Date   

Insulated Boxcars v. Bonkerless Reefers

Bill Parks
 

I'm trying to determine the differences between insulated boxcars (AAR designation XI) and bunklerless refrigerator cars (RB or RBL), and don't see any real difference in design or use (although the ORER does state that RBL/RB MAY have vents - but I've never seen any pictures of any).  As best as I can tell, if the car was owned by a railroad, they would classify it as XI, and the private car owners (FGE, PFE, etc.) would classify them as RB/RBL.

Is that correct, or is there more to it?

Thanks
--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida


Re: ATSF in California

Paul Doggett
 

I think they borrowed whatever they could, I have a UP with 2 bay hoppers in a beet train.
Paul Doggett 


On 24 Oct 2020, at 18:57, Richard Townsend via groups.io <richtownsend@...> wrote:

I don’t know about SP beet trains, but I have seen photos of UP and even Chicago & Alton hoppers in Colorado & Southern beet trains.


On Oct 24, 2020, at 10:11 AM, Paul Doggett via groups.io <paul.doggett2472@...> wrote:

RJ 

I have never seen a photo of one mine will be carrying scrap I think or timber .

Paul Doggett


On 24 Oct 2020, at 17:48, radiodial868 <radiodial57@...> wrote:

Looks like SP had the monopoly on California sugarbeets, and the Santa Fe moved Colorado beets.
So Paul, I'm guessing the next question you ask is, "would an AT&SF gondola ever end up in a consist of Southern Pacific beet gondolas?"
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Re: ATSF in California

Richard Townsend
 

I don’t know about SP beet trains, but I have seen photos of UP and even Chicago & Alton hoppers in Colorado & Southern beet trains.


On Oct 24, 2020, at 10:11 AM, Paul Doggett via groups.io <paul.doggett2472@...> wrote:

RJ 

I have never seen a photo of one mine will be carrying scrap I think or timber .

Paul Doggett


On 24 Oct 2020, at 17:48, radiodial868 <radiodial57@...> wrote:

Looks like SP had the monopoly on California sugarbeets, and the Santa Fe moved Colorado beets.
So Paul, I'm guessing the next question you ask is, "would an AT&SF gondola ever end up in a consist of Southern Pacific beet gondolas?"
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Re: Identity Of This Car? (Undated)

John Grube
 

I have seen this photo before, both in the CERA Bulletin and many years ago at TMER&L railfan slideshows. I probably should have paid more attention to the comments then. If I remember correctly, the consensus of opinion is that this truck is the cut-down and modified remains of a 1924 Yellow Z-type double deck bus, tried by TMER&L on their "high-class" Green Bus routes in the 1920's. I have attached a photo of a Chicago bus of similar year and model for comparison of the details.


Re: ATSF in California

Paul Doggett
 

RJ 

I have never seen a photo of one mine will be carrying scrap I think or timber .

Paul Doggett


On 24 Oct 2020, at 17:48, radiodial868 <radiodial57@...> wrote:

Looks like SP had the monopoly on California sugarbeets, and the Santa Fe moved Colorado beets.
So Paul, I'm guessing the next question you ask is, "would an AT&SF gondola ever end up in a consist of Southern Pacific beet gondolas?"
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Re: ATSF in California

radiodial868
 

Looks like SP had the monopoly on California sugarbeets, and the Santa Fe moved Colorado beets.
So Paul, I'm guessing the next question you ask is, "would an AT&SF gondola ever end up in a consist of Southern Pacific beet gondolas?"
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Re: [Proto-Layouts] Grand ol' RPM

Eric Hansmann
 

Clark,

 

You are a week ahead of schedule! The 2020 event was set for next weekend. It was cancelled in March. Details were posted on the website and in messages to several discussion groups.

http://www.rpmconference.com/

 

Frank found a nice venue on the Northern Illinois University Naperville Campus that we hope to use in 2021. It’s about three miles from the Sheraton.

 

Since the pandemic is surging in Illinois at the moment, the event would have been cancelled anyway. As noted on the RCW blog and website, Frank had tested positive for the virus. He was sick for almost a week but seems to have recovered. He shared ideas for upcoming RCW kits, so he’s nearly back in the pink.

