Date   

Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Robert kirkham
 

I should have added an observation about this movie footage.  If you look at the shiny surface in the new Southern autobox paint, you can see the blue sky reflected.   While that is less obvious in the dull tones of the other cars, the lens is capturing sky reflections that tone the underlying paint colour.   I am not sure what the angle of the camera does, but expect it also contributed to representation of colour in the images.


Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Tony Thompson
 

Garth Groff wrote:

A shift toward pink suggests that the negatives might be deteriorating. 

   Excellent point. The pinks and violet shades in some Delano images seem more likely to result from slide deterioration than from actual paint fading.
    In book publishing, I occasionally dealt with an ancient slide that was really shifted. Photoshop Autocolor is utterly magical with these. But when there are getting to be brown tones, it means that ALL the dyes are going, and Autocolor can no longer fix it.
     That said, I had the chance to experiment with some of Richard Steinheimer's Ansco slides from the 1950s and early 1960s, which did what Ansco does, really color shift. Playing with them in Photoshop, I was able to get some acceptable images, which astonished Dick. He said, "I tried every filter in the darkroom and couldn't fix those, so I thought they were goners." He was amazed to see a few resurrected.
      No one has mentioned the Robert Maxwell Colorado color from the 1940s, both standard and narrow gauge. Many of the images have beautiful color.

Tony Thompson




Re: ATSF in California

Steve SANDIFER
 

The 2500 SK-Ks were built with Caswell drop bottoms. Beginning in 1935 and continuing to 1940, 1065 of the SK-Ks were rebuilt and renumbered into the 54300-54499 series. This rebuilding removed the roof hatches and Caswell drop bottom along with new door and reinforced sides.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 1:58 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ATSF in California

 

Notes from Larry Occhiello's Santa Fe book, Listing Of Freight Cars By Class & Car Number 1906-1991, indicate one of the three series of Sk-K livestock cars (54300-54499) had sold bottoms.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Robert kirkham
 

Another part of the same train showing one car - a Southern auto-boxcar - in new paint.  The contrast with the other cars in the train is revealing.  Not sure if the car is new, or just repainted - but hope someone on list knows the Southern fleet well enough to say if this helps date the footage.   TrueColor chip attached. 


Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

David Soderblom
 

Regarding 1940s and 50s grunge: I want to strongly agree with Dave Evans.  To put it another way:  
  • We have no better reference of color in the 1940s than Delano and never will.  
  • Moreover those color renditions are fully plausible: one does not see gross miscoloring.  
  • Finally, if your audience has seen the Delano photos, then weathering to that level seems to me to exactly fit the bill.  Everything we do is staging, not reality.  When you watch a play, you’re not fooled into thinking it’s real, but if it’s good it *feels* real and the staging supports that. Isn’t that what we’re trying to do?




David Soderblom
Baltimore MD




--
David Soderblom
Baltimore MD
david.soderblom@...


Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Robert kirkham
 

Another image from Periscope.  Such an interesting train!  

Picking one car and one paint job at random, I find it interesting to compare with the (excellent) Truecolor Wabash paint 191.    




Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Robert kirkham
 

Sorry - hit send in error.  More below. Rob

On Nov 13, 2020, at 12:55 PM, Robert Kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

In addition to Delano, there are other sources for WWII (or close) colour info on railway equipment.  Folks have posted video links here over the years.   Sometimes it is not 100% clear what vintage the film is, but I am still willing to be informed by it.   For example,  some stills from Periscope vintage films, number 70892:

While the film has a number of shots in extreme or poor light, there are also images like these that I think are quite useful.  I think one element that is important to the appearance of cars in this image is the strength of the shadows cast by the overhead sun.  It makes the side braces and other features look darker than the sunlit portions.  But interesting nonetheless.

Rob


Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Robert kirkham
 

In addition to Delano, there are other sources for WWII (or close) colour info on railway equipment. Folks have posted video links here over the years. Sometimes it is not 100% clear what vintage the film is, but I am still willing to be informed by it. For example, some stills from Periscope vintage films, number :


Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Rob,

A shift toward pink suggests that the negatives might be deteriorating. Although I've heard the Kodachrome was supposedly more stable than the later Ektrchrome (and far better than Agfachrome, Anscochrome, Dynachrome and the god-awful Wonder Color, if the odd shifts in my father's slides are typical), no color negative or slide can be expected to last forever. 

