Date   

Re: Proto 2000 Stock Car

Richard Wilkens
 

I have attached a photo showing a New York Central stock car as well as a couple Northern Pacific, and at least one Great Northern, can't identify the other cars. This is at Wishram, Washington on the Spokane, Portland & Seattle and was taken around 1948. The stock pens at Wishram were around the curve in the background on the right hand side. 

Rich Wilkens


Re: Photo: GATX 18321/Sunburst Refining (Undated)

Jim Gates
 

Since the connections are on the bottom of the cars, it would appear to be UNloading apparatus.

Jim Gates

On Sunday, September 20, 2020, 10:57:34 AM CDT, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:


Photo: GATX 18321/Sunburst Refining (Undated)

A photo from the New York Public Library:

https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/510d47d9-b610-a3d9-e040-e00a18064a99

This image can be enlarged.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: T&P Gondola 17695 (1938)

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Friends,

O.K. Clumsy fingers. What I wanted to say was that these are early Sinclair cars (before the giant "Sinclair" was plastered down the cars' sides). It should say "Sinclair Oils" on their sides. "Sinclair" appears to have been airbrushed from the cars closest to the camera, leaving only "Oils". 

That twin compartment tank is very interesting. No dome platforms.

Thanks for the find Bob. I'm married to a Sinclair descendant, and my layout features a Sinclair dealer. As the Ferengi rules of acquisition say, "It never hurts to suck up to the boss."

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sun, Sep 20, 2020 at 12:03 PM Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Photo: T&P Gondola 17695 (1938)

A photo from the New York Public Library:

https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/59bab700-bf76-0136-e236-0ef34241574b

This image can be enlarged.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: Many Tanks Cars (Undated)

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Friends,

SDRX is the reporting mark used by Sinclair. This photo is obviously before the giant silver "Sinclair" was spelled out across the car sides. T

On Sun, Sep 20, 2020 at 11:58 AM Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Photo: Many Tanks Cars (Undated)

A photo from the New York Public Library:

https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/510d47d9-ab85-a3d9-e040-e00a18064a99

This image can be enlarged.

Note two compartment tank car in foreground with single rivet course construction.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: Many Tanks Cars (Undated)

Tony Thompson
 

Bob Chaparro wrote:

Photo: Many Tanks Cars (Undated)
A photo from the New York Public Library:

   Good illustration of why it's hard to model a refinery realistically.  <g>

Tony Thompson




Re: truck screws for brass models

Tony Thompson
 

Before anyone cringes about my "getting rid of" the brass trucks on my brass models, rest assured they are safely stashed in the original boxes. I guess I unknowingly am making it easier for those handling my estate.
Same here. I usually even put the shouldered screws and springs with the trucks.

Tony Thompson
tony@signaturepress.com


Re: Proto 2000 Stock Car

Tony Thompson
 

Garth Groff wrote:

 I know PK2 offered a B&O car in their first run (I have one I've considered relettering), and their early cars were supposedly very accurate. 

    The original P2k releases were ALL based on Richard Hendrickson's recommendations. In their last years, a few foobles crept in, and with Walthers -- well. But you can trust the originals.

Tony Thompson




Re: Proto 2000 Stock Car

Bruce Smith
 

A couple of additional notes. 

1) Remember that stock cars carried more than stock, so their appearance could be to carry a different cargo.

2) Not all stock movements were to slaughter. There were large movements of stock from Texas to pastures in Pennsylvania (King Ranch holdings). In addition, stock cars were used to move carloads of breeding stock, and to move animals such as horses, and rodeo stock.

3) There are significant numbers of photos of western stock cars on the PRR. While these cars would have been a minority, their presence is obvious. This may relate to times of the year when the PRR's fleet was unable to cope (much like the grain rush), or it may simply relate to local availability of cars (in other words, the PRR may have 1000 cars, but there are only 10 PRR cars in the yard and they need to ship 12 carloads. I have a feeling this happened fairly often.

Regards,
Bruce 
Bruce Smith
Auburn, Al


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Ray Carson via groups.io <PrewarUPModeler@...>
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2020 1:38 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Proto 2000 Stock Car
 

Hello,

I'm curious about something about the Proto 2000 stock car that I'm interested in buying from my LHS.

