Date   

Re: Photo: CP Gondola 132138

Jim Gates
 


Is that an odd load, or an expedient extended side?

Jim Gates

On Thursday, November 12, 2020, 12:17:20 PM CST, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:


Photo: CP Gondola 132138

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3285536

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Car Built 1931.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: N&W B-5 Boxcar Went West

James Brewer
 

And a resin model of that "beautiful" N&W Class B-5 boxcar is available in HO scale from Yarmouth!

http://www.yarmouthmodelworks.com/index.php/ResinModelKits/Index

Jim Brewer


N&W B-5 Boxcar Went West

gary laakso
 

While it is not the same as a N&W hopper climbing the Wasatch , here is a B-5 class on the UP, behind a 2-8-0

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1946-WP-and-UP-Salt-Lake-City/i-v6C3tgZ/A 

 

you can tap on the picture to enlarge it. 

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock


Re: Photo: Missouri Pacific Gondola 23724 (Undated)

mopacfirst
 

The photo attached is of a car from the 73501-74250 series, built by Pullman and Pennsylvania Car in 1925.

Ron Merrick


Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Robert kirkham
 

Hi Bruce - yes - I recall your model era, and I’d like to see that clinic!  

I appreciate how the Delano colours are not accurate/real.  There are all kinds of biases in there.  Colour correction in photo software also seems to be of marginal help (in my limited knowledge/efforts).  There is always the risk that one’s logic becomes circular; - a much over simplified example:  “GN boxcars are this colour, therefor adjust the image to reproduce that colour”.  I’m avoiding that - using the neutrals and black and whites to help.  And green grass and green leaves can be somewhat useful.  Skies - all over the map.  There are a lot of images from back then with yellow and grey-green skies, so one can assume colour problems (and dust/smoke).  Delano has less of that though.   But I am also looking at colour movies as references - although they are also riddled with issues.  

Taking a step back: this is part of what makes this hobby fun - not only the Proto research about the various railroads and their approach, or the history of colour images and rendering in different types of film (and all the issues translating those images into my hands 75 years later)  - but then the eye and artistry to achieve appealing effects with indoor lights on (my case) HO scale models . . .   A strange kind of fun.

Rob

On Nov 12, 2020, at 11:24 AM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

Rob,

As you may remember, I model 1944, so Delano’s photos are a very important resource for me. Like Bill, I have spent some time following the works of military modelers and continue to do so to try to learn more. With respect to clinics, I presented a weathering clinic “From basics to extremes” at Prototype Rails 2018 that I am happy to share.

Some basic thoughts
1) Delano’s colors are not real. They are biased by the film used.
2) Layers, lots of layers
3) Lots of different media and approaches. Each car is a new canvas that should be approached differently (for the unique looks). However, you can and should develop a “fleet approach” for the background. For example, with some 50+ tank cars to weather, I can’t afford the time to do each one as a “work of art” and besides, that’s not what you see. So I have a “fleet” approach that will go on 80-90% of the black cars. It’s still layered, nuanced, and not always to the same extent, but it is pretty fast to do. The rest will get individual touches.

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

On Nov 12, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

Hi Bill,

Moving toward the “Delano look” seems to be a very long road for me.  I’ve been custom mixing pain for quite a while, but it is challenging to land on shades that do justice to the real thing.  And I too am borrowing from the endless Youtube content on weathering techniques and effects.  The military guys have stretched my tool box.  But I am not really content with the results I am achieving yet.  The scale effect and indoor lighting are as much of the challenge as interpreting the photos.  

My question isn’t about CB&Q colours, but just to follow up on an earlier enquiry.  I asked the other day about CB&Q paint - and was advised it was a Mineral red colour (which is, btw, helpful information as a starting point, and I appreciate it).  It was noted that there are products on the market specifically labelled for this colour.  And I can see how they are useful.   