Every color film seems to have some sort of bias toward one color or another. The Kodachrome was toward the reds, Ektachrome towards the blues, Anschrome to the greens (which my father liked, probably because it was cheaper than Kodak, and he was something of a cheapskate from growing up in the Depression). The colors in various films could shift, but they also could also just be more saturated. Try playing around with the saturation feature versus color balance in Photoshop to see what I mean. And vis-a-vis the Delano photos, just because there aren't red objects prominent in the photo doesn't mean the rest of the colors aren't being affected. One also must take into account that a photo editor might have played with the particular image.

I once experimented with some Kodak photo-microcography film, which had an effective ASA of 5. It tinted everything purple, but the colors themselves were incredibly saturated. I'm glad I only wasted one roll of this film (at Government expense, but that was considered "training" by my chief). I lost some very interesting pictures of freight cars that simply were not worth keeping (including a D&RGW scale car on the Sacramento Northern! --mandatory freight car content).

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 2:55 PM Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:
Hi Garth - this is the second time the red shift in Kodak film has been mentioned in the various threads of last week or so.   I’m thinking when I look at the Delano images that the red is the colour least present.  All those cars moving to gray/brown.  All the cars looking more pink that our model colour boxcar shades.  Are those consistent observations with the film properties, or something attributable to another cause?

Bill’s note describes many of the factors at play affecting how we need to think through interpretation.   So focusing on just the red shift tendency of Kodac films is, admittedly, just pulling on a single strand in the cloth.  Still, as I try to assess what I think I am seeing, I wonder: if a film has a red shift, then -  shouldn’t that mean a dirty weathered car that looks gray brown in real life should look a richer redder brown in a photo?  Shouldn’t the reds look redder, and the pinks, well, not pink - than we seen in Delano.  

If the answer is yes, then it helps us think about the other biases affecting the images.

Rob



    

On Nov 13, 2020, at 11:14 AM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:

Friends,

FWIIW, Jack Delano probably used Kodachrome Professional sheet film with an ASA of 8 or 10. Such slow films were all that was available until the 1950s. When I was a military photographer in the 1970s, I sometimes used the more modern Kodachrome 25. I can attest that the colors tended to be quite saturated and shifted heavily toward the red, while Kodachrome 64 and 200 gave somewhat less saturated colors but still had the red shift. It would be natural to expect that Kodachrome 10 from Delano's time would have been more extreme. My conclusion is that Delano's photos are great, and are valuable as documentation, but the colors are not necessarily true. One must also take into account the quality of the lighting, as well as factors like how dirty or faded the colors on his subjects were. How much to rely on his colors is a matter of the modeler's taste and interpretation (and layout lighting), and nothing is really right or wrong. 

While Kodachrome was available in 35mm and 828 with the same ASA values, the sharpness of his images suggests he used a Speed Graphic or some similar medium format camera with at least 4 X 5-inch sheet film, or possibly something even larger like a studio Graphlex. In the Coast Guard we still used such cameras for studio portraits, but they were too slow and cumbersome for field work, and also required a hand-held light meter. They took great images though!

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 1:01 PM devansprr <devans1@...> wrote:
Re: Delano film color

I thought Delano's WWII color film was Kodachrome? Arguably the most accurate and stable color film of that era?

What better reference do we have?

I am not a color expert, but about ten years ago I spent some time pushing and pulling various Delano pictures to "adjust" the colors. There are a few select Delano photos where the colors are "fresh" - a just repainted caboose in bright daylight if I recall, and the running lights on an ore carrier in bright daylight.

My conclusion was that, assuming he used the same film throughout (perhaps not valid) any attempts to shift the color to something more "real" in one photo, created absurd colors in another photo.

My admittedly amateur conclusion was that his photos are effectively a gold standard for car weathering in that era. No one has shown be a better "reference" to model to for WWII.

