Date   

Re: Canning Co. traffic

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Maybe there is a source on the subject?
http://www.cannedfood.org/steel-can.html
http://www.cancentral.com/index.htm
http://www.steel.org/containers/spc/can_manufacturing.htm


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@attbi.com>
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Canning Co. traffic

Rich Chapin <rwc27q@...>
 

The use of an acid to clean a steel surface is a common industrial
practice., called pickling. It is the pre-step to application of a top
coating of the steel ( or whatever the base metal is), to assure its clean
and a good surface bond is achieved. Especially important in plating of one
metal onto another, like tin on the steel. A large facility could be
expected to receive tank car loads of acid.

Regards, Rich Chapin

Original Message -----
From: "Dave Nelson" <muskoka@attbi.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 9:45 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Canning Co. traffic


Cans are not tin they're steel. Why they're still called tin cans is
beyond
me.

I've read that acids were used on sheet steel but I do not know to what
purpose. Perhaps Tony Thompson can explain.

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Kirkham [mailto:rdkirkham@shaw.ca]
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 12:09 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Canning Co. traffic


The discussion of canning operations is of interest to me as I intend to
model at least the facade and dedicated siding to the American
Can plant in
Vancouver B.C. While I have numerous photos, none show any other
car types
except box cars.

But from what I am reading in some of your e-mails, it appears
that canning
factories did more than simply shape and solder sheets of tin into
cans -
they also treated the metal in some way (that I have yet to understand).
And from what Peter Boylan says, this involved acids. So it appears to
me
there are multiple car types that would have been used to serve
an American
Cannign Co. factory mid century or slightly earlier (tank cars, perhaps
gondolas?). Is this supposition true? - and if so, would it be
true at all
of their factories, or only at a select few. (I.e. did some factories
supply partially prepared material to other factories for final
assembly, or
did each plant do the whole job from beggining to end?)

Since this question is premised on an incomplete understanding of what
can
manufacturing companies do, perhaps someone knows a source that
describes
the basic operations. I can guess there would be cutting sheet tin into
strips, rolling it and soldering it, and then mechanically placing and
sealing the ends. But my impression from other email is that there are
precursor steps as well.

Maybe there is a source on the subject?

Rob Kirkham



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Re: Atlas HO Tank Cars

Len Allman <allmansipe@...>
 

Anyone have information on GLOBE Petroleum (silver
tankcar with black lettering) AS RECENTLY ISSUED IN O
scale rtr?

Thanks,
len Allman


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Kato ERIE 70 ton AC&F cov. hopper was LL ERIE gon

Bruce F. Smith <smithbf@...>
 

Schuyler sez:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie21100bdb.jpg
<snip>
What I had not noticed before is that the prototype blt date is 4-46, where
the model is lettered 3-49, and there's a few other minor discrepancies in
lettering. Now, that's annoying!
and Don replied:
Carrying things one step further one might as well say that Bruce was
correct
in stating that Kato never released these cars decorated for the Erie in that
they used the wrong car! Look at the photo you have posted, Schuyler, and you
will note it is one of the cars Kato offered later with the open panels
between
the hoppers. The A-3 Ride Control trucks are not proper for the nit-pickers.
Other than these points and a less than adequate lettering job it's a
great car!
Don, thanks for trying to save me from looking stupid, but in reality, I'm
wrong, and KATO may have been, at least partially correct (although the
build date sounds like it might be in error). I plead ignorance since the
first run ERIE hoppers were sold out before I became "aware" of freight
cars as anything other than filler between locos and cabins...

I'm surprised Richard hasn't chimed in (except he's probably still asleep),
but his Railmodel Journal article of Sept 1997 has two nice photos of ERIE
car #21031, and both show the solid sides. They also show the SINGLE hatch
latch, rather than the double latch on the model. I believe that the
first series of 50 cars (#21000-21049) were built in 1942. The article
says March,the photo shows a NEW 3-42 date and one of my EL cars says
8-42...