 

I’m looking forward to seeing several of you on the Hindsight 20.20 4.0 V-RPM event in just a few minutes.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

From: Proto-Layouts@groups.io <Proto-Layouts@groups.io> On Behalf Of Clark Propst
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2020 9:10 AM
To: Proto-Layouts@groups.io
Subject: [Proto-Layouts] Grand ol' RPM

 

It’s Naperville time!.....I remember Mike Skibbe saying he was having trouble finding a location being the current hotel wasn’t interested in us anymore. The mini meet Frank had arranged is canceled I’m sure? Is there any plans to continue the “Granddaddy” RPM maybe next year? The VRPM today is just not the same.

Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: Cotton Belt dbl door boxcar

Guy Wilber
 

Ed Hawkins wrote:

“The SSW diagram for 46000-46199 denotes the following info.

3. Roof raised & steel roof applied by SSW 1939

The cars were equipped with Evans Auto~Loaders, Type “E”, 8 tubes, coinciding with SSW raising the roofs. Murphy offered the extensions (as shown in photos). Those gussets along the car line are typical of the extensions.

“11. Nailable Steel Floor the width of the doorway”

Added to many auto cars equipped with loaders to alleviate wear on the floor where autos and light trucks were maneuvered into position with the use of floor jacks and dollies.

“The Murphy roof is interesting as the end sheets closest to the ends are depressed - what appears to be several inches lower than the 10 intermediate roof sheets.”

Obviously done to lower the latitudinal running boards for unrestricted clearance.

“This particular car was built 4-24. Stencils do not specify a rebuild date. It’s a fresh repainted car 5-20-54 at the Cotton Belt Pine Bluff car shops.”

Technically; for accounting purposes, sealing a door and removal of the loaders did not constitute a “Rebuild”. The earlier work surely would have been the governing date as “rebuilt” if the cars were also equipped with “AB” brakes and AAR approved appliances (at the time).

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


Grand ol' RPM

Clark Propst
 

It’s Naperville time!.....I remember Mike Skibbe saying he was having trouble finding a location being the current hotel wasn’t interested in us anymore. The mini meet Frank had arranged is canceled I’m sure? Is there any plans to continue the “Granddaddy” RPM maybe next year? The VRPM today is just not the same.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: ATSF in California

Paul Doggett
 

Bruce 

Thank you very much and please thank Bruce for me as well.

Paul 


On 24 Oct 2020, at 00:48, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:



Bruce Morden of Carpinteria, CA, commented:

"By 1950 many of the California Sugar Beet facilities had closed. 

Still open in the 1950's:

Alvarado (closed 1968)

Betteravia (1994)

Brawley (still open)

Clarksburg (closed 1993)

Dyer [Santa Ana]  (closed 1979)

Hamilton City (closed 1996)

Manteca (closed 1996)

Mendota (closed 2008)

Oxnard (closed 1958)

Spreckels (closed 1981)

Sugar Field [Woodland] (closed 2000)

Tracy (closed 2000)

All were served exclusively by the Southern Pacific except Clarksburg which was served by the Sacramento Northern/Western Pacific."

Over the years Bruce has been studying sugar beet operations in California. Here is a link to his Southern Pacific's Santa Barbara Subdivision blog:

http://spsbsub.blogspot.com/

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Identity Of This Car? (Undated)

Dennis Storzek
 

On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 11:05 AM, Claus Schlund \(HGM\) wrote:
I notice the container is numbered C-40. Does that mean there is a C-1 thru C-39 also?
Very likely so. When we were moving wood working machinery out of the former TM Cold Spring Shop in Milwaukee in the seventies (then being used as the main bus shops of the Transport Co.) there were several containers being used as sheds on the property. I've since seen one on the ground at the East Troy (WI) Trolley Museum, and I wouldn't doubt that IRM has acquired one or more to go with the car. In case anyone was wondering, the light colored container is silver (aluminium) with red lettering shaded in black. Now the bad news... because this was trolley equipment, it never went off the property, certainly not interchanged to a "steam" railroad. I suspect the containers shuttled between customers with large volume of package shipments and the system's freight houses.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Identity Of This Car? (Undated)

Horton Monroe
 

Thank you, Jack Mullen, for calling attention to the truck in this picture.  To me, even though it isn’t a "Steam Freight Car”, it is “perhaps” the most interesting part of the picture…IMHO.  Wish the make and model could be identified.  My eyes aren’t that good.  

