Date   

Re: Aluminum body reefers

Mont Switzer
 

Tony,

 

Correct me if I have this wrong --- like I know you will.

 

I'm thinking PFE paid the railroads by the mile to handle their cars, not by the ton, so the only benefit of lighter aluminum cars was to the shipper.  He could load tonnage on the aluminum car. 

 

This sort of mirrors the slow adoption of roller bearing trucks on freight cars.  Railroads liked to equip cars with roller bearings that stayed on home rails thus allowing any benefit from the additional investment to come back to the investor.  No sense investing in making your cars easier for other railroads to pull them.

 

Mont Switzer


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] on behalf of Tony Thompson [tony@...]
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 8:48 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Aluminum body reefers

Ron Merrick wrote:

. . . they are curiosities, and their history says a lot about the history of engineering innovations and the developments in materials science . . . Aluminum reefers seemed like an attractive target for experimentation given the relative heaviness of the steel reefer body compared to tare weight, but unfortunately they were probably one of the most troublesome since a reefer body is wet most of the time, and even worse with the salt involved, given the potential for galvanic corrosion between the steel frame and the body.  

     Can't speak for other owners, but the two PFE cars were perfectly fine in service, with minimal corrosion problems -- as the retired PFE CMO told me, certainly no more corrosion problems than with steel. This speaks to a design with careful insulation between aluminum and steel parts to minimize galvanic corrosion.
     Both PFE cars were damaged in wrecks, 20 years or so after being built, and were retired for that reason, not for any inadequate performance. So why weren't there more of them built? 
      Again, I can't speak for any other owner, but the PFE answer was, that the aluminum companies, Alcoa and Reynolds, had provided a very substantial discount on the cost of the aluminum. PFE felt there was absolutely no way they could justify paying for such a car themselves.

Tony Thompson




Re: IC green and yellow refrigerators

Tim O'Connor
 


The car in McComb is the IC aluminum ice reefer.


On 7/15/2020 1:55 PM, mopacfirst wrote:
Replying to my own post ---

On second thought, maybe the aluminum is not painted.  I'm looking at the black rivets in the sidesills.

RG7

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Aluminum body reefers

Tony Thompson
 

Ron Merrick wrote:

. . . they are curiosities, and their history says a lot about the history of engineering innovations and the developments in materials science . . . Aluminum reefers seemed like an attractive target for experimentation given the relative heaviness of the steel reefer body compared to tare weight, but unfortunately they were probably one of the most troublesome since a reefer body is wet most of the time, and even worse with the salt involved, given the potential for galvanic corrosion between the steel frame and the body.  

     Can't speak for other owners, but the two PFE cars were perfectly fine in service, with minimal corrosion problems -- as the retired PFE CMO told me, certainly no more corrosion problems than with steel. This speaks to a design with careful insulation between aluminum and steel parts to minimize galvanic corrosion.
     Both PFE cars were damaged in wrecks, 20 years or so after being built, and were retired for that reason, not for any inadequate performance. So why weren't there more of them built? 
      Again, I can't speak for any other owner, but the PFE answer was, that the aluminum companies, Alcoa and Reynolds, had provided a very substantial discount on the cost of the aluminum. PFE felt there was absolutely no way they could justify paying for such a car themselves.

Tony Thompson




Re: Aluminum body reefers, was IC green and yellow refrigerators

Richard Townsend
 

Canadian National got five. Maybe I should dust off my "early aluminum freight cars" clinic. 

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: mopacfirst <ron.merrick@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jul 15, 2020 4:36 pm
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Aluminum body reefers, was IC green and yellow refrigerators

I didn't know about the FGE one. In addition to the IC one, there were two built for SFRD and two built for PFE.  Both of those builds were covered in detail, one in the Santa Fe ice reefer book and the other in Tony's PFE book.  Does anyone know of others?

For my modeling purposes, these cars are of no interest, because the chance of any of them (except perhaps the IC car, in banana service) being on my railroad would have been vanishingly small.  But they are curiosities, and their history says a lot about the history of engineering innovations and the developments in materials science.  These cars are perhaps more closely related to the relatively large group of aluminum-bodied passenger cars that were also built after the war, in terms of their design challenges.  Aluminum reefers seemed like an attractive target for experimentation given the relative heaviness of the steel reefer body compared to tare weight, but unfortunately they were probably one of the most troublesome since a reefer body is wet most of the time, and even worse with the salt involved, given the potential for galvanic corrosion between the steel frame and the body.  The promise of mechanical refrigeration more than likely rendered any further aluminum reefer experiments pointless.