I think the real problem is the denial by some of just how DIRTY railroad right of ways, and the equipment, were in those days. I think Tony's observation is correct - modelers are not willing to weather their cars to the full extent for the steam era, especially in the heavily industrialized east. And I mean no criticism of those modelers - I think it is tough to take a beautifully detailed model and basically wash a huge amount of soot across it...

My dad recalled that in that era a freshly washed car would be covered in soot the next morning in Pennsylvania cities. RoW pictures of the PRR main look like burned out forests, soot covering everything well beyond the immediate right of way. And the soil so acidic that nothing grew near the tracks - no need to control weeds in that era, nor to even model vegetation close to the tracks...

The key to me is that in a few of Delano's Provisio (?) distant yard photos in early spring (some cars have some snow on the roof), there appears perhaps 1 out of 200 cars that has a fresh paint scheme - that car just leaps out at you.

There is also a color movie out there of a PRR coal drag, I think from around 1940, capturing a gritty string of hoppers rolling by, until a freshly painted PRR Gla hopper flashes by - it is almost blinding - closer to international safety orange than any other color (so yes, the film was biased, but then that means every other hopper had even less "color" to it)...

I will refer to Rob's last sentence - weathering quickly becomes artistry - what does the modeler wish to convey? One possibility is to enlighten people to our industrial history, and that the environment in that era was an absolute mess - far dirtier than it is today. YMMV.

Dave Evans




Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Robert kirkham
 

Thanks for this Bill.  The big blue sky thought - as well as your other observations - make good sense to me.   

I had not considered Delano’s possible use of a filter.  It isn’t something I am familiar with in my own photography either.  I wonder - given the state of the art at the time, were filters made to specification and available given the kind of equipment Delano might have used?   Or was that a later development?  

Rob  

On Nov 13, 2020, at 11:09 AM, Bill McClure <virginianbill@...> wrote:

Rob,

A couple of points and then I'll be quiet. The Delano boxcar snip looked to have a color cast. I took it into Lightroom and as small as the PNG is, it still revealed a blue cast over the entire image. I removed that and the colors look richer, less washed out. What's the point? That shot was probably under a blue sky that acted like a big blue light source, soft but blue. The same shot under a cloudy sky would have had a totally different tone. We can adjust white balance today, Delano could only do so with filters, either at camera or in the darkroom. Did he? Who knows. 

Moreover, we don't know if the color cast was introduced somewhere in the steps that brought it to your monitor. I converted to digital photography in 2002 and it took several years for me to begin to grasp the mysteries involved in translating a slide or print from scanner to computer to printer, or God forbid, to four-color press output. (Just look at the variations in color repro work across the railfan press.) And even then the original slide or print might have had its own color bias. Finally, your monitor and my monitor may not 'see' the exact same 'color.'

Second, to Tony's point. I have models that have been finished in ways that would just not 'look right' on my layout, circa 1956. There wouldn't be that 'period theme' that Tony and Bruce seek. My several ACL ventilated boxcars, finished as from the shop in original and rebuilt schemes, just won't work on my layout, so they stay elsewhere. But a weathered FEC version works.

To me, the Delano images are so attractive because there is color harmony, many reds and browns, complemented by blue or green, and an overall warm tone produced by the Kodachrome of the era. It helped that the railroad scene was also full of warm tones, with few distracting colors. I try to find that kind of harmony in my modeling, even if the colors are not perfect.

Anyway, I applaud your quest and wish you success. You have caused me to think about all of these mysteries again.

Be safe,
Bill


Re: ATSF in California

Bob Chaparro
 

Notes from Larry Occhiello's Santa Fe book, Listing Of Freight Cars By Class & Car Number 1906-1991, indicate one of the three series of Sk-K livestock cars (54300-54499) had sold bottoms.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Robert kirkham
 

Hi Garth - this is the second time the red shift in Kodak film has been mentioned in the various threads of last week or so.   I’m thinking when I look at the Delano images that the red is the colour least present.  All those cars moving to gray/brown.  All the cars looking more pink that our model colour boxcar shades.  Are those consistent observations with the film properties, or something attributable to another cause?

