Date   

Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956) now PRR cars

Schuyler Larrabee
 

If I am not mistaken, the LV had a similar car.  I have a brass model that I’ve painted, though it’s in a box and I’ve not seen it for quite a while.

 

Schuyler

 


Re: Image of string of boxcars Chicago IL 1952

Bruce Smith
 

Claus,

Two flags - Each flag was placed by someone working on the cars. This indicates multiple people working on/with these cars. You can only remove the flag you placed. This prevents someone removing someone else's blue flag protection by accident. My guess is that the loading dock personnel placed on, and the carman placed the other.

As for the hose, it sure looks like he is charging the brakes. If I were a betting person, I would bet that the other end of one of those strings is connected, not to a loco, but to a compressor. He's getting the strings ready to move and by charging the air, it will get them out faster. He may also be doing brake tests/inspections prior to the cars being pulled. "Yard air" was fairly common and allowed these things to occur without using valuable locomotive crew time. 

And what gives with the end of the car in the middle? At first, I though it might be an unpainted replacement panel, but instead it looks like spilled cargo that has seeped through the seam in the end? Clearly not a "tight" seam...

And of course, these photos are available directly from the Library of Congress as opposed to tumblr.

Regards
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;) <claus@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 8:50 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Image of string of boxcars Chicago IL 1952
 
Hi Jim and List Members,
 
Thanks Jim for the links.
 
Jim wrote: "Many Jack Delano photos, again discussed here prior. https://chicagopast.com/tagged/Illinois-Central-Railroad "
 
Within the above link I noticed the specific image linked below...
 
I see the trainman looks to have linked the brake hoses on two cuts of cars on two separate tracks. It looks like he did this with the railroad equivalent of an 'extension cord' connecting the two brakelines. What exactly is going on there? Is he using one engine (perhaps out of sight at the far end of one of these two cuts) to charge the brakes on both cuts? Perhaps the engine is already coupled onto one cut, and will then immediately couple onto the second cut, and then move both cuts together? Other ideas?
 
I note that every car has TWO blue flags - one on the coupler and another one on the end ladder
 
Claus Schlund
 
----- Original Message -----
From: np328
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Image of string of boxcars Chicago IL 1952

Here is a link to the Chicago Past website, I know I have posted this prior however it has some go railroad photos buried within and here some good color of the Pabst sign and railroad cars. 
Many Jack Delano photos, again discussed here prior. https://chicagopast.com/tagged/Illinois-Central-Railroad

My father who lived for many years in Chicago often had comments that echoed Michael's when we went down into the loop area as a family on short vacations and he revisited old haunts.   

I am always amazed at all the trackage on the north side of the river that served the Merchandise Mart, and extended out to the Navy Pier at one time in earlier years top of this photo
http://collections.carli.illinois.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/uic_caps/id/105                                                       Jim Dick  St. Paul, MN   


Re: Image of string of boxcars Chicago IL 1952

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Jim and List Members,
 
Thanks Jim for the links.
 
Jim wrote: "Many Jack Delano photos, again discussed here prior. https://chicagopast.com/tagged/Illinois-Central-Railroad "
 
Within the above link I noticed the specific image linked below...
 
I see the trainman looks to have linked the brake hoses on two cuts of cars on two separate tracks. It looks like he did this with the railroad equivalent of an 'extension cord' connecting the two brakelines. What exactly is going on there? Is he using one engine (perhaps out of sight at the far end of one of these two cuts) to charge the brakes on both cuts? Perhaps the engine is already coupled onto one cut, and will then immediately couple onto the second cut, and then move both cuts together? Other ideas?
 
I note that every car has TWO blue flags - one on the coupler and another one on the end ladder
 
Claus Schlund
 

----- Original Message -----
From: np328
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Image of string of boxcars Chicago IL 1952

Here is a link to the Chicago Past website, I know I have posted this prior however it has some go railroad photos buried within and here some good color of the Pabst sign and railroad cars. 
Many Jack Delano photos, again discussed here prior. https://chicagopast.com/tagged/Illinois-Central-Railroad

My father who lived for many years in Chicago often had comments that echoed Michael's when we went down into the loop area as a family on short vacations and he revisited old haunts.   

I am always amazed at all the trackage on the north side of the river that served the Merchandise Mart, and extended out to the Navy Pier at one time in earlier years top of this photo
http://collections.carli.illinois.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/uic_caps/id/105                                                       Jim Dick  St. Paul, MN   


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956) now PRR cars

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Thanks, Claus!

