I don't see them on Tichy now.
--
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL

Re: TIDX 1648 GATC tank car

Tony Thompson

#175026

Nope, not Associated but the midwestern subsidiary. They used TIDX for years. See my blog post on Tidewater Associated.

Tony Thompson

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On Jun 29, 2020, at 5:28 PM, Andy Carlson <midcentury@...> wrote:

With a reweigh of 5-59 this barely fits in our era of preference. My notes has this as a Tidewater tank car, if so I suppose it would be a west coast Associated Oil Co. Flying A portion of the merger. A break from the more common black tank cars. My friend, Brent MacGregor, has the original Kodachrome and would be happy to provide high quality digital prints for this car and thousands of others.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

<TIDX1648 Tidewater.jpg>

<TIDX1648 Tidewater.jpg>

Re: Train-Master vs. Train-Miniature

Schuyler Larrabee

#175025

“Champion was never in SoCal: Champion was never in SoCal”

I am not sure that is entirely true. It’s my understanding (though I have no documentation) that Champion was begun by Max Gray, who was interested in providing accurate decals for the models he imported. At some point, Richard Meyer bought that part of Max’s business and set it up as a separate company. MG was in Southern California, and I believe that Mr. Meyer was also at the time he bought the decal business, and then he later moved to Minot, ND.

I said no documentation, but Google presents this:

Which leads you to this:

http://www.minot.com/champ/#:~:text=This%20hobby%20is%20truly%20a,you%20all%20the%20very%20best.

That doesn’t prove that Champ was originally in SoCal, but that’s been my impression for quite some time.

Schuyler

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From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Richard Bale via groups.io
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 3:55 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Train-Master vs. Train-Miniature

Bob...

There's lots of good information on your chart. Thanks for publishing it. Here is some additional notes to fill-in a few of your boxes:

Athearn was purchased by the Geddes Family, than by Horizon Hobby

Bowser was founded by William “Bill” Bowser

Champion was never in SoCal

Globe was originated by Hal Prendergast and purchased by Athearn

The founders of Kadee were Keith and Dale Edwards

Lindsay was subsequently purchased by Kemtron

Model Die Casting was established by Charles Voelckel and Clarence Menteer. It was eventually acquired by Horizon Hobby

Silver Streak was originated by Hal Prendergast, purchased by Athearn, than sold to Mr. Menzies of G&G Hobby Supply, San Dimas.

Ulrich was subsequently purchased by Walthers

Weston Mini-Figures was purchased by Campbell Scale Models

In a message dated 6/25/2020 4:29:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, chiefbobbb@... writes:

1950s Southern California Model RR Manufacturers
I've had discussions with several people who are/were model railroad manufacturers and asked them about their fellow model railroad manufacturers who were in Southern California in the 1950s. This was golden age locally with many firms located in the area.
I learned in those days long past the manufacturers were somewhat of a fraternity who frequently met socially (usually monthly) to discuss the hobby and product plans.
Sometimes they traded product lines that were either in development or on the market.
I started to compile a list of Southern California manufacturers from the decade of the 1950s. The current list is below. It is based on advertisements placed in Model Railroader in the 1950 through 1959 January issues plus interviews with folks who were still alive to confirm details.
One point I will mention is how to pronounce the name "Suydam". I learned from the son of one of the company founders that it is pronounced "So Damn", as in "It is so damn hot outside".
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA
++++
1950s Southern California Model RR Manufacturers

Company
Primary Products
City
Original Owner(s)
Subsequent Owner(s)

A.C.I.
Locomotive
Long Beach

Ace Products
Roadbed
Pasadena

Art Fleming Models
Grab Irons, Car Kits
Studio City

Athearn
O & HO Models
Los Angeles
Irvin R. Athearn

Ayres Models
Structures
Garden Grove
Thomas Ayres

Baumgarten
Track Cleaner
Santa Barbara

Beemax Plastics
Structures
Los Angeles

Bert Welch Co.
Trees & Bushes
Los Angeles

Bill Johnson Model Trains
O Scale Passenger Cars
Long Beach

Binkley Models
HO, HOn3 Kits
Inglewood

Blue Line Products
Passenger Cars
Spring Valley

Bowser
Steam Loco & Parts
Redlands

Lewis English (1961)
Boxcar Ken
Rail
Los Angeles

Budd Model Co.
Steam Loco Parts
Sherman Oaks

C. J. Ulrich
Track Cleaner, Signals
North Hollywood
Charles J. Ulrich

Central Valley
Trucks, Car Kits
North Hollywood
George Hook
Jack Parker, Jeff Parker
Champion Model Co.
Decals
North Hollywood

Cliff Line
Caboose Kit
North Hollywood

Devore
O & HO Couplers
South Pasadena

Don Fowler Co.
Semaphore, Crossing Gate, Wig-Wag
Los Angeles

E. Suydam & Co.
Structures
Pasadena, Duarte
Edward C. Suydam, Douglas R. Suydam

Electronic Sales Co.
Power Supplies, Motors, Controls
Los Angeles

G. L. Electronics
Power Supplies, Motors, Controls
Los Angeles

Globe

Hi-Ballers Corp.
Link & Pin Couplers, Car Kits
Burbank

Joseph B. Maier
Live Steam Loco Plans
Pacoima

Kadee
Couplers
Reseda
Dale Edwards

Kurtz-Kraft Models Co.
Signals,Switch Machines, Car Kits, Parts
Long Beach, Tarzana
Albert Kurtz, Jr.