So most of the models seem to be painted and modeled after WWII. What modifications can I make to one to fit my year of 1939? Would they more than likely have K brakes at this time?

I'm not sure what railroads owned these stock cars, I've seen NP owned a few. What possible railroads could I fit this in?

Finally more of a general but maybe dumb question, would a stock car from let's say New York Central end up in a western state like Utah? It seems stock cars would've stayed on their own railroads but I could be wrong.

Thanks, Ray


Re: Proto 2000 Stock Car

Steve SANDIFER
 

On the Santa Fe, the GENERAL practice at feeding stations was to send foreign cars home empty and move the stock to Santa Fe cars if empty cars were available. I don’t think I have seen any examples of stock being moved from one foreign road car to another foreign road car. Santa Fe was a big railroad with lots of miles of track and the largest number of stock cars. A smaller railroad with fewer cars might not have the luxury of available empty home road cars for such.

If stock arrived in a Santa Fe car, GENERALLY the animals in each deck of the car were moved to their own pen and then reloaded back into the same deck of the same car in which they arrived. The bedding would be checked and any bad messes cleaned up, but otherwise the same bedding was used for the next leg of the journey.

Major stock yard would be a different situation. When animals arrived at a Feed-Water-Rest station, they were expected to leave in 24 hours unless the owner wanted them to stay for fattening. When animals arrived at a major stock yard like Kansas City, St. Joseph, or St. Louis, that was the end of the trip.  The cars were then sent home for cleaning. However, roughly 20% or so of the cattle that arrived at a major stock yard left there for somewhere else. Maybe they were being shipped east to processors on the east coast. Maybe they were being sold to someone in the west to build a new herd, for a season of finishing, or to change the blood line in existing herds. Those would be loaded into newly bedded clean cars. That is why the NYC, PRR, and B&O had over 1000 stock cars to move animals from the Mississippi River auctions to the east coast markets. I would not expect to see many UP or ATSF stock cars east of the Mississippi though there are exceptions.

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of akerboomk
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2020 8:56 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Proto 2000 Stock Car

 

Never thought about this before…

 

As the livestock need to be rested/watered/fed every so often, would (assuming the stock cars were off the “home” road) the road “resting” the livestock:

  • Take the opportunity to return the stock cars (to reduce per-diem), and use “home road” (or “in direction of travel”) stock cars to forward the livestock on?
  • Just leave the cars there for “X” hours, and re-load them?
  • Something else?
  • All of the above, depending on circumstances?

 

When going from “the West” to the East coast, would the stock tend to be all unloaded in the major stock yards (Chicago, St. Louis, wherever) for a time, then get re-loaded onto different cars for the trip East?

 

Ken


--
Ken Akerboom


Photo: T&P Gondola 17695 (1938)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: T&P Gondola 17695 (1938)

A photo from the New York Public Library:

https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/59bab700-bf76-0136-e236-0ef34241574b

This image can be enlarged.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Photo: Many Tanks Cars (Undated)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Many Tanks Cars (Undated)

A photo from the New York Public Library:

https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/510d47d9-ab85-a3d9-e040-e00a18064a99

This image can be enlarged.

Note two compartment tank car in foreground with single rivet course construction.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Photo: GATX 18321/Sunburst Refining (Undated)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: GATX 18321/Sunburst Refining (Undated)

A photo from the New York Public Library:

https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/510d47d9-b610-a3d9-e040-e00a18064a99

This image can be enlarged.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Proto 2000 Stock Car

Bob Chaparro
 

RE: Switching Livestock Cars
It is my understanding that livestock unloaded for feed/water/rest were to be returned to the same car from which they were unloaded. This was a disease control measure.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: truck screws for brass models

Mont Switzer
 

Tony,

Before anyone cringes about my "getting rid of" the brass trucks on my brass models, rest assured they are safely stashed in the original boxes. I guess I unknowingly am making it easier for those handling my estate.

Yep, I've re-trucked a few styrene models also, especially those with mounting "pins." I usually have to sleve those large holes with styrene tube stock, then drill and tap for 2-56 mounting screws.