Bill’s note describes many of the factors at play affecting how we need to think through interpretation.   So focusing on just the red shift tendency of Kodac films is, admittedly, just pulling on a single strand in the cloth.  Still, as I try to assess what I think I am seeing, I wonder: if a film has a red shift, then -  shouldn’t that mean a dirty weathered car that looks gray brown in real life should look a richer redder brown in a photo?  Shouldn’t the reds look redder, and the pinks, well, not pink - than we seen in Delano.  

If the answer is yes, then it helps us think about the other biases affecting the images.

Rob



    

On Nov 13, 2020, at 11:14 AM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:

Friends,

FWIIW, Jack Delano probably used Kodachrome Professional sheet film with an ASA of 8 or 10. Such slow films were all that was available until the 1950s. When I was a military photographer in the 1970s, I sometimes used the more modern Kodachrome 25. I can attest that the colors tended to be quite saturated and shifted heavily toward the red, while Kodachrome 64 and 200 gave somewhat less saturated colors but still had the red shift. It would be natural to expect that Kodachrome 10 from Delano's time would have been more extreme. My conclusion is that Delano's photos are great, and are valuable as documentation, but the colors are not necessarily true. One must also take into account the quality of the lighting, as well as factors like how dirty or faded the colors on his subjects were. How much to rely on his colors is a matter of the modeler's taste and interpretation (and layout lighting), and nothing is really right or wrong. 

While Kodachrome was available in 35mm and 828 with the same ASA values, the sharpness of his images suggests he used a Speed Graphic or some similar medium format camera with at least 4 X 5-inch sheet film, or possibly something even larger like a studio Graphlex. In the Coast Guard we still used such cameras for studio portraits, but they were too slow and cumbersome for field work, and also required a hand-held light meter. They took great images though!

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 1:01 PM devansprr <devans1@...> wrote:
Re: Delano film color

I thought Delano's WWII color film was Kodachrome? Arguably the most accurate and stable color film of that era?

What better reference do we have?

I am not a color expert, but about ten years ago I spent some time pushing and pulling various Delano pictures to "adjust" the colors. There are a few select Delano photos where the colors are "fresh" - a just repainted caboose in bright daylight if I recall, and the running lights on an ore carrier in bright daylight.

My conclusion was that, assuming he used the same film throughout (perhaps not valid) any attempts to shift the color to something more "real" in one photo, created absurd colors in another photo.

My admittedly amateur conclusion was that his photos are effectively a gold standard for car weathering in that era. No one has shown be a better "reference" to model to for WWII.

I think the real problem is the denial by some of just how DIRTY railroad right of ways, and the equipment, were in those days. I think Tony's observation is correct - modelers are not willing to weather their cars to the full extent for the steam era, especially in the heavily industrialized east. And I mean no criticism of those modelers - I think it is tough to take a beautifully detailed model and basically wash a huge amount of soot across it...

My dad recalled that in that era a freshly washed car would be covered in soot the next morning in Pennsylvania cities. RoW pictures of the PRR main look like burned out forests, soot covering everything well beyond the immediate right of way. And the soil so acidic that nothing grew near the tracks - no need to control weeds in that era, nor to even model vegetation close to the tracks...

The key to me is that in a few of Delano's Provisio (?) distant yard photos in early spring (some cars have some snow on the roof), there appears perhaps 1 out of 200 cars that has a fresh paint scheme - that car just leaps out at you.

There is also a color movie out there of a PRR coal drag, I think from around 1940, capturing a gritty string of hoppers rolling by, until a freshly painted PRR Gla hopper flashes by - it is almost blinding - closer to international safety orange than any other color (so yes, the film was biased, but then that means every other hopper had even less "color" to it)...

I will refer to Rob's last sentence - weathering quickly becomes artistry - what does the modeler wish to convey? One possibility is to enlighten people to our industrial history, and that the environment in that era was an absolute mess - far dirtier than it is today. YMMV.