Horton Monroe, a novice at most everything.

On Oct 23, 2020, at 1:22 PM, Jack Mullen <jack.f.mullen@...> wrote:

Spot on, except that nobody is calling the railcar a coach.
Yellow Truck and Coach is the builder of the truck. It was an offshoot if the Yellow Cab empire, and though only a minor truck maker, was a major player in the bus market, eventually becoming GM's Truck and Coach Division.

Jack Mullen


Re: ATSF in California

Bob Chaparro
 

Bruce Morden of Carpinteria, CA, commented:

"By 1950 many of the California Sugar Beet facilities had closed. 

Still open in the 1950's:

Alvarado (closed 1968)

Betteravia (1994)

Brawley (still open)

Clarksburg (closed 1993)

Dyer [Santa Ana]  (closed 1979)

Hamilton City (closed 1996)

Manteca (closed 1996)

Mendota (closed 2008)

Oxnard (closed 1958)

Spreckels (closed 1981)

Sugar Field [Woodland] (closed 2000)

Tracy (closed 2000)

All were served exclusively by the Southern Pacific except Clarksburg which was served by the Sacramento Northern/Western Pacific."

Over the years Bruce has been studying sugar beet operations in California. Here is a link to his Southern Pacific's Santa Barbara Subdivision blog:

http://spsbsub.blogspot.com/

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Cotton Belt dbl door rebuilt boxcar

O Fenton Wells
 

Do you have that roof in resin?
Fenton 


On Oct 23, 2020, at 6:20 PM, Andy Carlson <midcentury@...> wrote:


My late friend Wayne Madison made this roof pattern for the SSW rebuilt box car.

It has a lot of additional material for what I can only figure must have been part of the rebuild process. Ed mentions that the rebuilt cars preceded the roof replacement by a year, or so. So what ever roof preceded the rectangular pattern steel replacement probably was already high in height which required the extensions for the new replacement steel roof.

The roof was also widened, which in hindsight may have been a wrong interpretation. Wayne and I were not certain, but we saw that the ends needed to be wider and that modification ended up making the IMWX steel roof too narrow. The joys of working with limited photos in the pre-good-old-days. The pair of prototypes show small brackets along the edge of the raised portion of the roof. I don't remember this from the time, so maybe not all roofs were treated this way.

When modeling, we often don't know what was going on, but the idea of following what we see in the photos is maybe all which we are going to get.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

  Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

Hi Andy
The photo, when enlarged after a capture, is a bit fuzzy (!) but I’m curious about the roofs.  It appears that they wee raised above the top of the original sides.  There’s several ways to do this, but is that fact what I’m seeing?

Schuyler

 

<image001.jpg>

 

<Screen Shot 2020-10-23 at 2.59.13 PM.png>

<Screen Shot 2020-10-23 at 2.59.58 PM.png>


 

 

<Screen Shot 2020-10-23 at 2.59.13 PM.png>
<Screen Shot 2020-10-23 at 2.59.58 PM.png>
<image001.jpg>


Cotton Belt dbl door rebuilt boxcar

Andy Carlson
 

My late friend Wayne Madison made this roof pattern for the SSW rebuilt box car.

It has a lot of additional material for what I can only figure must have been part of the rebuild process. Ed mentions that the rebuilt cars preceded the roof replacement by a year, or so. So what ever roof preceded the rectangular pattern steel replacement probably was already high in height which required the extensions for the new replacement steel roof.

The roof was also widened, which in hindsight may have been a wrong interpretation. Wayne and I were not certain, but we saw that the ends needed to be wider and that modification ended up making the IMWX steel roof too narrow. The joys of working with limited photos in the pre-good-old-days. The pair of prototypes show small brackets along the edge of the raised portion of the roof. I don't remember this from the time, so maybe not all roofs were treated this way.