A second series of 100 cars was built, #21100-21199, starting in May, 1946,
and using the open panel hopper design, as in the link above.

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Canning Co. traffic

Steven Delibert <stevdel@...>
 

"Tin cans" are tin-plated steel, which is too much of a mouthful for
most consumers, ergo, tin cans.
I believe acids were used for a "pickling" process when the tinning was
done by "hot dip" methods; I think now it is done by an electrolytic
process, and pickling may not be necessary.
Steve Delibert

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Nelson" <muskoka@attbi.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 9:45 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Canning Co. traffic


Cans are not tin they're steel. Why they're still called tin cans is
beyond
me.

I've read that acids were used on sheet steel but I do not know to what


Re: Canning Co. traffic

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

Rolled steel has oils on it from the rolling process. Pickling removes the
oils so that the tin can be, um . . . applied? to the steel.

SGL

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Delibert" <stevdel@prodigy.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Canning Co. traffic


"Tin cans" are tin-plated steel, which is too much of a mouthful for
most consumers, ergo, tin cans.
I believe acids were used for a "pickling" process when the tinning
was
done by "hot dip" methods; I think now it is done by an electrolytic
process, and pickling may not be necessary.
Steve Delibert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Nelson" <muskoka@attbi.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 9:45 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Canning Co. traffic


Cans are not tin they're steel. Why they're still called tin cans is
beyond
me.

I've read that acids were used on sheet steel but I do not know to what



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New file uploaded to STMFC

STMFC@...
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
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Re: Canning Co. traffic

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Cans are not tin they're steel. Why they're still called tin cans is beyond
me.

I've read that acids were used on sheet steel but I do not know to what
purpose. Perhaps Tony Thompson can explain.

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Kirkham [mailto:rdkirkham@shaw.ca]
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 12:09 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Canning Co. traffic


The discussion of canning operations is of interest to me as I intend to
model at least the facade and dedicated siding to the American
Can plant in
Vancouver B.C. While I have numerous photos, none show any other
car types
except box cars.

But from what I am reading in some of your e-mails, it appears
that canning
factories did more than simply shape and solder sheets of tin into cans -
they also treated the metal in some way (that I have yet to understand).
And from what Peter Boylan says, this involved acids. So it appears to me
there are multiple car types that would have been used to serve
an American
Cannign Co. factory mid century or slightly earlier (tank cars, perhaps
gondolas?). Is this supposition true? - and if so, would it be
true at all
of their factories, or only at a select few. (I.e. did some factories
supply partially prepared material to other factories for final
assembly, or
did each plant do the whole job from beggining to end?)

Since this question is premised on an incomplete understanding of what can
manufacturing companies do, perhaps someone knows a source that describes
the basic operations. I can guess there would be cutting sheet tin into
strips, rolling it and soldering it, and then mechanically placing and
sealing the ends. But my impression from other email is that there are
precursor steps as well.

Maybe there is a source on the subject?

Rob Kirkham



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Re: American "draft gear" couplers

BlackDiamondRR@...
 

Hello list, Not to get off the subject of steam era freight cars, for those
unaware, the American railroads use of the knuckle coupler, permits among
other things, the ability to start long trains through "slack action".
Believe it or not, long trains are actually started from standstill one car
at a time. The European system does not permit this and as a result their
trains were much shorter and lighter tonnage. This slack action was
especially important in "steam era" days as steam locos needed it moreso than
the diesels (higher tractive effort at low speeds). Bud Rindfleisch


Re: Deep Rock Oil Corporation Tank Cars

Thomas Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

Thanks Richard,

I have been picking up tank car decals from Champ and these are still
available. It would be interesting to see if any of the leased cars ever
turned up with the "Deep Rock" lettering on the sides.