Mont Switzer

________________________________________
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] on behalf of Tony Thompson [tony@signaturepress.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2020 8:25 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] truck screws for brass models

Mont Switzer wrote:

I guess I did the same with my brass caboose fleet only I am probably a bit more "ham handed" in how I accomplished this.
First, I got rid of the brass trucks. I was able to find matching styrene trucks for each model, leaf springs where required and all. I equipped them with REBOXX wheel sets.
I would guess a solid majority of my brass freight cars have been re-trucked -- a few of my commercial styrene cars also . . . not mentioning names.

I drilled and threaded the truck mounting holes for 2-56 screws and added a washer if needed.
As I mentioned, I have resorted to this on occasion too. Wish the brass importers cared more about us operators.

Tony Thompson
tony@signaturepress.com


Re: Proto 2000 Stock Car

akerboomk
 

Never thought about this before…

 

As the livestock need to be rested/watered/fed every so often, would (assuming the stock cars were off the “home” road) the road “resting” the livestock:

-       Take the opportunity to return the stock cars (to reduce per-diem), and use “home road” (or “in direction of travel”) stock cars to forward the livestock on?

-       Just leave the cars there for “X” hours, and re-load them?

-       Something else?

-       All of the above, depending on circumstances?

 

When going from “the West” to the East coast, would the stock tend to be all unloaded in the major stock yards (Chicago, St. Louis, wherever) for a time, then get re-loaded onto different cars for the trip East?

 

Ken


--
Ken Akerboom


Re: Proto 2000 Stock Car

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Ray and Friends,

I forgot to mention that RAILMODEL JOURNAL had articles on the Mather stock cars in their February, May and November 1997 issues. All were written by Richard Hendrickson, and so were carefully researched.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sun, Sep 20, 2020 at 5:54 AM Garth Groff and Sally Sanford via groups.io <mallardlodge1000=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Ray,

The Proto 2000 car is a Mather design, and most of these were leased out by Mather to various railroads, sometimes on a long term basis. NP and GN both used Mather stock cars besides their own designs. I know PK2 offered a B&O car in their first run (I have one I've considered relettering), and their early cars were supposedly very accurate. Also offered were cars lettered for GSX, Gotham Livestock Express, which IIRC was Mather's short-term lease reporting mark. Yes, it would be possible to see a NYC stock car in Utah, but that would be very rare. Better to stick with what is more common or plausible.

Since AB brakes were not mandated until the early 1950s, yes, K-brakes are appropriate. That is not to say the Mather company wasn't already fitting their cars with AB brakes by 1939, but they were a pretty cheap outfit and kept their cars simple. You need to check photos.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sun, Sep 20, 2020 at 2:38 AM Ray Carson via groups.io <PrewarUPModeler=protonmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hello,

I'm curious about something about the Proto 2000 stock car that I'm interested in buying from my LHS.

So most of the models seem to be painted and modeled after WWII. What modifications can I make to one to fit my year of 1939? Would they more than likely have K brakes at this time?

I'm not sure what railroads owned these stock cars, I've seen NP owned a few. What possible railroads could I fit this in?

Finally more of a general but maybe dumb question, would a stock car from let's say New York Central end up in a western state like Utah? It seems stock cars would've stayed on their own railroads but I could be wrong.

Thanks, Ray


Re: Proto 2000 Stock Car

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Ray,

The Proto 2000 car is a Mather design, and most of these were leased out by Mather to various railroads, sometimes on a long term basis. NP and GN both used Mather stock cars besides their own designs. I know PK2 offered a B&O car in their first run (I have one I've considered relettering), and their early cars were supposedly very accurate. Also offered were cars lettered for GSX, Gotham Livestock Express, which IIRC was Mather's short-term lease reporting mark. Yes, it would be possible to see a NYC stock car in Utah, but that would be very rare. Better to stick with what is more common or plausible.

Since AB brakes were not mandated until the early 1950s, yes, K-brakes are appropriate. That is not to say the Mather company wasn't already fitting their cars with AB brakes by 1939, but they were a pretty cheap outfit and kept their cars simple. You need to check photos.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sun, Sep 20, 2020 at 2:38 AM Ray Carson via groups.io <PrewarUPModeler=protonmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hello,

I'm curious about something about the Proto 2000 stock car that I'm interested in buying from my LHS.

