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Re: Bill Welch
SamClarke
I was off work yesterday and when I returned this morning I found my STMFC file sadly filled with “BILL WELCH” in the subject and my heart just dropped filled with the sorrow of loosing another man of class, extreme modeler, and a very good friend. My direct contact with Bill was limited to the few RPMs I’ve been able to attend, however, I’ve spent a great deal of time talking to Bill via e-mails and phone cons. A bit opposite of most of you that have commented because rather than being helped by Bill I actually was helping Bill find non stocked Kadee detail parts and such. I really enjoyed him and our conversations.
Bill was simply a man of class and he will be sorely missed. Our condolences go out to his family and friends.
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 4, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Group;
Then there are the well cars with no floor, like the FN.
Here is Jack Consoli’s fabulous rendition (featured in TKM) in which the load is both suspended and distributed to side sills and ends, but blocked inside the well with distribution to the end members shown in the photo of 470026. Yes, stenciled merely as “FW”.
The F37B got the very tallest loads that could be accommodated on a railroad. Obviously they traveled widely, since nothing else could do what they did.
Fascinating.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:14 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 2, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
Group;
One of the interesting engineering problems in those days was how to distribute a load across the car without destroying the car.
For well cars with floors that were load-bearing, it generally involved distributing part of the load to the inside of the car where the load attached, but also to the (generally) more rugged (and deeper) side sill, by means of a series of load-bearing shapes connecting well bottom/side cross members, to the outside sill.
RDG 99009 is one of those. This load is clearly resting on the floor. No load is transferred to the ends or side sills.
But, Here are a couple shots illustrating a load being transferred to the side sill:
Concentration of a load on the floor would punch through the generally thin or shallow cross bearers in these cars. The Otis load is being spread out broadly.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Group;
I thought maybe one or two of you would be interested in this murky subject:
There are at least several kinds of well cars, interestingly not separated in the AAR classification, which just lumps them together as “FW” – “Flat well-hole car for special transportation of plate glass, etc. This car is a flat car with hole in middle to enable lading to be dropped down on account of clearance limits.”
Clear as mud.
To a shipper that has a vertically oversized load to ship, there are some important considerations I would want to know. Does the car have a floor in the well? How far is it from the rails? Is the floor load bearing? If my load added on top of that still exceeds clearance, are portions of the floor removable in order to drop it closer to the rail without touching (especially important in the shipment of giant rings or circular ductwork or piping/valves)? If this still doesn’t work, is there a car that has no floor that I could suspend the load into, that would work? We are literally talking inches here….
None of that is clear in an AAR classification, forcing one to look at each car in detail, a shipper’s nightmare.
I can’t answer why, but they never did fully flesh this out.
PRR clearly had shippers in mind when they put more info in the ORER under each car, as notes (more on that in a follow-on).
Attached, the earliest PRR well hole car, the FN, with no floor, and the FNA with a nominal floor that can be removed if needed. It is clearly not a load bearing floor.
The last photo is interesting. The shipper needs both flooring partially (at the least) removed, AND a tilt to the load to get it within clearance limits. They have clearly supported the edges of the load above the rails by installing supports beneath on either side of the rim. How’s THAT for an innovative solution?
These guys were smart!
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated) A photo from the National Archives of Canada: This photo can be enlarged quite a bit. Car built 1924, photo taken 1938 or later. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA
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Re: GN 1948 Box Cars
The straight bottom edges seen on one major rib of SRE ends existed on MANY freight cars of the postwar era but the only HO scale model in mass production is Accurail's version as far as I know. We have talked about it many times on STMFC over the years. IRC actually makes TWO different 3/4 10-0 box car ends, but as you point out neither one has the flattened bottom edge of one major rib.
On 11/18/2020 6:37 PM, Steve Haas wrote:
--
Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 3, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Tom;
They were 70-ton cars, believe it or not.
Someone is going to weigh in on what class battleship that turret faceplate is destined for.
I noted how the load is accommodated by distribution to the end sheets, side sills, and bolted in place thru the floor. Very interesting. This due to PRR warnings in ORER about load distribution.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Thomas Evans via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:08 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
A piece of 18" armor plate that big must have been SOME heavy!
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 2, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Group;
One of the interesting engineering problems in those days was how to distribute a load across the car without destroying the car.
For well cars with floors that were load-bearing, it generally involved distributing part of the load to the inside of the car where the load attached, but also to the (generally) more rugged (and deeper) side sill, by means of a series of load-bearing shapes connecting well bottom/side cross members, to the outside sill.