Kim at Champ is working on the Ethyl car decals along with several
Barrett sets for me. The most unusual of the Barrett cars is the 10K
capacity covered hopper tank car that was used to transport roofing
shingle granules. This car was covered in the September 1986 MLM by
John Nehrich. So far, I have had 14 out-of production tank car sets
done from the ALPS printer. I will let you know how the Ethyl decals
come out as you were kind enough to send the scans that I am using to
have the decals made.

I will have a lot of time to scratch these cars as I am retiring fom the
railroad in early December.

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
PH: (302) 738-4292
tmolsen@udel.edu

Richard Hendrickson wrote:


List,

Does anyone know what became of Deep Rock Oil Corporation? The company
was listed in the January 1950 ORER (eff. 10/49), but was no longer in
the listings in the April 1951 (eff. 1/51) register.

It would be interesting to know whether the company went out of business
or was merged with another oil firm, and what became of it's
distinctively marked tank car fleet.
Tom, I have a vague recollection that Deep Rock's tank fleet was sold to
one of the big leasing companies (probably GATC) and leased back, but I'd
have to do some digging in my files to confirm that. At any rate, the DRX
entry was gone from the 10/1950 ORER, so whatever happened, that's the year
in which it took place.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


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Re: Express reefer addendum

Thomas Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

The Walthers riveted express reefer is a model of the General American
Car Company AAR Class "BR" Express Reefer that was delivered to REA in
1957. They are somewhat similar to the original "BR" fleet of welded
cars that were delivered to REA by ACF in 1948.

The 1957 riveted car has been out as a brass model twice in the last ten
years. First by Precision Scale and the second time by Challenger
Models.

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
PH: (302) 738-4292
tmolsen@udel.edu

"Andrew S. Miller" wrote:


As an addendum to my llama dung comment, the Walthers cars are very
good. They model the second series of REA cars built in the mid-late
50s. Branchline has been promising the 1948 series for some time now.
But I've been holding my breath for 3 years now waiting for those cars.
The 1948 cars had a different roof, different trucks, and were welded.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================
prrfc2249 wrote:

Sorry, first post sent early in error. Was questioning accuracy of
MDC 50' Express Reefer in REA paint scheme. Also questioning
accuracy to prototype of the Walthers' 50' riveted steel Express
Reefers in various color schemes provided. Thanks again. Ron

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Canning Co. traffic

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

The discussion of canning operations is of interest to me as I intend to
model at least the facade and dedicated siding to the American Can plant in
Vancouver B.C. While I have numerous photos, none show any other car types
except box cars.

But from what I am reading in some of your e-mails, it appears that canning
factories did more than simply shape and solder sheets of tin into cans -
they also treated the metal in some way (that I have yet to understand).
And from what Peter Boylan says, this involved acids. So it appears to me
there are multiple car types that would have been used to serve an American
Cannign Co. factory mid century or slightly earlier (tank cars, perhaps
gondolas?). Is this supposition true? - and if so, would it be true at all
of their factories, or only at a select few. (I.e. did some factories
supply partially prepared material to other factories for final assembly, or
did each plant do the whole job from beggining to end?)

Since this question is premised on an incomplete understanding of what can
manufacturing companies do, perhaps someone knows a source that describes
the basic operations. I can guess there would be cutting sheet tin into
strips, rolling it and soldering it, and then mechanically placing and
sealing the ends. But my impression from other email is that there are
precursor steps as well.

Maybe there is a source on the subject?

Rob Kirkham


Re: LL ERIE gon

Don Valentine
 

Carrying things one step further one might as well say that Bruce was correct
in stating that Kato never released these cars decorated for the Erie in that
they used the wrong car! Look at the photo you have posted, Schuyler, and you
will note it is one of the cars Kato offered later with the open panels between
the hoppers. The A-3 Ride Control trucks are not proper for the nit-pickers.
Other than these points and a less than adequate lettering job it's a great car!

Take care, Don Valentine




uoting Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@ix.netcom.com>:

Bruce, comparing my Kato factory-decorated ERIE ACF covered hopper (but
you
knew that by now) to the L-L gon, the short answer is "no."