Dave Evans




Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Dave Nelson
 

I have similar concerns.  I’ve pulled a fair number of Delano’s photos into a top end photo editor and “adjusted” them.  They look better.  But what I wonder is this: Is today’s “better” simply artificially saturated?  Is today’s “better” bright, clear light that maybe wasn’t present when the photo was taken?  Delano was shooting in December.  I know Chicago Decembers and there are more than a fair share of pretty gloomy days.

 

All of which leaves me wondering the exact same question raised by Dave Evans, below – that maybe these old images ARE exactly what freight cars looked like in December, 1943, in and around Chicago.  I just don’t know but I do hesitate to label them off in any way.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of devansprr
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 10:02 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

 

Re: Delano film color

I thought Delano's WWII color film was Kodachrome? Arguably the most accurate and stable color film of that era?

What better reference do we have?
Dave Evans


Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Friends,

FWIIW, Jack Delano probably used Kodachrome Professional sheet film with an ASA of 8 or 10. Such slow films were all that was available until the 1950s. When I was a military photographer in the 1970s, I sometimes used the more modern Kodachrome 25. I can attest that the colors tended to be quite saturated and shifted heavily toward the red, while Kodachrome 64 and 200 gave somewhat less saturated colors but still had the red shift. It would be natural to expect that Kodachrome 10 from Delano's time would have been more extreme. My conclusion is that Delano's photos are great, and are valuable as documentation, but the colors are not necessarily true. One must also take into account the quality of the lighting, as well as factors like how dirty or faded the colors on his subjects were. How much to rely on his colors is a matter of the modeler's taste and interpretation (and layout lighting), and nothing is really right or wrong. 

While Kodachrome was available in 35mm and 828 with the same ASA values, the sharpness of his images suggests he used a Speed Graphic or some similar medium format camera with at least 4 X 5-inch sheet film, or possibly something even larger like a studio Graphlex. In the Coast Guard we still used such cameras for studio portraits, but they were too slow and cumbersome for field work, and also required a hand-held light meter. They took great images though!

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆


On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 1:01 PM devansprr <devans1@...> wrote:
Re: Delano film color

I thought Delano's WWII color film was Kodachrome? Arguably the most accurate and stable color film of that era?

What better reference do we have?

I am not a color expert, but about ten years ago I spent some time pushing and pulling various Delano pictures to "adjust" the colors. There are a few select Delano photos where the colors are "fresh" - a just repainted caboose in bright daylight if I recall, and the running lights on an ore carrier in bright daylight.

My conclusion was that, assuming he used the same film throughout (perhaps not valid) any attempts to shift the color to something more "real" in one photo, created absurd colors in another photo.

My admittedly amateur conclusion was that his photos are effectively a gold standard for car weathering in that era. No one has shown be a better "reference" to model to for WWII.

I think the real problem is the denial by some of just how DIRTY railroad right of ways, and the equipment, were in those days. I think Tony's observation is correct - modelers are not willing to weather their cars to the full extent for the steam era, especially in the heavily industrialized east. And I mean no criticism of those modelers - I think it is tough to take a beautifully detailed model and basically wash a huge amount of soot across it...

My dad recalled that in that era a freshly washed car would be covered in soot the next morning in Pennsylvania cities. RoW pictures of the PRR main look like burned out forests, soot covering everything well beyond the immediate right of way. And the soil so acidic that nothing grew near the tracks - no need to control weeds in that era, nor to even model vegetation close to the tracks...

The key to me is that in a few of Delano's Provisio (?) distant yard photos in early spring (some cars have some snow on the roof), there appears perhaps 1 out of 200 cars that has a fresh paint scheme - that car just leaps out at you.

There is also a color movie out there of a PRR coal drag, I think from around 1940, capturing a gritty string of hoppers rolling by, until a freshly painted PRR Gla hopper flashes by - it is almost blinding - closer to international safety orange than any other color (so yes, the film was biased, but then that means every other hopper had even less "color" to it)...

I will refer to Rob's last sentence - weathering quickly becomes artistry - what does the modeler wish to convey? One possibility is to enlighten people to our industrial history, and that the environment in that era was an absolute mess - far dirtier than it is today. YMMV.