RDG 99009 is one of those. This load is clearly resting on the floor. No load is transferred to the ends or side sills.
But, Here are a couple shots illustrating a load being transferred to the side sill:
Concentration of a load on the floor would punch through the generally thin or shallow cross bearers in these cars. The Otis load is being spread out broadly.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:55 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
Group;
I thought maybe one or two of you would be interested in this murky subject:
There are at least several kinds of well cars, interestingly not separated in the AAR classification, which just lumps them together as “FW” – “Flat well-hole car for special transportation of plate glass, etc. This car is a flat car with hole in middle to enable lading to be dropped down on account of clearance limits.”
Clear as mud.
To a shipper that has a vertically oversized load to ship, there are some important considerations I would want to know. Does the car have a floor in the well? How far is it from the rails? Is the floor load bearing? If my load added on top of that still exceeds clearance, are portions of the floor removable in order to drop it closer to the rail without touching (especially important in the shipment of giant rings or circular ductwork or piping/valves)? If this still doesn’t work, is there a car that has no floor that I could suspend the load into, that would work? We are literally talking inches here….
None of that is clear in an AAR classification, forcing one to look at each car in detail, a shipper’s nightmare.
I can’t answer why, but they never did fully flesh this out.
PRR clearly had shippers in mind when they put more info in the ORER under each car, as notes (more on that in a follow-on).
Attached, the earliest PRR well hole car, the FN, with no floor, and the FNA with a nominal floor that can be removed if needed. It is clearly not a load bearing floor.
The last photo is interesting. The shipper needs both flooring partially (at the least) removed, AND a tilt to the load to get it within clearance limits. They have clearly supported the edges of the load above the rails by installing supports beneath on either side of the rim. How’s THAT for an innovative solution?
These guys were smart!
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated) A photo from the National Archives of Canada: This photo can be enlarged quite a bit. Car built 1924, photo taken 1938 or later. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA
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Bill Welch
I do appreciate everyone’s comments and tributes to Bill. He entrusted me and a small group of fellow modelers to prepare part of his Celebration of Life service. To that end I am collecting photos and stories, which we hope to share at a future date.
In the meantime many may not be aware that Bill was a photo journalist early in life. As we witnessed by his superb close up photography of HO models in progress. Here is a photo and tribute I received this morning of Bill in his photog gear back when.
Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
A piece of 18" armor plate that big must have been SOME heavy!
Wonder what the capacity of the car was? Tom
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Re: Bill Welch
So true, Jim. I thought about the airbrush demos last night. Here is a picture of Bill from CCB in 2016.
He repeated the hands on at Collinsville that same year.
And finally in Naperville in the fall, Bill looks over his “hands on” clinic.
After we lost Richard and Martin, I realized how few of my pictures from the RPM meets had people in them. Now, I do try to better document our friends, as well as the models.
Here is Bill talking to Ryan Mendall from last January.
Sic transit Gloria.
Steve Hile
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of np328
I used to really enjoy sitting in on Bill’s presentations, often seeing it first at Chicago then again at CCB or vice versa. Bill made you believe that you could do it and then showed you how. He took the time to allow for questions and answered them. I think he liked the term Extreme Modeler however his presentations were all about – we, we could do it too. Like some others here, I helped research for Bill after he found out that there was a nice chunk of info at the Minnesota Historical Society and I local to that. I’d send him off a folder in the mail and then in a few weeks get an e-mail asking me when is the next folder coming? A reminder that the rate I was charging (free, even picking up the copy fees) got a short reply, OK.… I thought that just in helping the book come out was payment enough. And as with any research, I also learnt along the way. His presentations to me were always a must see. I’m not surprised Bill went fast. After my late brother and his wife came by one night I could sense things were different. He in time stated that his doc had ended further therapy as there looked to be no further hope. After that, he was different looked at things different. I cannot begin to imagine the thoughts of my brother, Bill, or others who have heard those words. And Rob Manley….. Rob’s cars out at Chicago or a Q meet were always something to see. He was so modest in what he did so very well. That’s what I felt about him. At the Chicago Institute of Art there is a painting of three Muses. I’ve looked at it often. One of them pulls forward the strands of our lives. Another determines how full the strands should be and the third one determines the length of our lives cutting the end of it, determining how long we will live. I looked for it online before posting this however could not find it. If I might offer that there is any lesson for us….. When I used to walk out of the hospital after a shift, I used to like to walk out the main door as that was the fastest way outdoors even if it was cold or rainy. Controlled environment, you’ll get that six under. Then I’d go down to the side, passing ER. Invariably outside ER from a small gathered group, I would hear in an often very pained voice – If only I would have told them how I feel about them. Words sad to hear, heard more often than words like that should be said.
