Re: GTW 583200 series autocar with 7' door - 1940 era
Robert kirkham
In case anyone else is building one of the F&C kit no.6650 models and wonders what decals are appropriate, I eventually made a breakthrough this evening. I have not exhausted possible CV prototypes, but haven’t found one yet either. But in the GTW fleet, I found a photo of a car that has approximately the same characteristics: GTW441304, of the
441311- 441499. Ian Cranstone’s roster information says these were converted from the
x583702-584701
series in 1940. The entry reads: “
x583702-584701
series /40, 441311-441499 ret.? /41, some re#586500-586999 series? /46-/47.”
The 583702 series were described as series 2 cars in Stafford Swaine’s article in Railmodel Journal Feb 2001 titled “Modeling 40-Foot CN Steel-Frame Box Cars, Part III, Type E Cars In HO Scale From Steam Shack Kits”. They originally had the end doors and a 10’ 6” side door opening. The conversion to the 441311 series shows the side doors reduced to 6’, (not the 7’ called out and modelled in the F&C kit). So this isn’t a perfect fit with the model, but since I have it 90% complete, I have to land on something. I’m not entirely sure what “ret.? /41" means. The 441311 series lasted though to 1970. Cars in the 586500-586999 series conversions of 1946/47 were identified ins Swaine’s article as conversions from series 1, 2 and 3 cars, and shown as still having 12’ side doors. I also found a photo of 465142 which, to my eye, may have a 7’ door. But in the roster info Ian Cranstone has listed, the series is shown as 6’ doors. Other photos from that series have no end doors. So its a bit of a mixed bag.
I have more work to do sorting this model’s prototype out, but I’m leaning toward doing a model of a car in the 441311 series and assume there were 7’ doors in that group. Not ideal prototype modelling with a resin kit!! Rob
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Re: Photo: ATSF Boxcar 212625 Bx-12 (1948)
Jim Gates
The last Bx-12's in revenue service were in 1974. So certainly AB brakes. I believe most of the received steel sheathing. Jim Gates
On Sunday, November 22, 2020, 10:07:22 PM CST, Todd Horton via groups.io <toddchorton@...> wrote: Great photo, did these cars get AB brakes and survive till? Todd Horton On Sunday, November 22, 2020, 09:14:49 PM EST, BRIAN PAUL EHNI <bpehni@...> wrote:
Thanks!
From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of "Bob Chaparro via groups.io" <chiefbobbb@...>
Photo: ATSF Boxcar 212625 Bx-12 (1948) A photo from the Denver Public Library: https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/55053/rec/56 Click on the arrows in the upper right hand corner of the photo to enlarge it and scroll to enlarge it further. Car built in 1930. The car height was extended with a new steel panel roof and upper side and end panels during a minor rebuilding program in 1941-1944. Car has a switching tag or card ("52") on the door. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA
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Re: Photo: ATSF Boxcar 212625 Bx-12 (1948)
Todd Horton
Great photo, did these cars get AB brakes and survive till? Todd Horton
On Sunday, November 22, 2020, 09:14:49 PM EST, BRIAN PAUL EHNI <bpehni@...> wrote:
Thanks!
From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of "Bob Chaparro via groups.io" <chiefbobbb@...>
Photo: ATSF Boxcar 212625 Bx-12 (1948) A photo from the Denver Public Library: https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/55053/rec/56 Click on the arrows in the upper right hand corner of the photo to enlarge it and scroll to enlarge it further. Car built in 1930. The car height was extended with a new steel panel roof and upper side and end panels during a minor rebuilding program in 1941-1944. Car has a switching tag or card ("52") on the door. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA
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Re: Photo: Rock Island Boxcar 22335 (1952)
hubert mask
FYI , I offer that decal for the ACF and Pullman car. 100 years.
Nice photo.
Hubert Mask
Mask Island Decals Inc.
On Nov 22, 2020, at 9:12 PM, BRIAN PAUL EHNI <bpehni@...> wrote:
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Re: Photo: ATSF Boxcar 212625 Bx-12 (1948)
Thanks!