 

Note that these cars were designed at a time that engineers (the design kind) were trying to figure out how to make cars resistant to excessive bending (or failure), and had not yet figured out the best way to do it.  PRR’s answer was to rivet multiple strips of steel together to resist that bending, resulting in the look shown in these photos.  The top down of 425018 is instructive.

 

Since the sides adjacent to the hole were weaker, it was PRR’s intent to spread the load over the ends, like in photo of 425004. 

 

B&M had similar intent on their well cars, which were used for big GE products.  Big girders with end feet transferred the load over the ends, like 425004.

 

I had the luck to see an ex-PRR F37B (IIRC) on DoD property at one point, and crawled all over it.  What an anachronism!

 

Eventually, PRR went to GSI for a better replacement, the F49 shown.  What a beautiful car!!!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 8:56 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956) now PRR cars

 

Hi Elden and List Members,

 

Thanks for the great explanation of this situation and the multiple images.

 

Elden did not have a PRR class FN image to share with us, but there is one at the link below...

 

 

Claus Schlund

 

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 8:40 PM

Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956) now PRR cars

 

Folks;

 

It may be semantic, but take a look at these oddball flat cars (which I love), as examples of well and well hole flats.

 

The PRR FN was a 37-car class of well hole flats (I guess as opposed to well “pocket” flats), constructed between  1902 and 1915, to accommodate loads that could not be accommodated by other cars due to the intended height of the load, so were suspended over the rails on a pressed steel assembly of riveted steel members sandwiched one next to another.  I am sorry I do not have a photo to show you, but there are several in the PRRT&HS flat car book.

 

The FNA is a well flat with removeable flooring to convert it to well hole flat when needed.  These 20 cars were converted from FN between 1926 and 1929 for things like vessel screws (like the G25 screw cars, there were never enough during war time), but with more load capacity atop a wooden floor that could be removed.  FNA were very popular during WW2 for other loads, like for 40mm Bofors twin gun tubs, perhaps mounted horizontally (I am looking forward to those photos).

 

With wartime demand, PRR constructed an additional 20 flats as slightly longer versions of the FNA in 1942, as class F37.  The removable flooring and structural cross-members remained.

 

During 1950-53, 31 FN and FNA were rebuilt as 14 F37A (the remainder scrapped or held in reserve for conversion to F37B).  They also had floors atop structural members crossing the well.

 

The F37B were converted between 1948 and 1952, from original FN, with newer ends (longer) to accommodate their new brake gear at both ends of the car.  They were well hole flats, not provided floors, but with structural members on either end of the pocket.  See photos.

 

Semantic, no doubt, but interesting to some of us that find them fascinating.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 1:36 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Schuyler;

 

I don’t read that from either ORER or pic.  It has a wood floor, something you don’t generally have in a well HOLE flat, which has no cross-members beneath the “hole”, which this car has no evidence of.  No shadows beneath the car, either, which you usually see on well hole cars.

 

This looks to me to be a conversion of a “standard” flat car, to one with a shallow well, in which the cross-members/bearers have been replaced in the well, by I-beams either welded, bolted, or riveted (I cannot see), to the bottom of the side sill, and reinforced beneath, for support of the five replacements.  Removable floor supports generally have evidence of them in the form of brackets or additional reinforcements into which bolts are inserted, which do not appear here.

 

I pondered whether this might be a “sectional” well hole flat like PRR’s F49’s, but nothing appears different around a potential removable “section” that comes out to allow a further drop through the floor, like the excellent photo on the cover of the PRRT&HS flat car book.

 

All that being said, I remain open to convincing!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 12:57 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Elden, that is DEFINITELY a well-hole flat.  You can see in the panel where the LD LMT is shown that the bottom of the “pipe fitting” is below the deck.  And all that bracing, the timbers and the tie rods, are clearly temporary.

 

Schuyler

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 10:50 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Bob, all;

 

These GN cars are very interesting.  I know next to nothing about them, except what I can glean from photos.  I believe it is a well flat, not a well HOLE flat, since it does not look like the floor supports are removable.  I have wondered what GN needed these cars for, since it is usually an on-line customer that needed them.  These shipments were just lucrative enough that RRs could be convinced the roster them, otherwise….not.