Take instances like now as a lesson not to wait. Tell people you care about how you feel about them, how much you care about them, while they are here.
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My personal tribute to Bill Welch
I’d met Bill at one of the RPM meets in Collinsville, Illinois and we both ‘hit it off’. Bill invited me to a small group session of ‘resin builders’ later that day. I was thinking how could I keep Bill’s memory alive and I thought about his Extreme Modeling PowerPoint I have saved. I’ve been working on an Accurail MKT boxcar, carving off the plastic hand holds, etc and thought I’d like to bring this up to Bill’s
standards as in his PP and decided my tribute to Bill going forward is to have at least a few ‘Bill Welch Standards’ running on the layout. -- Charlie Duckworth Omaha, Ne.
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Re: Bill
Schuyler Larrabee
Thanks, Nelson, that is a much better image of Bill.
Schuyler
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:34 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Bill
Here’s a photo Eric Hansmann took at the 2017 RPM in Lisle. This is Bill at his impishly smiling best. Bill is standing far enough apart from the rest of us so that the photo can easily be cropped to remove us lesser mortals.
Nelson Moyer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Not a great photo, but it’s what I’ve got.
Schuyler
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Group;
I thought maybe one or two of you would be interested in this murky subject:
There are at least several kinds of well cars, interestingly not separated in the AAR classification, which just lumps them together as “FW” – “Flat well-hole car for special transportation of plate glass, etc. This car is a flat car with hole in middle to enable lading to be dropped down on account of clearance limits.”
Clear as mud.
To a shipper that has a vertically oversized load to ship, there are some important considerations I would want to know. Does the car have a floor in the well? How far is it from the rails? Is the floor load bearing? If my load added on top of that still exceeds clearance, are portions of the floor removable in order to drop it closer to the rail without touching (especially important in the shipment of giant rings or circular ductwork or piping/valves)? If this still doesn’t work, is there a car that has no floor that I could suspend the load into, that would work? We are literally talking inches here….
None of that is clear in an AAR classification, forcing one to look at each car in detail, a shipper’s nightmare.
I can’t answer why, but they never did fully flesh this out.
PRR clearly had shippers in mind when they put more info in the ORER under each car, as notes (more on that in a follow-on).
Attached, the earliest PRR well hole car, the FN, with no floor, and the FNA with a nominal floor that can be removed if needed. It is clearly not a load bearing floor.
The last photo is interesting. The shipper needs both flooring partially (at the least) removed, AND a tilt to the load to get it within clearance limits. They have clearly supported the edges of the load above the rails by installing supports beneath on either side of the rim. How’s THAT for an innovative solution?
These guys were smart!
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 12:43 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated) A photo from the National Archives of Canada: This photo can be enlarged quite a bit. Car built 1924, photo taken 1938 or later. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA
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Re: Bill
Nelson Moyer
Here’s a photo Eric Hansmann took at the 2017 RPM in Lisle. This is Bill at his impishly smiling best. Bill is standing far enough apart from the rest of us so that the photo can easily be cropped to remove us lesser mortals.
Nelson Moyer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io]
On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 10:51 PM To: RealSTMFC@groups.io Subject: [RealSTMFC] Bill
Not a great photo, but it’s what I’ve got.
Schuyler
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Re: Bill Welch
Spen Kellogg
I have been going to Cocoa Beach for several years now in order to improve my modeling skills. The clinic that made the biggest impact on me was when Bill took over the coffee bar in the hotel for a hands on clinic on basic air brush painting. Air brushing had always been daunting to me, but Bill took the mystery out of it. And every one of Bill's highly detailed clinics on the Resin Car Works site I have transferred to paper, so that they are easily at hand at my workbench.