The rib spacing on the ACF car resulted in a very small diamond,
smaller
than the one on the gon. However, not as small as the one on the model
as
decorated by Kato. The limitations of pad printing meant that they
couldn't
get the tips of the diamond to touch the ribs on either side. See:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie21100bdb.jpg

The ELHS offered replacement diamond for the L-L car is slightly too
large
to fit properly between the model's ribs.

What I had not noticed before is that the prototype blt date is 4-46,
where
the model is lettered 3-49, and there's a few other minor discrepancies
in
lettering. Now, that's annoying!

And no, I don't know of a good alternative for the diamond.

SGL


loading cans

fastmail57 <jppjharper@...>
 

The description of loading cans is correct for the 1950s. The device
for picking off a couple of dozen cans off the conveyor was known as
a "fork". Conveyor extensions went right into the car and and were
moved back to the door as the car filled. This was a very labor
intensive job. By the end of the 50s beer and beverage cans were
loaded into customers 24 can retail cardboard packages and loaded
palletized. By the 1960s cans were stacked on pallets to eight foot
height with a slab of chipboard between layers, banded and loaded
with fork lifts. By that time 50 foot cars were the norm but few
cans still went by rail. A check of car numbers for cars to the
cannery in Minnesota shows that anything still listed in my 1957 ORER
was a 40 footer. As far as loss of business to trucks there was no
generral rule. The heavier commodities like tinplate stayed on rail
longest but many other factors such as custmer unloading facilites
etc were a factor. Some plants had a good rail siding but streets
were too narrow to back in a 40 foot semitrailer. Rail held onto some
of the tinplate business by offeering a good rate for ten or more
cars tendered at the same time for the same destination. These ran
into the 1970s usuallly arriving at Milwaukee in all EJ&E 50 foot 70
ton cars. Tinplate was 85% of the cost of a finished can so it was
ordered in endless base weights, tin thickness and widths to match
different can sizes. It was not always easy to put together a ten
car order at one time. JPHarper


Fw: LL ERIE gon

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

After a review with Jay Held, we can offer these decals for the price listed
below in the original post, but for a P&H charge of $1.50 for up to three
sets.

SGL

----- Original Message -----
From: "Schuyler G Larrabee" <SGL2@ix.netcom.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] LL ERIE gon


*Shameless plug*

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Hildebrand" <SteamFreight@hilstudio.com>

Ron mentions:


of it...), but in researching a car number to use on the LifeLike EL gon
that I'm backdating to Erie . . .
First, I wonder why Ron's backdating an EL gon, when they came decorated
for
ERIE to begin with (in an earlier run, I admit). . . .

But this might be an opportune time to mention that the ELHS has available
"Retrofit decals for the Proto 2000 ERIE Gondola" which modify the
original
diamond applied by Life-Like, which is the pre-1941 style, to the later
version which has the taller ERIE inside the diamond. The decal matches
the
Life-Like diamond in size, and can be applied right over the original
decoration. If you have these cars and are modeling 1941 to ~1963 and
want
ERIE lettering, or want to correct things for EL lettering, you can make
good use of these decals.

ELHS is in the process of developing a website, so I can't offer a view of
these decals just yet, but they include enough to do the following:

2 Erie gons (with the new-style diamond)
5 EL gons (with the correct size diamond and correct-size roadnumbers)
2 "patch job" EL gons (EL roman lettering over the "ERIE" lettering)
Plus additional smaller lettering for the Safety First logos and
Mahwah/Weehawken Ford service


To order, send a letter to:

Jay Held
Erie Lackawanna Historical Society
10-10 Ellis Avenue
Fair Lawn NJ 07410

along with a check payable to ELHS. These decal sets are $4.50 per set.
P&H is $6.95, for up to six sets, in the US. Overseas, $10.00. BTW,
these
decals were prepared for us by Paul Tupaczewski, of Prime Mover Decals.
http://www.primemoverdecals.com/



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Re: LL ERIE gon

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

Bruce, comparing my Kato factory-decorated ERIE ACF covered hopper (but you
knew that by now) to the L-L gon, the short answer is "no."