From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of "Bob Chaparro via groups.io" <chiefbobbb@...>
Photo: ATSF Boxcar 212625 Bx-12 (1948) A photo from the Denver Public Library: https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/55053/rec/56 Click on the arrows in the upper right hand corner of the photo to enlarge it and scroll to enlarge it further. Car built in 1930. The car height was extended with a new steel panel roof and upper side and end panels during a minor rebuilding program in 1941-1944. Car has a switching tag or card ("52") on the door. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA
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Re: Photo: Rock Island Boxcar 22335 (1952)
The full resolution file:
Thanks!
From: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of "Bob Chaparro via groups.io" <chiefbobbb@...>
Photo: Rock Island Boxcar 22335 (1952) A photo from the Denver Public Library: https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/46500/rec/40 Click on the arrows in the upper right hand corner of the photo to enlarge it and scroll to enlarge it further. Built 1951 by Pullman-Standard. Note "New Roof" stencil at upper right hand corner. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA
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Re: 1956 ORER has been sold
Armand Premo
![]() 1956 ORER has been sold. Thank you! HTG
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Re: Seeing individual boards on Single Sheathed cars
np328
Andy,
here is a link to a Rock Island car photographed by John Vashon at the Minneapolis Pillsbury "A" Mill. https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsa.8a04504/ and the photo at a much higher resolution https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/service/pnp/fsa/8a04000/8a04500/8a04504v.jpg Gaps between the boards? To quote Roger Rabbit - Pleeeeeaasse. I'm not sure if it is a mastic oozing out however it is clearly proud of the surface. Not gaps. Railroad house cars have sheathing to protect the commodity, as soon as they gets gaps or are warped to any great degree, the cars become practically worthless and generally speaking shippers would reject them. Jim Dick - Roseville, MN
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Re: Photo: NP Automobile Boxcar 6181 (1934)
np328
Schuyler writes regarding oversize gaps on modeled cars: Are we only talking to ourselves here? The corollary is of course that folks who desire greater fidelity are in part, held captive by these people however well meaning, do not care, none the less make purchases in the margins.
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Re: Photos: "New Roof" Stencil (1945-1946)
np328
Schuyler,
until you called this out I had never noticed this X-bracing either. Of the cars found in this grouping I do not recall seeing a larger image of this car. Looking back again there does not seem to be one that includes a road name. Of the number on the underframe, on the NP a 200xxx number indicates company service, and this car is clearly in general service so not NP. Jim Dick - St. Paul, MN
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Re: Seeing individual boards on Single Sheathed cars
Paul Doggett
The Tichy USRA boxcar really sets the standard for planking on boxcar sides in my humble opinion.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Paul Doggett. England 🏴
On 22 Nov 2020, at 20:38, StephenK <thekays100@...> wrote:
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Re: Seeing individual boards on Single Sheathed cars
StephenK
I agree. Almost all models of single sheath cars have grooves molded in to delineate separate boards, and those grooves are way too large. As Andy says, those "grooves" just don't show in this photo. The don't show up in most photos (and that goes for wooden passenger cars too.). The Accurail single sheathed cars (4200, 4300, and 4500 series) do a much better job here--the casting shows boards at slightly different levels with no grooves between them. As far as I'm concerned, they are the best in the business.
Steve Kay
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Re: Photo: ATSF Boxcar 212625 Bx-12 (1948)
Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Andy, Bob and Friends, One of these cars used to sit in Jack London Square in Oakland, California. It is now in the Niles Canyon Railway in Fremont. Yours Aye, Garth Groff 🦆
On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 1:02 PM Andy Carlson <midcentury@...> wrote:
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Seeing individual boards on Single Sheathed cars
Andy Carlson
Note that coupled to the right of WP 8078 is another 8051 series car. These cars were somewhat unique in that the lumber door was located in the 'B' end. The vertical shaft brake allowed plenty of room, so I suppose other cars of the same era could have been this way as well. One use of photos, such as this one, is in viewing the relative use of good milled wood back then. Flat grain wood was a lesser premium than vertical grain wood, but back in those days the old growth timber commonly used made flat grain wood a much higher quality than the common young growth wood milled today. Notice that the grooves on this elderly car are still quite tight. What delineates the boards is more the opening of the face of the grains due to flat wood's greater vulnerability to weathering. This is something that toolmaking would be challenged to duplicate--I think that this would be better replicated with painting. -Andy Carlson Ojai CA
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Re: Photo: ATSF Boxcar 212625 Bx-12 (1948)
Steve SANDIFER
1910-1931: Mineral Brown – sides, ends, roofs, doors, underframes and trucks on repainted cars. Black – underframes and trucks on new cars, route card boards.