KWR, Inc.
Locomotives
Los Angeles

Lindsay Products, Inc.
Locomotives, Motors, Spiker
Culver City
Robert Lindsay

Little Engines
Live Steam Loco & Parts
Lomita

Mod-Ac Mfg. Co.
Hansom Cab
Los Angeles

Model Builder's Supply Co.
Hot Metal Car, Water Tank
Duarte

Model Die Casting
Couplers, Handcars, Paint
Los Angeles
Clarence Mentier

Model Engineering Works
O & HO Parts, Kits
Monrovia
Richard Wheeler

Model Toy Mfg. Co.
Structures
Burbank

Modelcraft Printing Services
Doors, Windows
Pasadena

Models & Miniatures Specialties
Scenery Supplies
San Dimas

Modelton
Structures, Billboard Posters
Burbank

Moyes J. Murphy
Power Supplies
Arcadia

Olson-Spencer
Builders Plates
Los Angeles

Pacific Design & Development Co.
Motors
El Segundo

Pactra Chemical Co.
Paint
Los Angeles

Revell
Train Sets
Hollywood
Lewis H. Glaser

Robico
O & HO Locomotive, Cars
Universal City

Rollins House Miniatures
Detail Parts
Covina, Cucamonga

Silver Streak Corp.
Car Kits
Los Angeles

Standard Wire & Cable
Power Supplies, Motors, Controls
Culver City

Stewart-Lundahl Co.
Paint (310M)
North Hollywood

Ulrich?
Town-Craft Models
O & HO Structures
Hermosa Beach

Tru-Scale
Track & Roadbed
San Dimas
August A. Kniff
Cliff Meistel
W. H. Olson
Builders Plates
Los Angeles

Wesley Mfg. Co.
Cannonball Products, Ore Cars
Van Nuys

Western Narrow Gauge Model Shop
Track Gauge
Inglewood

Zenith Model Co.
Power Supplies
Los Angeles

Clover Custom Decals
Decals
Santa Monica

Silver Streak (Truce Scale))
Car Kits
San Dimas

K & O Models
Locomotive, Power Pack
Van Nuys

G. F. Harbin
Reostat
San Dimas

Gaylord Products
Power Supplies, Controls
Van Nuys

Wright Enterprises/MHP

Thousand Oaks
Dick Wright

1950 Champ decals in North Hollywood, 1951 Champion Decal Co. in Fresno, 1959 in San Jose
1950 Kurtz-Kraft in Burlingame, 1953 in Long Beach, 1955 in Oroville
Olson-Spencer probably same as W. H. Olson
1958 Weston Mini-Figure Co. in Healdsburg
1959 Clover Decals in Santa Rosa
1959 Cal-Scale in Pinedale

Re: Train-Master vs. Train-Miniature

Schuyler Larrabee

#175024

Well, yes, it IS important. Especially when there are remarks such as Richard Bale’s about the

the Tru-Scale work train including the well-executed Hart convertible gondola which were all issued under the Train-Miniature name.

That information is news to me, as was the information that Richard Hendrickson was initially involved in TM. Knowing his dedication to accuracy and that he then dropped out of the group makes a lot of sense to me.

Schuyler

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From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 10:21 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Train-Master vs. Train-Miniature

... so we have degenerated into paying attention to the history of who made
what models and when - instead of what models best represent what
prototype and how to improve them to make them more accurate or make
them operate better ... and this is important?
- Jim

D&LW 55161 riveted 12-panel box car

Andy Carlson

#175023

From the Gerstley collection of mostly 1958 photos. A 8' wide door 12-panel riveted box car. Taken in LA's Taylor Yard of the SP. These 12-panel 40' box cars came with Superior or Youngstown doors.

-Andy Carlson

Ojai CA

Re: Train-Master vs. Train-Miniature

Jim Betz

#175022

... so we have degenerated into paying attention to the history of who made
what models and when - instead of what models best represent what
prototype and how to improve them to make them more accurate or make
them operate better ... and this is important?
- Jim

Re: Railroad-Owned Poultry Cars

Steve SANDIFER

#175021

Some railroads purchased poultry cars. The 1906 ORER includes the Delaware, Lackawanna & Western with 50, the Pittsburg, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis with 25, and the Columbus, Sandusky & Hocking with an unstated number. The Southern had 57 in 1917 of their own design and the Pennsylvania Railroad had 13. Canadian National had two in the late 20s. Canadian Pacific had two cars in 1930, four in 1945.

J. Stephen Sandifer

Show quoted text

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 11:50 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Railroad-Owned Poultry Cars

Railroad-Owned Poultry Cars

According to the book, Car Shop Practice, from the Board of Railway Mechanical Officials and the Railway Training Institute (published in 1925), there were 24 railroad-owned poultry cars in service in 1924.

Does anyone have a 1924 ORER that would tell us which railroads owned these poultry cars?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

TIDX 1648 GATC tank car

David

#175020

Not GATC, but an example of the uncommon AC&F Type 26 (the car to the right may be another one).

David Thompson

EJ&E 61026 12-panel riveted 40' box car

Andy Carlson

#175019

Ed Hawkins' list on the web site "Steam Era Freight Cars" lists these EJ&E cars as built in 1948, have a 7 panel 8' wide superior door (with the thin top panel only done in '48 and '49) Ajax brake gear Gypsum or apex running boards and A3 ride control trucks. In the series of 60900-61399. 500 cars in this series. Most notably to me is the lower height of only 10'0". Thin R+3/4 Improved Dreadnaught end. The lower side sill extension was applied in 1958 according to the notes. A super-cool STMFC car!

Re: TIDX 1648 GATC tank car

Tony Thompson

#175018

I wrote:

Nope, not Associated but the midwestern subsidiary. They used TIDX for years. See my blog post on Tidewater Associated.

Sorry, forgot to include the link to the blog post on the company history, including the Tidewater Midcontinent Division that used TIDX. Here it is:

https://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2013/12/associated-oil-company-background.html

Tony Thompson

tony@...