So most of the models seem to be painted and modeled after WWII. What modifications can I make to one to fit my year of 1939? Would they more than likely have K brakes at this time?

I'm not sure what railroads owned these stock cars, I've seen NP owned a few. What possible railroads could I fit this in?

Finally more of a general but maybe dumb question, would a stock car from let's say New York Central end up in a western state like Utah? It seems stock cars would've stayed on their own railroads but I could be wrong.

Thanks, Ray


Proto 2000 Stock Car

Ray Carson
 

Hello,

I'm curious about something about the Proto 2000 stock car that I'm interested in buying from my LHS.

So most of the models seem to be painted and modeled after WWII. What modifications can I make to one to fit my year of 1939? Would they more than likely have K brakes at this time?

I'm not sure what railroads owned these stock cars, I've seen NP owned a few. What possible railroads could I fit this in?

Finally more of a general but maybe dumb question, would a stock car from let's say New York Central end up in a western state like Utah? It seems stock cars would've stayed on their own railroads but I could be wrong.

Thanks, Ray


Re: Photo: Wabash Mather Boxcar 19290 (1910)

lrkdbn
 

Dear group
Attached please find the picture I referred to in my previous post- A Pere Marquette all wood single sheathed
auto/box car, perhaps a converted stock car?
Larry King


Accurail 4300 series - options

Robert kirkham
 

I’ll post some when I make some more progress.  At this point, in addition to a bunch of Canadian cars, I’m thinking I will look at a couple of kit bashes looking at the DMIT, MKT, MP and Frisco and CB&Q/C&S cars.    

I’ve picked up some photos off the internet, but am not yet clear on appropriate number series for each car for my 1946 modelling era. Also need to make a list of detail elements to sort out.  With each, need to figure out decals too.

The MKT car will need a metal panel at the top of the car sides.  Not sure if these were all converted from K to AB brakes in 1946.  96077 in 1940 reweigh is equipped with AB brakes.  There is an end view of 76678 in the Delano photos in the Library of Congress (thinking one of the photos in Chicago) that has me intrigued - you can see the stem winder brake wheel at the far end of the roof.  I also have a photo of 77780.  All the other photos show cars between 95000 - 96656.   Modelling details also include a flat diagonal brace at the top of each end panel on the sides.  Once I have the number series sorted, these looks reasonably straightforward, but I think I am seeing different roof variants to be careful about.  Inside height appears (in hard to read photos) to be 9’ 1”.  Given there is a Speedwitch kit for at least some of these cars, I find this project less appealing.

The MP cars have radial roofs as Charlie Duckworth noted.  They also have the steel panel at the top of the car sides and the diagonal braces atop each end panel on the sides.  Have not checked inside height yet.  And I see variations in the side bracing top and diagonal that will need more careful thought.  Car numbers 93656 (1936 reweigh date, K brakes), 41293 (’45 re weigh, AB brakes), 90000 ('40s reweigh, AB brakes), 90281 ('55 re-weigh, AB brakes).  3 different doors.

DMIR cars are in the 33XX series, so far as I can tell so far.  Looking for early to mid 40’s era photos before I go very far.  Looks like the easiest project, except the Accurail wood doors need a replacement.

The SLSF cars look (to me) like the roof/roof attachment is different from the Accurail car.  I cannot see the top steel plate below the roof line on those cars.  And I think I see a curved line, so another radial design?  So that will require some more thought.  

The CB&Q cars are easier to find on line photos for, but I think I see a number of different car body heights so will need to sort through that.  In photos where you can see the ends, some are dreadnaught ends, so would involve even more effort.  But the 15500-16499 series look like the right project.   I note the roof and top side plate treatment look different from the Accurail car, so that will take some thought.  I also note a bunch of the cars have narrower sheathing boards than the Accurail kits.

So - more research ahead, but at minimum a good stand in can be created for some of these cars by replacing ladders with grab irons, adding some top diagonal straps at the end panels, etc.

Rob

 
On Sep 19, 2020, at 6:48 PM, Ray Carson via groups.io <PrewarUPModeler@...> wrote:

I also have Accurail 4300 series that I'm going to turn into a CB&Q prototype. I've been slowly removing molded-on grabs and other details that don't fit with the prototype.

I hope to see your own builds in the future for inspiration in my builds.

-Ray


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