 

The side members are surprisingly slender for a more typical well flat, which generally had deep side sills, but there is that u/f, which indicates the well is not that deep….

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2020 1:47 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

A photo from the Wisconsin Historical Society:

BlockedBlockedBlockedBlockedhttps://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM49938

Appears to be a well hole flat car.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956) now PRR cars

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Elden and List Members,
 
Thanks for the great explanation of this situation and the multiple images.
 
Elden did not have a PRR class FN image to share with us, but there is one at the link below...
 
 
Claus Schlund
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956) now PRR cars

Folks;

 

It may be semantic, but take a look at these oddball flat cars (which I love), as examples of well and well hole flats.

 

The PRR FN was a 37-car class of well hole flats (I guess as opposed to well “pocket” flats), constructed between  1902 and 1915, to accommodate loads that could not be accommodated by other cars due to the intended height of the load, so were suspended over the rails on a pressed steel assembly of riveted steel members sandwiched one next to another.  I am sorry I do not have a photo to show you, but there are several in the PRRT&HS flat car book.

 

The FNA is a well flat with removeable flooring to convert it to well hole flat when needed.  These 20 cars were converted from FN between 1926 and 1929 for things like vessel screws (like the G25 screw cars, there were never enough during war time), but with more load capacity atop a wooden floor that could be removed.  FNA were very popular during WW2 for other loads, like for 40mm Bofors twin gun tubs, perhaps mounted horizontally (I am looking forward to those photos).

 

With wartime demand, PRR constructed an additional 20 flats as slightly longer versions of the FNA in 1942, as class F37.  The removable flooring and structural cross-members remained.

 

During 1950-53, 31 FN and FNA were rebuilt as 14 F37A (the remainder scrapped or held in reserve for conversion to F37B).  They also had floors atop structural members crossing the well.

 

The F37B were converted between 1948 and 1952, from original FN, with newer ends (longer) to accommodate their new brake gear at both ends of the car.  They were well hole flats, not provided floors, but with structural members on either end of the pocket.  See photos.

 

Semantic, no doubt, but interesting to some of us that find them fascinating.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 1:36 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Schuyler;

 

I don’t read that from either ORER or pic.  It has a wood floor, something you don’t generally have in a well HOLE flat, which has no cross-members beneath the “hole”, which this car has no evidence of.  No shadows beneath the car, either, which you usually see on well hole cars.

 

This looks to me to be a conversion of a “standard” flat car, to one with a shallow well, in which the cross-members/bearers have been replaced in the well, by I-beams either welded, bolted, or riveted (I cannot see), to the bottom of the side sill, and reinforced beneath, for support of the five replacements.  Removable floor supports generally have evidence of them in the form of brackets or additional reinforcements into which bolts are inserted, which do not appear here.

 

I pondered whether this might be a “sectional” well hole flat like PRR’s F49’s, but nothing appears different around a potential removable “section” that comes out to allow a further drop through the floor, like the excellent photo on the cover of the PRRT&HS flat car book.

 

All that being said, I remain open to convincing!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 12:57 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Elden, that is DEFINITELY a well-hole flat.  You can see in the panel where the LD LMT is shown that the bottom of the “pipe fitting” is below the deck.  And all that bracing, the timbers and the tie rods, are clearly temporary.

 

Schuyler

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 10:50 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Bob, all;

 

These GN cars are very interesting.  I know next to nothing about them, except what I can glean from photos.  I believe it is a well flat, not a well HOLE flat, since it does not look like the floor supports are removable.  I have wondered what GN needed these cars for, since it is usually an on-line customer that needed them.  These shipments were just lucrative enough that RRs could be convinced the roster them, otherwise….not.

 

The side members are surprisingly slender for a more typical well flat, which generally had deep side sills, but there is that u/f, which indicates the well is not that deep….

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2020 1:47 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

A photo from the Wisconsin Historical Society:

BlockedBlockedBlockedhttps://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM49938

Appears to be a well hole flat car.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Vallejo box car red from micro-Mark

Eric Hansmann
 

IIRC, MicroMark added another label to Vallejo Model Air colors that corresponded with Polly-Scale color formulations.