Here’s a couple of examples of a heavily cropped Delano images that show colours I find very hard to duplicate indoors on a model.  I’d say the last photo (taking into account all the interpretation challenges inherent in the photos, etc, etc) might be approximated using, for example, the TruColor CB&Q paint as a starting point.   But the low light in that photo tends to create a colourful glow - I’m not so sure I want to model based on that.  There is a huge range between the three cars.  As many have said before, the colours tend to move toward each other, although there are few cars exactly alike.   And there are a lot of cars that are the dark, washed out gray brown colour of the middle photo.  (Yes, there is a significant atmospheric effect in the photo, but many other photos and light conditions show cars in the same dark tones.)  Many other cars move to the pink range.  And many others in the tan range.  I find grey-brown, pink and tan paint very challenging to use on a model.

I’m collecting stills from film footage of the early and mid 1940s.  The angle of the camera to the car side also impacts how the paint is recorded.   But they tend to show most colours lighter than the Delano shots.  i.e. more pink, more tan, more gray-brown.   

So I am looking for what others who’ve delved into this have concluded and found in their experiments.    
<Delano April May 1943 LC-USW36-566.png>
<CB&Q Delano April 1943 LC-USW36-563 .png><cropped Dalano SS car.tiff>
Rob




On Nov 12, 2020, at 6:57 AM, Bill McClure <virginianbill@...> wrote:

Rob,

I don't know the answer to your question, but I will just add that I have been at this hobby, and weathering for a very long time. I have learned more in the last ten years about weathering from a late friend who, in addition to trains, modeled WWII armor and aircraft. He introduced me to Vallejo and other military modeling materials, and to techniques used in that world. There are many YouTube videos from masters of military modeling.

I have spent a lot of time studying and experimenting with those approaches, adjusted for scale and lighting, etc., and have been very pleased with the results.

To echo one of Ben's maxims, weathering done well cannot be quick and easy, in my opinion. 

And I love Jack Delano's photography! I just don't know how to get there under Cool White fluorescent lighting. :)

Bill

<cropped Dalano SS car.tiff>



Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Robert kirkham
 

I wish I could have sat in on one of those clinics; and look forward to the next time you can update that clinic.  Mustn’t have been in the few years I made it to Cocoa Beach.  It’s exactly what I am looking for.  Maybe one of the virtual venues??

Rob

On Nov 12, 2020, at 11:02 AM, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

     Rob, you must have never heard the clinics that Richard Hendrickson did on this topic, nor the joint clinic he and I presented a few times (and which I recently updated and revised for presentation at Cocoa Beach).
      Richard felt strongly that few modelers are willing to make models truly dirty, though in the steam era it was not a rare condition, and that few modelers are capable of modeling BOTH almost-clean cars and seriously dirty cars. Instead, he believed (and I concur) that modelers tend to settle on a degree of weathering that they like and can achieve, and their whole fleet tends to end up that way.
       Regarding the Delano photos, Richard felt that there are some film issues with the colors. He was quite careful in using vintage photos for purposes of color choice, though of course such photos can readily show degrees of dirt.

Tony Thompson





Re: Photo: Imperial Oil Tank Car 7044 (1937)

Ian Cranstone
 

Thanks for finding this photo Bob, it seems to be one I haven’t seen from Library and Archives Canada.

IOX 7044 was actually built by AC&F in the fall of 1920, and reweighed in 3/1937. Following acqusition of the Imperial Oil fleet by UTLX Canadian subsidiary Products Tank Line of Canada (later Procor) at the end of 1952, this car would be renumbered UTLX 26423, and would serve into the 1970s.

The lettering style was adopted by Imperial Oil in 1930 (with some variations), and examples could be found into the 1950s.