Dave Evans


Re: Article: 40-Foot Mather Stock Cars From Proto 2000 HO Scale Kits

Ray Breyer
 

Dunno why some people focus on the flying gondola; Mather made his first fortune (which paid for the freight cars) with a patented glove clasp that's still in use today.

You'd think that his 1905 patent for concrete ties would be a bit more interesting.   :-)

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Friday, November 13, 2020, 01:03:05 PM CST, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:


On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 11:06 AM, Ray Breyer wrote:
I'm currently working on a new study of Mather, from the company's incorporation in 1882 to its sale to North American in 1956,
Be sure to include examples of Alonzo's patents. His patent for a "Flying Machine" is a classic.

Any company that could build a skyscraper in Chicago's Loop district might have been scrappy, but was hardly a "backwards underdog"... even if it was the skinniest skyscraper ever.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Bill McClure
 

Rob,

A couple of points and then I'll be quiet. The Delano boxcar snip looked to have a color cast. I took it into Lightroom and as small as the PNG is, it still revealed a blue cast over the entire image. I removed that and the colors look richer, less washed out. What's the point? That shot was probably under a blue sky that acted like a big blue light source, soft but blue. The same shot under a cloudy sky would have had a totally different tone. We can adjust white balance today, Delano could only do so with filters, either at camera or in the darkroom. Did he? Who knows. 

Moreover, we don't know if the color cast was introduced somewhere in the steps that brought it to your monitor. I converted to digital photography in 2002 and it took several years for me to begin to grasp the mysteries involved in translating a slide or print from scanner to computer to printer, or God forbid, to four-color press output. (Just look at the variations in color repro work across the railfan press.) And even then the original slide or print might have had its own color bias. Finally, your monitor and my monitor may not 'see' the exact same 'color.'

Second, to Tony's point. I have models that have been finished in ways that would just not 'look right' on my layout, circa 1956. There wouldn't be that 'period theme' that Tony and Bruce seek. My several ACL ventilated boxcars, finished as from the shop in original and rebuilt schemes, just won't work on my layout, so they stay elsewhere. But a weathered FEC version works.

To me, the Delano images are so attractive because there is color harmony, many reds and browns, complemented by blue or green, and an overall warm tone produced by the Kodachrome of the era. It helped that the railroad scene was also full of warm tones, with few distracting colors. I try to find that kind of harmony in my modeling, even if the colors are not perfect.

Anyway, I applaud your quest and wish you success. You have caused me to think about all of these mysteries again.

Be safe,
Bill


Photo: NYC&HR Gondola 81888

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: NYC&HR Gondola 81888

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3277265

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Article: 40-Foot Mather Stock Cars From Proto 2000 HO Scale Kits

Dennis Storzek
 

On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 11:06 AM, Ray Breyer wrote:
I'm currently working on a new study of Mather, from the company's incorporation in 1882 to its sale to North American in 1956,
Be sure to include examples of Alonzo's patents. His patent for a "Flying Machine" is a classic.

Any company that could build a skyscraper in Chicago's Loop district might have been scrappy, but was hardly a "backwards underdog"... even if it was the skinniest skyscraper ever.

Dennis Storzek


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Dave, Tony, and all;

 

I agree with everything being said, with the addition that while true for the PRR (I grew up in Pittsburgh in the sixties and seventies, and well remember the air, water and ground pollution), I also traveled the nation, and other area landscapes were far less filthy, but not entirely for freight cars.  Some freight cars that were more restricted were not as filthy, some western roads in particular.  And it did vary by car type.

 

I also agree with the >90% filthy observation.  Absolutely.

 

My lesson out of that was:  model from photographs of the specific car, in its period!

 

And yes, Delano IS the gold standard:  Kodachrome…..they are the only slides I took that looked like the real thing.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of devansprr
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 1:02 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

 

Re: Delano film color

I thought Delano's WWII color film was Kodachrome? Arguably the most accurate and stable color film of that era?

What better reference do we have?