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Jul 28, 2020, at 10:51 PM, Brian Carlson via groups.io <prrk41361=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I’ve been buying a lot of Vallejo paint lately as I get more used to it and I wanted to pick up a variety of browns and reds for rolling stock. MicroMark has boxcar red 29015X2. This is exactly the same as Vallejo 71.080 rust. MicroMark just stuck another label on it. Offering this email as a public service announcement so others don’t end up like me with three of the same color.🤦🏻‍♂️

Brian J. Carlson



Vallejo box car red from micro-Mark

Brian Carlson
 

I’ve been buying a lot of Vallejo paint lately as I get more used to it and I wanted to pick up a variety of browns and reds for rolling stock. MicroMark has boxcar red 29015X2. This is exactly the same as Vallejo 71.080 rust. MicroMark just stuck another label on it. Offering this email as a public service announcement so others don’t end up like me with three of the same color.🤦🏻‍♂️

Brian J. Carlson


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956) now PRR cars

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Folks;

 

It may be semantic, but take a look at these oddball flat cars (which I love), as examples of well and well hole flats.

 

The PRR FN was a 37-car class of well hole flats (I guess as opposed to well “pocket” flats), constructed between  1902 and 1915, to accommodate loads that could not be accommodated by other cars due to the intended height of the load, so were suspended over the rails on a pressed steel assembly of riveted steel members sandwiched one next to another.  I am sorry I do not have a photo to show you, but there are several in the PRRT&HS flat car book.

 

The FNA is a well flat with removeable flooring to convert it to well hole flat when needed.  These 20 cars were converted from FN between 1926 and 1929 for things like vessel screws (like the G25 screw cars, there were never enough during war time), but with more load capacity atop a wooden floor that could be removed.  FNA were very popular during WW2 for other loads, like for 40mm Bofors twin gun tubs, perhaps mounted horizontally (I am looking forward to those photos).

 

With wartime demand, PRR constructed an additional 20 flats as slightly longer versions of the FNA in 1942, as class F37.  The removable flooring and structural cross-members remained.

 

During 1950-53, 31 FN and FNA were rebuilt as 14 F37A (the remainder scrapped or held in reserve for conversion to F37B).  They also had floors atop structural members crossing the well.

 

The F37B were converted between 1948 and 1952, from original FN, with newer ends (longer) to accommodate their new brake gear at both ends of the car.  They were well hole flats, not provided floors, but with structural members on either end of the pocket.  See photos.

 

Semantic, no doubt, but interesting to some of us that find them fascinating.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 1:36 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Schuyler;

 

I don’t read that from either ORER or pic.  It has a wood floor, something you don’t generally have in a well HOLE flat, which has no cross-members beneath the “hole”, which this car has no evidence of.  No shadows beneath the car, either, which you usually see on well hole cars.

 

This looks to me to be a conversion of a “standard” flat car, to one with a shallow well, in which the cross-members/bearers have been replaced in the well, by I-beams either welded, bolted, or riveted (I cannot see), to the bottom of the side sill, and reinforced beneath, for support of the five replacements.  Removable floor supports generally have evidence of them in the form of brackets or additional reinforcements into which bolts are inserted, which do not appear here.

 

I pondered whether this might be a “sectional” well hole flat like PRR’s F49’s, but nothing appears different around a potential removable “section” that comes out to allow a further drop through the floor, like the excellent photo on the cover of the PRRT&HS flat car book.

 

All that being said, I remain open to convincing!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 12:57 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Elden, that is DEFINITELY a well-hole flat.  You can see in the panel where the LD LMT is shown that the bottom of the “pipe fitting” is below the deck.  And all that bracing, the timbers and the tie rods, are clearly temporary.

 

Schuyler

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 10:50 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Bob, all;

 

These GN cars are very interesting.  I know next to nothing about them, except what I can glean from photos.  I believe it is a well flat, not a well HOLE flat, since it does not look like the floor supports are removable.  I have wondered what GN needed these cars for, since it is usually an on-line customer that needed them.  These shipments were just lucrative enough that RRs could be convinced the roster them, otherwise….not.

 

The side members are surprisingly slender for a more typical well flat, which generally had deep side sills, but there is that u/f, which indicates the well is not that deep….

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2020 1:47 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

A photo from the Wisconsin Historical Society:

BlockedBlockedBlockedhttps://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM49938

Appears to be a well hole flat car.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Image of string of boxcars Chicago IL 1952

mopacfirst
 

What impresses me, coming from a place that has no vertical dimension to speak of, is how Lake Shore Drive was elevated over all that railroad scenery and now, when you approach that area from the west at the current street level, how far down it all is.