Ian Cranstone

Osgoode, Ontario, Canada

lamontc@...

http://freightcars.nakina.net


On Nov 12, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:

Photo: Imperial Oil Tank Car 7044 (1937)
A photo from the National Archives of Canada:
This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.
Built 1937.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Bruce Smith
 

Rob,

As you may remember, I model 1944, so Delano’s photos are a very important resource for me. Like Bill, I have spent some time following the works of military modelers and continue to do so to try to learn more. With respect to clinics, I presented a weathering clinic “From basics to extremes” at Prototype Rails 2018 that I am happy to share.

Some basic thoughts
1) Delano’s colors are not real. They are biased by the film used.
2) Layers, lots of layers
3) Lots of different media and approaches. Each car is a new canvas that should be approached differently (for the unique looks). However, you can and should develop a “fleet approach” for the background. For example, with some 50+ tank cars to weather, I can’t afford the time to do each one as a “work of art” and besides, that’s not what you see. So I have a “fleet” approach that will go on 80-90% of the black cars. It’s still layered, nuanced, and not always to the same extent, but it is pretty fast to do. The rest will get individual touches.

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

On Nov 12, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

Hi Bill,

Moving toward the “Delano look” seems to be a very long road for me.  I’ve been custom mixing pain for quite a while, but it is challenging to land on shades that do justice to the real thing.  And I too am borrowing from the endless Youtube content on weathering techniques and effects.  The military guys have stretched my tool box.  But I am not really content with the results I am achieving yet.  The scale effect and indoor lighting are as much of the challenge as interpreting the photos.  

My question isn’t about CB&Q colours, but just to follow up on an earlier enquiry.  I asked the other day about CB&Q paint - and was advised it was a Mineral red colour (which is, btw, helpful information as a starting point, and I appreciate it).  It was noted that there are products on the market specifically labelled for this colour.  And I can see how they are useful.   

Here’s a couple of examples of a heavily cropped Delano images that show colours I find very hard to duplicate indoors on a model.  I’d say the last photo (taking into account all the interpretation challenges inherent in the photos, etc, etc) might be approximated using, for example, the TruColor CB&Q paint as a starting point.   But the low light in that photo tends to create a colourful glow - I’m not so sure I want to model based on that.  There is a huge range between the three cars.  As many have said before, the colours tend to move toward each other, although there are few cars exactly alike.   And there are a lot of cars that are the dark, washed out gray brown colour of the middle photo.  (Yes, there is a significant atmospheric effect in the photo, but many other photos and light conditions show cars in the same dark tones.)  Many other cars move to the pink range.  And many others in the tan range.  I find grey-brown, pink and tan paint very challenging to use on a model.

I’m collecting stills from film footage of the early and mid 1940s.  The angle of the camera to the car side also impacts how the paint is recorded.   But they tend to show most colours lighter than the Delano shots.  i.e. more pink, more tan, more gray-brown.   

So I am looking for what others who’ve delved into this have concluded and found in their experiments.    
<Delano April May 1943 LC-USW36-566.png>
<CB&Q Delano April 1943 LC-USW36-563 .png><cropped Dalano SS car.tiff>
Rob




On Nov 12, 2020, at 6:57 AM, Bill McClure <virginianbill@...> wrote:

Rob,

I don't know the answer to your question, but I will just add that I have been at this hobby, and weathering for a very long time. I have learned more in the last ten years about weathering from a late friend who, in addition to trains, modeled WWII armor and aircraft. He introduced me to Vallejo and other military modeling materials, and to techniques used in that world. There are many YouTube videos from masters of military modeling.

I have spent a lot of time studying and experimenting with those approaches, adjusted for scale and lighting, etc., and have been very pleased with the results.

To echo one of Ben's maxims, weathering done well cannot be quick and easy, in my opinion. 

And I love Jack Delano's photography! I just don't know how to get there under Cool White fluorescent lighting. :)

Bill

<cropped Dalano SS car.tiff>


Re: Article: 40-Foot Mather Stock Cars From Proto 2000 HO Scale Kits

Ray Breyer
 

Pay close attention to Richard's modeling notes for these cars, keeping in mind that they're biased towards the last decade for this group (1950-1960).