When modeling, we often don't know what was going on, but the idea of following what we see in the photos is maybe all which we are going to get.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

  Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

Hi Andy
The photo, when enlarged after a capture, is a bit fuzzy (!) but I’m curious about the roofs.  It appears that they wee raised above the top of the original sides.  There’s several ways to do this, but is that fact what I’m seeing?

Schuyler

  Inline image

 Inline image

Inline image

 

 


Re: Cotton Belt dbl door boxcar

James Brewer
 

Ted's article was in the August 2003 RMC, Essential Freight Cars: 5 Cotton Belt's double-sheathed boxcars.

Jim Brewer


Re: Cotton Belt dbl door boxcar

Matt Herson
 

Andy,

Here is a link to another shot showing the brake wheel end of the car.  

To see the full size photo you must join the group but it is free.

www.Railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=116700

Matt Herson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2020 5:53 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Cotton Belt dbl door boxcar

 

Hi Andy

 

The photo, when enlarged after a capture, is a bit fuzzy (!) but I’m curious about the roofs.  It appears that they wee raised above the top of the original sides.  There’s several ways to do this, but is that fact what I’m seeing?

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Andy Carlson
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2020 2:38 PM
To: STMFC E-List <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Cotton Belt dbl door boxcar

 

Hi folks-

 

Years ago, after discovering one of these Cotton Belt USRA Clone DS double door rebuilds in the Henderson box car book, I made a scale drawing. The cars seem to have been in the 46000 series of  the SSW. I have an HO model I built of this car about 23 years ago which I would like to update. I never knew what power brake brand was used. I used a Ajax back then.

 

The rebuilds besides reusing the original ends (with mods) also reused the fishbelly USRA style of underframe. With a modified rectangular panel roof and noticeable side sill mods, I think this is a fine looking rebuilt car. The pair of pre-war Youngstown doors and riveted sides work well together for coolness.

 

 

Inline image

 

I read , perhaps in the caption, that these cars after rebuilding were used for Blue Bird bus company seats and also for general service.

 

I see from this picture grabbed from Ebay that at least two methods were used in splicing the ends for increased height. My model has the center section with 3 Murphy ribs, as shown on SSW 46029 to the left.

 

Anyhow, hearing from some gifted person on what brake equipment was used is appreciated in advance.

Thanks,

-Andy Carlson

Ojai CA

 

 


Re: Cotton Belt dbl door boxcar

mel perry
 

didn't ted culotta do an article in RMC,
anout SSW extended height boxcars?
mel perry


Re: Cotton Belt dbl door boxcar

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Hi Andy

 

The photo, when enlarged after a capture, is a bit fuzzy (!) but I’m curious about the roofs.  It appears that they wee raised above the top of the original sides.  There’s several ways to do this, but is that fact what I’m seeing?

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Andy Carlson
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2020 2:38 PM
To: STMFC E-List <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Cotton Belt dbl door boxcar

 

Hi folks-

 

Years ago, after discovering one of these Cotton Belt USRA Clone DS double door rebuilds in the Henderson box car book, I made a scale drawing. The cars seem to have been in the 46000 series of  the SSW. I have an HO model I built of this car about 23 years ago which I would like to update. I never knew what power brake brand was used. I used a Ajax back then.

 

The rebuilds besides reusing the original ends (with mods) also reused the fishbelly USRA style of underframe. With a modified rectangular panel roof and noticeable side sill mods, I think this is a fine looking rebuilt car. The pair of pre-war Youngstown doors and riveted sides work well together for coolness.

 

 

Inline image

 

I read , perhaps in the caption, that these cars after rebuilding were used for Blue Bird bus company seats and also for general service.

 

I see from this picture grabbed from Ebay that at least two methods were used in splicing the ends for increased height. My model has the center section with 3 Murphy ribs, as shown on SSW 46029 to the left.

 

Anyhow, hearing from some gifted person on what brake equipment was used is appreciated in advance.

Thanks,

-Andy Carlson

Ojai CA

 

 


Re: Identity Of This Car? (Undated)

Ed Pavlovic
 

Illinois Railway Museum has one of the container boxcars in its collection and may possibly have one of the containers as well.

Ed Pavlovic

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