There have been so many tributes to Bill, and I agree with all of them. All I can add is "Amen, Brother! Amen! Rest in peace." Spen Kellogg
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M3 Tanks Correction
Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Friends, By chance I ran across the TRAINS issue with the photograph showing M3 tanks that I spoke of earlier this week. Sadly, my memory was defective, but in my defense, I hadn't seen that picture for years. The photo is found in the August 1953 issue of TRAINS & TRAVEL (the earlier title of Kalmbach's current TRAINS MAGAZINE) on page 45. It shows several M3 or other obsolete tanks with ACL Pacific 447. The photo is by Philip R. Hastings and bears the following cutline: "Retreads", both Coast Line 4-6-2 No. 447 and the tanks beside her were mobilized in the summer of 1951 for Army maneuvers at Ft. Bragg. So this photo says nothing about National Guard use, or even Army Reserves. Still, the tanks are there. I would have loved to scan this photo and attach it to this post, but I believe that is forbidden by our rules since this magazine is still in copyright. Yours Aye, Garth Groff 🦆
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Re: Bill Welch
np328
I used to really enjoy sitting in on Bill’s presentations, often seeing it first at Chicago then again at CCB or vice versa. Bill made you believe that you could do it and then showed you how. He took the time to allow for questions and answered them. I think he liked the term Extreme Modeler however his presentations were all about – we, we could do it too. Like some others here, I helped research for Bill after he found out that there was a nice chunk of info at the Minnesota Historical Society and I local to that. I’d send him off a folder in the mail and then in a few weeks get an e-mail asking me when is the next folder coming? A reminder that the rate I was charging (free, even picking up the copy fees) got a short reply, OK.… I thought that just in helping the book come out was payment enough. And as with any research, I also learnt along the way. His presentations to me were always a must see. I’m not surprised Bill went fast. After my late brother and his wife came by one night I could sense things were different. He in time stated that his doc had ended further therapy as there looked to be no further hope. After that, he was different looked at things different. I cannot begin to imagine the thoughts of my brother, Bill, or others who have heard those words. And Rob Manley….. Rob’s cars out at Chicago or a Q meet were always something to see. He was so modest in what he did so very well. That’s what I felt about him. At the Chicago Institute of Art there is a painting of three Muses. I’ve looked at it often. One of them pulls forward the strands of our lives. Another determines how full the strands should be and the third one determines the length of our lives cutting the end of it, determining how long we will live. I looked for it online before posting this however could not find it. If I might offer that there is any lesson for us….. When I used to walk out of the hospital after a shift, I used to like to walk out the main door as that was the fastest way outdoors even if it was cold or rainy. Controlled environment, you’ll get that six under. Then I’d go down to the side, passing ER. Invariably outside ER from a small gathered group, I would hear in an often very pained voice – If only I would have told them how I feel about them. Words sad to hear, heard more often than words like that should be said.
Take instances like now as a lesson not to wait. Tell people you care about how you feel about them, how much you care about them, while they are here.
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Bill
Schuyler Larrabee
Not a great photo, but it’s what I’ve got.
Schuyler
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Re: F/S: HO freight car kits by P2K, Red Caboose, Stewart, Tichy and Walthers
Schuyler Larrabee
Sorry, forgot to forward in stead of reply. Doing too many things at once.
Schuyler
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 10:46 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] F/S: HO freight car kits by P2K, Red Caboose, Stewart, Tichy and Walthers
I am interested in some of what you sent the other day, I’ve just been straight out and haven’t had the time to respond. Please send this list. Thanks.
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Hugh Guillaume via groups.io
F/S: new old stock HO freight car kits by Proto 2000, Red Caboose, Stewart, Tichy and Walthers, all on one list, to receive the list send an e-mail to me at: mguill1224 at aol dot com Offered by Hugh T Guillaume, 160 Parkledge Drive, Amherst NY 14226.
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Re: GN 1948 Box Cars
Schuyler Larrabee
Or simply scroll down to see if there is a link, as is often the case.
Schuyler
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dave Parker via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 11:08 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] GN 1948 Box Cars
If you think a photo has been "stripped", please just go to the Messages function on groups.io. It's there, as it usually is.
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Re: GN 1948 Box Cars
Dave Parker
If you think a photo has been "stripped", please just go to the Messages function on groups.io. It's there, as it usually is.
-- Dave Parker Swall Meadows, CA
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Re: F/S: HO freight car kits by P2K, Red Caboose, Stewart, Tichy and Walthers
Schuyler Larrabee
I am interested in some of what you sent the other day, I’ve just been straight out and haven’t had the time to respond. Please send this list. Thanks.
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Hugh Guillaume via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 10:43 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: [RealSTMFC] F/S: HO freight car kits by P2K, Red Caboose, Stewart, Tichy and Walthers
F/S: new old stock HO freight car kits by Proto 2000, Red Caboose, Stewart, Tichy and Walthers, all on one list, to receive the list send an e-mail to me at: mguill1224 at aol dot com Offered by Hugh T Guillaume, 160 Parkledge Drive, Amherst NY 14226.
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