So it looks then like the IC 51000 may be the only survivor of these experiments.

Ron Merrick


Re: Photo: Chicago & Alton Hopper Car 25101

Eric Hansmann
 

Any idea what the G.G. initials represent after the Capacity 100000 line? I suspect Gross is one of the words.


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Jul 15, 2020, at 6:16 PM, David via groups.io <jaydeet2001=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Pressed Steel Car "straight sill" hopper, from series 25010-25159, built in 1900. PSC built over 7,000 of these between 1900-1904. This photo is far and away the most detailed image I've ever seen for this design.

David Thompson




Aluminum body reefers, was IC green and yellow refrigerators

mopacfirst
 

I didn't know about the FGE one. In addition to the IC one, there were two built for SFRD and two built for PFE.  Both of those builds were covered in detail, one in the Santa Fe ice reefer book and the other in Tony's PFE book.  Does anyone know of others?

For my modeling purposes, these cars are of no interest, because the chance of any of them (except perhaps the IC car, in banana service) being on my railroad would have been vanishingly small.  But they are curiosities, and their history says a lot about the history of engineering innovations and the developments in materials science.  These cars are perhaps more closely related to the relatively large group of aluminum-bodied passenger cars that were also built after the war, in terms of their design challenges.  Aluminum reefers seemed like an attractive target for experimentation given the relative heaviness of the steel reefer body compared to tare weight, but unfortunately they were probably one of the most troublesome since a reefer body is wet most of the time, and even worse with the salt involved, given the potential for galvanic corrosion between the steel frame and the body.  The promise of mechanical refrigeration more than likely rendered any further aluminum reefer experiments pointless.

So it looks then like the IC 51000 may be the only survivor of these experiments.

Ron Merrick


Photo: Chicago & Alton Hopper Car 25101

David
 

Pressed Steel Car "straight sill" hopper, from series 25010-25159, built in 1900.  PSC built over 7,000  of these between 1900-1904. This photo is far and away the most detailed image I've ever seen for this design.

David Thompson


Re: IC green and yellow refrigerators

Bill Welch
 

Fruit Growers Express also built an aluminum reefer in 1946—FGEX 40000—and exhibited it widely within its territory before being putting into service. It rode on Roller Bearing Andrews trucks. It was rebuilt in late 1957-early 1958 with new electric fans, new aluminum sheathing, and a built-in underslung heater and commensurate piping under the floor racks. It was sold for scrap in the early 1970's. With its Improved Dreadnaught ends it looks very much like a PFE 40-23.

Bill Welch


Re: IC green and yellow refrigerators

Jeffrey White
 

Ron,

IC 5100 is on display at McComb MS.  It was the only car built and the only one in the natural aluminum finish.  It was built in 1946.

Jeff White

Alma, IL

On 7/15/2020 10:08 AM, mopacfirst wrote:
I think there's one at McComb, Mississippi, on the west side of the main line right opposite the station.  It's under roof, along with some stuff that's not freight cars.  I've only seen the side of it that you can see from the train.  It's probably in the last scheme.

This car has significance for me because the line that brought the banana cars to my city was the MP, from St. Louis I presume.

Ron Merrick


Re: IC green and yellow refrigerators

Richard Townsend
 

I can't say whether it is or isn't, but everything I see in the photos is consistent with the original aluminum IC 51000. The extended sill, the extended tabs at the bolsters, the locations of the various tack boards, the fan plate, end type, ladders and handholds, all are the same. For those who care, it was built in 1946. It was built with a Duryea underframe, ASF A-3 Ride Control trucks, Morton running board and brake step.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Thompson <tony@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Wed, Jul 15, 2020 10:32 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] IC green and yellow refrigerators

Ron Merrick wrote:

I do have two photos of the McComb car, had to bracket the car because of the closeness to the track.  I agree they're useless for paint, but perhaps interesting for detail.  This car has extended sidesill reinforcements, six-rung ladders and round-corner ends.  It's numbered 51000, so I'm not sure how it relates to the cars discussed here.