To have at least a mention of railroads in this post, I will mention that I first went to Chicago for a railfan visit from Wichita in the spring of 1970, the same week the CZ came off.

Ron Merrick


Re: Image of string of boxcars Chicago IL 1952

Rich C
 

Fantastic shots, Jim
Rich Christie

On Tuesday, July 28, 2020, 05:25:34 PM CDT, np328 <jcdworkingonthenp@...> wrote:


Here is a link to the Chicago Past website, I know I have posted this prior however it has some go railroad photos buried within and here some good color of the Pabst sign and railroad cars. 
Many Jack Delano photos, again discussed here prior. https://chicagopast.com/tagged/Illinois-Central-Railroad

My father who lived for many years in Chicago often had comments that echoed Michael's when we went down into the loop area as a family on short vacations and he revisited old haunts.   

I am always amazed at all the trackage on the north side of the river that served the Merchandise Mart, and extended out to the Navy Pier at one time in earlier years top of this photo
http://collections.carli.illinois.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/uic_caps/id/105                                                       Jim Dick  St. Paul, MN   


Re: Image of string of boxcars Chicago IL 1952

Dennis Storzek
 

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 03:25 PM, np328 wrote:
http://collections.carli.illinois.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/uic_caps/id/105
I've lived in the Chicago area all my life, grew up in the city. IIRC the area with the IC yard and freight house was known as South Water Street Market, while the area north of the river that the C&NW served was the North Water Street Market. North Water St. still survives, it is the street that runs between Ogden Slip (at the extreme north edge of the photo on the right side) and the river, but South Water St. is long gone.

Dennis Storzek


Re: SLSX stock cars and NISX confirmation

Peter Ness
 

Thanks for the information and photo, Rich! I think it’s already been demonstrated conclusively that NISX cars are too far in the future for me.

 

Stay healthy,

Peter Ness

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rich Yoder
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 9:38 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] SLSX stock cars and NISX confirmation

 

Hi Peter,

It’s not a former Mather car. The structural members are too heavy. Mather didn’t use traditional Railroad shapes when it came to building their cars. And it doesn’t have the Mather Patented roof which had a 6” Overhang.  

I attached a  Mather single deck Stock car photo of car NIX Number 479  taken after 1959.

Sincerely,

Rich Yoder

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Peter Ness
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 8:44 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] SLSX stock cars and NISX confirmation

 

Hi Doug,

 

Thanks very much. Attached my photo of SLSX 71548, which I am fairly certain is double deck with only two doors.  Is it possible the 71000-series contained both 2- and 4-door versions? Is it possible to identify if this is a Mather stock car?

 

The photo I have of NISX 3132 is undated, but definitely a 40-foot car and painted green.  Unlike the reporting marks, the letterboard on the car side seems to read “NTX” or ”NITX” with some small lettering underneath. From previous STMFC messages, it would appear green cars were leased to NYC.

 

I don’t know much about stock cars, and maybe the answer to this is in the archives; While Mathers (later North American) leased the cars, I believe many were painted in the lessee scheme? So, if there are no NISX reporting marks in say, a 1960 ORER (which would list many cars rostered in 1959) how would I go about learning the predecessor lessee of NISX cars? What I am trying to resolve: if NISX 3132 is not appropriate for 1959, who was it leased to and what were the reporting marks and number (or number series) before it was assigned as NISX 3132?

 

Stay healthy,

Peter


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Re: Image of string of boxcars Chicago IL 1952

np328
 

Here is a link to the Chicago Past website, I know I have posted this prior however it has some go railroad photos buried within and here some good color of the Pabst sign and railroad cars. 
Many Jack Delano photos, again discussed here prior. https://chicagopast.com/tagged/Illinois-Central-Railroad

My father who lived for many years in Chicago often had comments that echoed Michael's when we went down into the loop area as a family on short vacations and he revisited old haunts.   

I am always amazed at all the trackage on the north side of the river that served the Merchandise Mart, and extended out to the Navy Pier at one time in earlier years top of this photo
http://collections.carli.illinois.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/uic_caps/id/105                                                       Jim Dick  St. Paul, MN   


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

Richard Townsend
 

According to the CBC the two terms are synonymous.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: mopacfirst <ron.merrick@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Jul 28, 2020 1:37 pm
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

I too think it's a well flat (one which has a portion of the floor very close to the rail, compared to the rest of the floor) as opposed to a well hole flat (which seems to me one that has no floor at all in the well, rather having only some structural members that are either fixed or removable in the well area).  Perhaps these two definitions don't really have a clear distinction, in the sense that if the floor is removable, then a well flat becomes a well hole flat.