Ignore ALL of his corporate history for Mather. It's wholly wrong, including his hypothesis on their car construction techniques. I'm currently working on a new study of Mather, from the company's incorporation in 1882 to its sale to North American in 1956, and what I'm finding is contradicting everything Richard though was correct about Mather (which in 1915 was the third largest private leasing company behind Armour & UTLX, at 14,066 cars. At one time Mather owned 7.6% of all stock cars running in the United States. The company was anything BUT a scrappy, backwards underdog).

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Thursday, November 12, 2020, 12:04:24 PM CST, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:


Article: 40-Foot Mather Stock Cars From Proto 2000 HO Scale Kits

Courtesy of Train Life, here is a link to an article from the February 1997 issue of Railmodel Journal on single-deck livestock cars by Richard  Hendrickson:

http://magazine.trainlife.com/rmj_1997_2/

The article begins on Page 24.

This is Part I of a series.

Richard discusses the Mather company as well as modeling these cars.

Also included is a chart listing the cars, with car numbers, Mather leased to the railroads.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Tony Thompson
 

     Rob, you must have never heard the clinics that Richard Hendrickson did on this topic, nor the joint clinic he and I presented a few times (and which I recently updated and revised for presentation at Cocoa Beach).
      Richard felt strongly that few modelers are willing to make models truly dirty, though in the steam era it was not a rare condition, and that few modelers are capable of modeling BOTH almost-clean cars and seriously dirty cars. Instead, he believed (and I concur) that modelers tend to settle on a degree of weathering that they like and can achieve, and their whole fleet tends to end up that way.
       Regarding the Delano photos, Richard felt that there are some film issues with the colors. He was quite careful in using vintage photos for purposes of color choice, though of course such photos can readily show degrees of dirt.

Tony Thompson




Photo: Missouri Pacific Gondola 23724 (Undated)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Missouri Pacific Gondola 23724 (Undated)

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3933073

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Photo: CN Boxcar 511477 (1931)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: CN Boxcar 511477 (1931)

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3520060

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Photo: CP Gondola 132138

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: CP Gondola 132138

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3285536

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Car Built 1931.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Photo: Imperial Oil Tank Car 7044 (1937)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Imperial Oil Tank Car 7044 (1937)

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3603416

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Built 1937.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Photo: Borden's Milk Tank Car 522 (Undated)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Borden's Milk Tank Car 522 (Undated)

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3607472

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Lettering to left looks like a bad decal job.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Article: 40-Foot Mather Stock Cars From Proto 2000 HO Scale Kits

Bob Chaparro
 

Article: 40-Foot Mather Stock Cars From Proto 2000 HO Scale Kits

Courtesy of Train Life, here is a link to an article from the February 1997 issue of Railmodel Journal on single-deck livestock cars by Richard  Hendrickson:

http://magazine.trainlife.com/rmj_1997_2/

The article begins on Page 24.

This is Part I of a series.

Richard discusses the Mather company as well as modeling these cars.

Also included is a chart listing the cars, with car numbers, Mather leased to the railroads.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Scalpels

Ken Adams
 

I found the Olfa KB4-5 are much better chisel blades for shaving off unwanted details such as cast grab irons than Xacto #17. But I still need very narrow chisel blade for removing other details.
--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io


Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Robert kirkham
 

Hi Bill,

Moving toward the “Delano look” seems to be a very long road for me.  I’ve been custom mixing pain for quite a while, but it is challenging to land on shades that do justice to the real thing.  And I too am borrowing from the endless Youtube content on weathering techniques and effects.  The military guys have stretched my tool box.  But I am not really content with the results I am achieving yet.  The scale effect and indoor lighting are as much of the challenge as interpreting the photos.  