     The real 51000 was an aluminum car. Could this possibly, actually, be that car?

Tony Thompson




Re: IC green and yellow refrigerators

mopacfirst
 

Replying to my own post ---

On second thought, maybe the aluminum is not painted.  I'm looking at the black rivets in the sidesills.

RG7


Re: IC green and yellow refrigerators

mopacfirst
 

For comparison to the photos that someone else may have of this car when it was new ----

This car has certainly been painted, including some graffiti removal efforts.  The black hardware may also be a clue, assuming that whoever painted the car last followed the original scheme.  I'll say the stenciling looks good, not crude the way some restorers who don't understand the purpose of the stenciling try to do.

Ron Merrick


Re: IC green and yellow refrigerators

Tony Thompson
 

Ron Merrick wrote:

I do have two photos of the McComb car, had to bracket the car because of the closeness to the track.  I agree they're useless for paint, but perhaps interesting for detail.  This car has extended sidesill reinforcements, six-rung ladders and round-corner ends.  It's numbered 51000, so I'm not sure how it relates to the cars discussed here.

     The real 51000 was an aluminum car. Could this possibly, actually, be that car?

Tony Thompson




Re: IC green and yellow refrigerators

mopacfirst
 

I do have two photos of the McComb car, had to bracket the car because of the closeness to the track.  I agree they're useless for paint, but perhaps interesting for detail.  This car has extended sidesill reinforcements, six-rung ladders and round-corner ends.  It's numbered 51000, so I'm not sure how it relates to the cars discussed here.

How close is the Intermountain 'R-40-10' to the car being discussed, specifically the first series?

Ron Merrick


Re: EJ&E diagonal plate loader

Rich C
 

Sorry guys, not enough coffee here. I totally misunderstood Elden's inquiry. Now I know what he was looking at. I zoomed in on the photo.

Great looking modeling subject, Mike.

I was correct about the bridge and location, though. They did repaint the bridge in a silver color.

On Wednesday, July 15, 2020, 10:51:14 AM CDT, Michael Aufderheide <mononinmonon@...> wrote:


Attached two views of a similar/same car.  I pulled these off the net long ago and do not recall the source.  Definitely interesting cars!

Mike Aufderheide


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] EJ&E diagonal plate loader

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Mike;

 

Thanks for those fabulous photos!

 

I have been fascinated with diagonal plate loaders ever since my early research on the PRR’s F25B,C,D&E sub-classes, and the late G36 cars.

 

I had no idea they cut the ends to allow longer plates to extend out.  That’d make a great set of models!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Michael Aufderheide
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 11:51 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] EJ&E diagonal plate loader

 

Attached two views of a similar/same car.  I pulled these off the net long ago and do not recall the source.  Definitely interesting cars!

Mike Aufderheide


Re: EJ&E diagonal plate loader

 

Attached two views of a similar/same car.  I pulled these off the net long ago and do not recall the source.  Definitely interesting cars!

Mike Aufderheide


Re: IC green and yellow refrigerators

pennsylvania1954
 

Google Maps is a help. Search for McComb MS. Over to the right, click on McComb Railroad Museum. Click on the museum photo at upper left to get a street view at the museum. Now you can "walk" down the street and turn left to get a partial view of the steel IC ice reefer behind the steam engine. Seems to be white, maybe light grey, on sides, end, and roof with black lettering. Nice that this is all under a roof. Sorry, Lester; this isn't any help for you.
--
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


Document: Rules For Loading Long Materials

Bob Chaparro
 

Document: Rules For Loading Long Materials

A 1908 PRR document archived by the PRR Railfan website:

http://prr.railfan.net/documents/pdf/GeneralNotices/GeneralNotice-176-F_RulesForLoadingLongMaterials_1908.pdf

This link may load very slowly.

The document has over 100 pages and contains charts and illustrations.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Photo: Chicago & Alton Hopper Car 25101

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Chicago & Alton Hopper Car 25101

A circa 1900 photo from the Library of Congress:

https://www.loc.gov/item/2016808838/

Use the Download box for larger versions of this photo.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

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