I am not a color expert, but about ten years ago I spent some time pushing and pulling various Delano pictures to "adjust" the colors. There are a few select Delano photos where the colors are "fresh" - a just repainted caboose in bright daylight if I recall, and the running lights on an ore carrier in bright daylight.

My conclusion was that, assuming he used the same film throughout (perhaps not valid) any attempts to shift the color to something more "real" in one photo, created absurd colors in another photo.

My admittedly amateur conclusion was that his photos are effectively a gold standard for car weathering in that era. No one has shown be a better "reference" to model to for WWII.

I think the real problem is the denial by some of just how DIRTY railroad right of ways, and the equipment, were in those days. I think Tony's observation is correct - modelers are not willing to weather their cars to the full extent for the steam era, especially in the heavily industrialized east. And I mean no criticism of those modelers - I think it is tough to take a beautifully detailed model and basically wash a huge amount of soot across it...

My dad recalled that in that era a freshly washed car would be covered in soot the next morning in Pennsylvania cities. RoW pictures of the PRR main look like burned out forests, soot covering everything well beyond the immediate right of way. And the soil so acidic that nothing grew near the tracks - no need to control weeds in that era, nor to even model vegetation close to the tracks...

The key to me is that in a few of Delano's Provisio (?) distant yard photos in early spring (some cars have some snow on the roof), there appears perhaps 1 out of 200 cars that has a fresh paint scheme - that car just leaps out at you.

There is also a color movie out there of a PRR coal drag, I think from around 1940, capturing a gritty string of hoppers rolling by, until a freshly painted PRR Gla hopper flashes by - it is almost blinding - closer to international safety orange than any other color (so yes, the film was biased, but then that means every other hopper had even less "color" to it)...

I will refer to Rob's last sentence - weathering quickly becomes artistry - what does the modeler wish to convey? One possibility is to enlighten people to our industrial history, and that the environment in that era was an absolute mess - far dirtier than it is today. YMMV.

Dave Evans


Re: Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

devansprr
 

Re: Delano film color

I thought Delano's WWII color film was Kodachrome? Arguably the most accurate and stable color film of that era?

What better reference do we have?

I am not a color expert, but about ten years ago I spent some time pushing and pulling various Delano pictures to "adjust" the colors. There are a few select Delano photos where the colors are "fresh" - a just repainted caboose in bright daylight if I recall, and the running lights on an ore carrier in bright daylight.

My conclusion was that, assuming he used the same film throughout (perhaps not valid) any attempts to shift the color to something more "real" in one photo, created absurd colors in another photo.

My admittedly amateur conclusion was that his photos are effectively a gold standard for car weathering in that era. No one has shown be a better "reference" to model to for WWII.

I think the real problem is the denial by some of just how DIRTY railroad right of ways, and the equipment, were in those days. I think Tony's observation is correct - modelers are not willing to weather their cars to the full extent for the steam era, especially in the heavily industrialized east. And I mean no criticism of those modelers - I think it is tough to take a beautifully detailed model and basically wash a huge amount of soot across it...

My dad recalled that in that era a freshly washed car would be covered in soot the next morning in Pennsylvania cities. RoW pictures of the PRR main look like burned out forests, soot covering everything well beyond the immediate right of way. And the soil so acidic that nothing grew near the tracks - no need to control weeds in that era, nor to even model vegetation close to the tracks...

The key to me is that in a few of Delano's Provisio (?) distant yard photos in early spring (some cars have some snow on the roof), there appears perhaps 1 out of 200 cars that has a fresh paint scheme - that car just leaps out at you.

There is also a color movie out there of a PRR coal drag, I think from around 1940, capturing a gritty string of hoppers rolling by, until a freshly painted PRR Gla hopper flashes by - it is almost blinding - closer to international safety orange than any other color (so yes, the film was biased, but then that means every other hopper had even less "color" to it)...

I will refer to Rob's last sentence - weathering quickly becomes artistry - what does the modeler wish to convey? One possibility is to enlighten people to our industrial history, and that the environment in that era was an absolute mess - far dirtier than it is today. YMMV.

Dave Evans

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