My question isn’t about CB&Q colours, but just to follow up on an earlier enquiry.  I asked the other day about CB&Q paint - and was advised it was a Mineral red colour (which is, btw, helpful information as a starting point, and I appreciate it).  It was noted that there are products on the market specifically labelled for this colour.  And I can see how they are useful.   

Here’s a couple of examples of a heavily cropped Delano images that show colours I find very hard to duplicate indoors on a model.  I’d say the last photo (taking into account all the interpretation challenges inherent in the photos, etc, etc) might be approximated using, for example, the TruColor CB&Q paint as a starting point.   But the low light in that photo tends to create a colourful glow - I’m not so sure I want to model based on that.  There is a huge range between the three cars.  As many have said before, the colours tend to move toward each other, although there are few cars exactly alike.   And there are a lot of cars that are the dark, washed out gray brown colour of the middle photo.  (Yes, there is a significant atmospheric effect in the photo, but many other photos and light conditions show cars in the same dark tones.)  Many other cars move to the pink range.  And many others in the tan range.  I find grey-brown, pink and tan paint very challenging to use on a model.

I’m collecting stills from film footage of the early and mid 1940s.  The angle of the camera to the car side also impacts how the paint is recorded.   But they tend to show most colours lighter than the Delano shots.  i.e. more pink, more tan, more gray-brown.   

So I am looking for what others who’ve delved into this have concluded and found in their experiments.    
Rob




On Nov 12, 2020, at 6:57 AM, Bill McClure <virginianbill@...> wrote:

Rob,

I don't know the answer to your question, but I will just add that I have been at this hobby, and weathering for a very long time. I have learned more in the last ten years about weathering from a late friend who, in addition to trains, modeled WWII armor and aircraft. He introduced me to Vallejo and other military modeling materials, and to techniques used in that world. There are many YouTube videos from masters of military modeling.

I have spent a lot of time studying and experimenting with those approaches, adjusted for scale and lighting, etc., and have been very pleased with the results.

To echo one of Ben's maxims, weathering done well cannot be quick and easy, in my opinion. 

And I love Jack Delano's photography! I just don't know how to get there under Cool White fluorescent lighting. :)

Bill


Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Bill McClure
 

Rob,

I don't know the answer to your question, but I will just add that I have been at this hobby, and weathering for a very long time. I have learned more in the last ten years about weathering from a late friend who, in addition to trains, modeled WWII armor and aircraft. He introduced me to Vallejo and other military modeling materials, and to techniques used in that world. There are many YouTube videos from masters of military modeling.

I have spent a lot of time studying and experimenting with those approaches, adjusted for scale and lighting, etc., and have been very pleased with the results.

To echo one of Ben's maxims, weathering done well cannot be quick and easy, in my opinion. 

And I love Jack Delano's photography! I just don't know how to get there under Cool White fluorescent lighting. :)

Bill


Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Benjamin Hom
 

Rob Kirkham asked:
"Just wondering if anyone ever did a clinic on finishing WWII era rolling stock based on the Delano photos in the Library of Congress?  I'd love to know what conclusions the presenter reached. 

I see in the list archives some good old conversations about the photos, weathering, and Richard Hendrickson's comments about climbing on the rolling stock as a kid, and how really filthy the cars were; and that modellers who are used to seeing later era rolling stock find that hard to accept (I wonder if I'm among that crowd).   In another place he commented that paint coats and how they weathered in later eras is different - and so, weathering techniques for later eras have less use for models set in the steam era."

For starters, review Richard's article "Vintage Dating Freight Cars" starting on page 32 of the December 1995 issue of Railmodel Journal:
This is required reading for anyone doing weathering, as the underlying argument holds for all eras - freight car fleets are dynamic; not everything is brand new not beat to death, but a range of vintages and repair.

Almost all weathering "how-to" articles have the same flaws:
1. They can't see the forest for the trees (see above Hendrickson article).
2. The technique covered is presented as a silver bullet that will replicate every weathering effect.
3. The technique covered is "so easy, a vestie can do it".


Ben Hom

  


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