The rib spacing on the ACF car resulted in a very small diamond, smaller
than the one on the gon. However, not as small as the one on the model as
decorated by Kato. The limitations of pad printing meant that they couldn't
get the tips of the diamond to touch the ribs on either side. See:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie21100bdb.jpg

The ELHS offered replacement diamond for the L-L car is slightly too large
to fit properly between the model's ribs.

What I had not noticed before is that the prototype blt date is 4-46, where
the model is lettered 3-49, and there's a few other minor discrepancies in
lettering. Now, that's annoying!

And no, I don't know of a good alternative for the diamond.

SGL

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] LL ERIE gon


Schuyler G Larrabee sez:

But this might be an opportune time to mention that the ELHS has
available
"Retrofit decals for the Proto 2000 ERIE Gondola" which modify the
original
diamond applied by Life-Like, which is the pre-1941 style, to the later
version which has the taller ERIE inside the diamond.
Which brings me to an ERIE "back dating" project I have...I am backdating
three Kato EL AC&F covered hoppers to their original ERIE paint and
lettering...are the ERIE sets from the ELHS appropriate for that car
(aside
from the weight stencils...)?

As for why I'm backdating, the obvious reason is that KATO never released
these cars in ERTIE and I model 1944...however, the real reason is that I
bought the cars after looking at the BLT date (pre 1944) and completely
zoned on the fact that EL didn't exist in '44!!! One day, running them in
a train, it suddenly dawned on me that there was a problem...duuuuuh

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin
Franklin
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ____________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|____________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0




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Re: For those using pennies for weight in cars...

tchenoweth@...
 

A coupler height gauge is a must. Once they are adjusted I've never had a car
uncouple. I'm been using them exclusively since they were available, with the
exception of #78 on the resin cars where possible and #2100 for Kadee cars.
Tom Chenoweth


Re: MDC 50' Express Reefer

Don Valentine
 

Quoting "Andrew S. Miller" <asmiller@mitre.org>:

Its a very good match. Unfortunately, only for an experimental
Bolivian
car for exporting llama dung ;-) But I'm probably revealing myself as
a
rivet counter. With the recently released REA cars from Walthers,
there's little reason to consider the MDC "thing".

Actually, Andy, about the only thing you are "revealing" is that in the
nearly forty years I've know you, you haven't changed a bit.....which a lot
of us can be very thankful for! (-:

Take care, Don


Re: For those using pennies for weight in cars...

Don Valentine
 

Quoting thompson@signaturepress.com:

Don Valentine, perhaps enviously with today's weather, wrote:
Ah, yes! What was it the famous bard, Lucius Beebe, wrote about
California?
Quting directly from The Provocative Pen of Lucius Beebe it was, "It
is
akin to
a nuthouse run by the inmates turned loose!". But one must ask why it
was
necessary to elect them all to public office after turning them loose!
Californians aren't nuttier than other Americans, Don; they just
don't
hide it, like New Englanders do. <bg>

I love it, Tony (or aren't you supposed to spell it "Toney" in Ca.?),
but I've had absolutely no complaint with the weather here today so there
is no envy at all.

Take care, Don


Re: Why do Euro cars have buffers and N. Americans not?

James D Thompson <jaydeet@...>
 

In the pre WWI period, many North American cars also had buffers,but they
were placed close together above the coupler. They were often called
deadwoods.
I don't know that I'd say "many", but deadblocks were used most often in
the thirty years before World War I as a means of keeping the couplers
themselves from taking the full brunt of a hard coupling. The development
of more rugged couplers and draft gear obsoleted them, and many roads
removed them in the 1920s.

David Thompson

175061 - 175080 of 192596