1931-1951 Mineral Brown: sides, ends, and doors, underframes and trucks on repainted cars; wood sheathed roofs, wood running boards, edges of flooring at door openings, roof hatches on convertible stock cars. Black: underframes and trucks on new cars only, route card boards (not on all cars). Black Anti-slip – steel or metal sheathed roofs, steel running boards on repainted cars.
1951-1980 Mineral brown – sides, ends (most cars) and doors; underframes and trucks on repainted cars, wood sheathed roofs, wood running boards, steel running boards (repainted cars); ends of flooring at door openings, roof hatches on convertible stock cars. Black: underframes and trucks (new cars only); route card boards (only in the early 50s, not on all cars). Anti-slip mineral brown: steel or metal-sheathed roofs. Began in 1951 but black or redish brown granules continued to be used on some cars for several years. Anti-slip was discontinued in the late 50s/early 60s because trainmen seldom rode the car tops when in movement.
1940-47 – Santa Fe System Maps 1947-58 – Ship & Travel
Through 1937: A.T.&S.F. 1938-1943 : A.T.S.F 1944+: ATSF
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of WILLIAM PARDIE
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2020 12:55 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: ATSF Boxcar 212625 Bx-12 (1948)
There are many Santa Fe experts that can confirm this but I have felt that the black roofs came into play around the mid 40's. I have builders photos of the war emergency box car with rhe mineral brown roof.
Bill Pardie
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message -------- From: Scott <repairman87@...> Date: 11/22/20 7:57 AM (GMT-10:00) Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: ATSF Boxcar 212625 Bx-12 (1948)
Well, this one has a mineral red roof on it and a 1948 re-weigh. I guess I have been painting them wrong all this time which is disappointing. I thought they still had black roofs then. Certainly make painting then easier I suppose.
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Missouri & North Arkansas Boxcar
Jim Gates
This is a very poor resolution photograph:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12293485546/in/photostream/ But is that part of a Missouri & North Arkansas boxcar on the right? Jim Gates
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Re: Photo: NP Automobile Boxcar 6181 (1934)
Schuyler Larrabee
Yeah, that car too . . .
And that after this list’s members have discussed and discussed and plain ol’ cussed the oversize gaps in most DS wood car sides. Are we only talking to ourselves here?
Schuyler
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Andy Carlson
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 1:35 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: NP Automobile Boxcar 6181 (1934)
And not just single sheathed cars. Compare the HO and real close ups of DS cars from my attachments.
-Andy Carlson Ojai CA
On Saturday, November 21, 2020, 10:26:54 AM PST, Claus Schlund \ > wrote:
Hi Schuyler and List members,
Maybe this tells us something about how our single sheathed models should look?!?
Claus Schlund
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Re: Photo: NP Automobile Boxcar 6181 (1934)
Schuyler Larrabee
Something I’ve thought for a long time. I mean, the Accurail car with the extreme wood grain is great, but also so identifiable as “another one of those models,” as to be boring after a while (Sorry, Dennis).
Schuyler
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2020 1:27 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: NP Automobile Boxcar 6181 (1934)
Hi Schuyler and List members,
Maybe this tells us something about how our single sheathed models should look?!?
Claus Schlund
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Re: Photo: ATSF Boxcar 212625 Bx-12 (1948)
Jack Mullen
I also think this is a black roof. There's a significant contrast between the tone of the vertical side extension and the overlapping edge of the roof panels. The contrast is pretty clear on the left half of the car, but obscured by light colored weathering to the right of the door.
Jack Mullen
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Re: Photo: ATSF Boxcar 212625 Bx-12 (1948)
Steve SANDIFER
I don’t know that this photo tells us what color the roof is. The official date where roofs began to be painted mineral brown was 1951, but some continued to be repainted black for another year or two.
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2020 11:58 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: ATSF Boxcar 212625 Bx-12 (1948)
Well, this one has a mineral red roof on it and a 1948 re-weigh. I guess I have been painting them wrong all this time which is disappointing. I thought they still had black roofs then. Certainly make painting then easier I suppose.
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