The evidence for this is that I think I can see the back side of the well sideplates, above the three transverse beams that support (something -- the floor, if it exists) and toward either end of the car from the outboard-most transverse beams.  These transverse beams appear to pass completely across the car as if they are supported symmetrically and identically on the opposite side of the car.  The car also appears to have a floor in the well, as mentioned, because there is only darkness on the track underneath the well.  Whether the floor could be removable or not, that is probably not able to be determined from this photo.  I would further say that this load, whatever it is, could be equally well supported by a floor resting on the beams or on the beams themselves.  It's tied down pretty well by the round bar attached to it, with the bar's other end bent to pass through the stake pockets and (apparently) threaded so that a nut threaded onto the end of that bar bears against a piece of wood that's blocked against the underside of the stake pocket.  Notice that there are no stake pockets in the region of the well, only t-section reinforcements to maintain the structural integrity of the side.

Ron Merrick


Re: Image of string of boxcars Chicago IL 1952

Rich C
 

Michael, I agree great shots. A shame they scrapped the PBR sign. Apparently was used for the war effort. The funny part is they dismantled it after the war!

I was in Chicago last year for a Free-mo show and got to see another icon, the Morton Salt drying shed?. I understand that is kind of a landmark now.

Rich Christie

On Tuesday, July 28, 2020, 12:28:27 PM CDT, Michael Gross <actormichaelgross@...> wrote:


Agree with Dennis Storzek.

I grew up in Chicago and loved the views of the yards from Grant Park before all the air rights were sold to real estate developers.  Also loved seeing the huge, iconic Pabst Blue Ribbon sign.
--
Michael Gross
Pasadena, CA


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

mopacfirst
 

I too think it's a well flat (one which has a portion of the floor very close to the rail, compared to the rest of the floor) as opposed to a well hole flat (which seems to me one that has no floor at all in the well, rather having only some structural members that are either fixed or removable in the well area).  Perhaps these two definitions don't really have a clear distinction, in the sense that if the floor is removable, then a well flat becomes a well hole flat.

The evidence for this is that I think I can see the back side of the well sideplates, above the three transverse beams that support (something -- the floor, if it exists) and toward either end of the car from the outboard-most transverse beams.  These transverse beams appear to pass completely across the car as if they are supported symmetrically and identically on the opposite side of the car.  The car also appears to have a floor in the well, as mentioned, because there is only darkness on the track underneath the well.  Whether the floor could be removable or not, that is probably not able to be determined from this photo.  I would further say that this load, whatever it is, could be equally well supported by a floor resting on the beams or on the beams themselves.  It's tied down pretty well by the round bar attached to it, with the bar's other end bent to pass through the stake pockets and (apparently) threaded so that a nut threaded onto the end of that bar bears against a piece of wood that's blocked against the underside of the stake pocket.  Notice that there are no stake pockets in the region of the well, only t-section reinforcements to maintain the structural integrity of the side.

Ron Merrick


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

Charlie Vlk
 

Perhaps I misread that somebody was making a distinction between a flat with a well with a permanent floor and one with a well hole without a floor which inferred special sides that could support a load whether or not it required structural (removeable or custom) stringers of any kind.

Charlie Vlk

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 12:53 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Charlie, you write:

As there is a wood floor and no mention is made of removable structural members it can be assumed they are not open well cars.

 

“Removable structure” isn’t required for a car to be a well hole flat.  How can you square that with the description you gave, which includes:

“Dimensions of well in cars numbered 60013 and 60031 are as follows:

Length 20 ft. 6 ½ in., width 6 ft. 2 ½ in . . .”

The description SAYS it’s a well hole flat?

 

Elden says he’s willing to be convinced.  Seems to me you’ve provided the proof, yet you say it’s not.


?????????

 

Schuyler

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Charlie Vlk
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 1:45 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

All-

According to the Westerfield 1955 ORER disc, there are two such cars, GN 60013 and 60031 (must have run out of decal numbers!!).

Note N states “Dimensions of well in cars numbered 60013 and 60031 are as follows:

Length 20 ft. 6 ½ in., width 6 ft. 2 ½ in.  These cars are equipped with wood loading floors and have 2 four-wheel trucks.  Spacing between truck centers 32 ft. 8 in.; between axles 5 ft. 6 in.  Total wheel base 38 ft. 2 in.”

As there is a wood floor and no mention is made of removable structural members it can be assumed they are not open well cars.

Charlie Vlk

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 11:57 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Elden, that is DEFINITELY a well-hole flat.  You can see in the panel where the LD LMT is shown that the bottom of the “pipe fitting” is below the deck.  And all that bracing, the timbers and the tie rods, are clearly temporary.

 

Schuyler

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 10:50 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Bob, all;

 

These GN cars are very interesting.  I know next to nothing about them, except what I can glean from photos.  I believe it is a well flat, not a well HOLE flat, since it does not look like the floor supports are removable.  I have wondered what GN needed these cars for, since it is usually an on-line customer that needed them.  These shipments were just lucrative enough that RRs could be convinced the roster them, otherwise….not.

 

The side members are surprisingly slender for a more typical well flat, which generally had deep side sills, but there is that u/f, which indicates the well is not that deep….

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2020 1:47 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

A photo from the Wisconsin Historical Society:

Blockedhttps://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM49938

Appears to be a well hole flat car.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: Refrigerator Load In Cincinnati Northern Boxcar S-3359 (1928)

lrkdbn
 

On the NYC, "S" denoted two things: It meant a "System" car that was "at home" on any NYC line, and it also
(usually) meant a car having the highest allowable amount for repairs; thus usually the newest and best cars.
As I recall this was used from about 1923 to the early 30's. Other such groupings were a letter "A" below the NYC oval(which was the intermediate valuation) , and no symbol at all, which was the lowest valuation of car .As always in the railroad business there were inconsistencies and exceptions.
Larry King


Re: Photo: Log On Flat Car (Undated)

lrkdbn
 

I think that is an SP Harriman design flat car. As to the switch, I have heard of No.3 switches being used
in the old days-like the DL&W circular freight house and yard on the waterfront in New Jersey.
Larry King


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Charlie, you write:

As there is a wood floor and no mention is made of removable structural members it can be assumed they are not open well cars.

 

“Removable structure” isn’t required for a car to be a well hole flat.  How can you square that with the description you gave, which includes:

“Dimensions of well in cars numbered 60013 and 60031 are as follows:

Length 20 ft. 6 ½ in., width 6 ft. 2 ½ in . . .”

The description SAYS it’s a well hole flat?

 

Elden says he’s willing to be convinced.  Seems to me you’ve provided the proof, yet you say it’s not.


?????????

 

Schuyler

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Charlie Vlk
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 1:45 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

All-

According to the Westerfield 1955 ORER disc, there are two such cars, GN 60013 and 60031 (must have run out of decal numbers!!).

Note N states “Dimensions of well in cars numbered 60013 and 60031 are as follows:

Length 20 ft. 6 ½ in., width 6 ft. 2 ½ in.  These cars are equipped with wood loading floors and have 2 four-wheel trucks.  Spacing between truck centers 32 ft. 8 in.; between axles 5 ft. 6 in.  Total wheel base 38 ft. 2 in.”

As there is a wood floor and no mention is made of removable structural members it can be assumed they are not open well cars.

Charlie Vlk

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 11:57 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Elden, that is DEFINITELY a well-hole flat.  You can see in the panel where the LD LMT is shown that the bottom of the “pipe fitting” is below the deck.  And all that bracing, the timbers and the tie rods, are clearly temporary.

 

Schuyler

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 10:50 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Bob, all;

 

These GN cars are very interesting.  I know next to nothing about them, except what I can glean from photos.  I believe it is a well flat, not a well HOLE flat, since it does not look like the floor supports are removable.  I have wondered what GN needed these cars for, since it is usually an on-line customer that needed them.  These shipments were just lucrative enough that RRs could be convinced the roster them, otherwise….not.

 

The side members are surprisingly slender for a more typical well flat, which generally had deep side sills, but there is that u/f, which indicates the well is not that deep….

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2020 1:47 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

 

Photo: Seamless Pipe Fitting Load On GN Flat Car 60031 (1956)

A photo from the Wisconsin Historical Society:

Blockedhttps://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Image/IM49938

Appears to be a well hole flat car.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA