Date   

Re: C&I Hopper

Ray Breyer
 

In contemporary railroad engineering terms, that's a steel frame, outside framed boxcar (what they called these cars when built in the 1909-1916 period when most of them were built).

In HOBBY terms, these are either called Fowlers or Dominion cars, depending on which side of the icy borderlands you're from. (odd thing about the Dominion name; most of these cars were built by CC&F, but nobody calls them that....)

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



On Sunday, November 29, 2020, 04:20:24 PM CST, vincent altiere via groups.io <steel77086@...> wrote:


Is that  Fowler boxcar ??

Vince Altiere


-----Original Message-----
From: vapeurchapelon <j.markwart@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Nov 29, 2020 11:17 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] C&I Hopper

Wow, what a photo! And at the far right there are two people thoughtless directly under the flying box car...
 
Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 28. November 2020 um 17:47 Uhr
Von: "Eric Hansmann" <eric@...>
An: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [RealSTMFC] C&I Hopper
Those C&I hoppers have been travelling for years. Here’s one in an Andover, MA, wreck, circa 1929.
 
 
Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN
 
 
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2020 5:42 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] C&I Hopper
 
Friends,
 
While rambling through my collection, I came upon this view of Cambria & Indiana hopper 1888. Oddly, this was taken in Charlottesville, Virginia, on the C&O (well, really CSX by then), probably in late 1984. What a car from a 35-mile Pennsylvania shortline was doing in a C&O train is beyond me.
 
In those days, the former C&O Mountain Division saw many trains each way. Trains stopped on the west side of town before moving into the small yard. This happened to be right behind the computer store where I worked, so I often got a good view of cars, though few photos. 
 
This car series is not listed in my October 1958 ORER, so I suspect it was a second-hand purchase, possibly beyond our era of interest, though the car itself certainly dates to our period.
 
Yours Aye,
 
 
Garth Groff
 
 
 


Re: Pacific Fruit Express Data Boxes

Tony Thompson
 

Mark Vinski wrote:

"William is right, beat me to it. There are two boxes but they were used in sequence,, oldest one replaced with every repack"
Tony Thompson

So does that mean that there are two repacking data sets present on the car after the initial one? Or do they paint out the old set and then have a place to stencil the new set without having to wait for the paint to dry? That seems to be what the center picture shows.

    I hadn't thought about it this way, but I think Mark is right about the intention; however, almost every photo I have of cars in service shows only the top box in use. The second box was intended as a convenience, according to my interviews with retired PFE people, but perhaps most workers doing such a stencil were used to making a paint patch, then stencil, and thus continued to use the upper box only.

Tony Thompson




Re: Pacific Fruit Express Data Boxes

Mark Vinski
 

"William is right, beat me to it. There are two boxes but they were used in sequence,, oldest one replaced with every repack"
Tony Thompson

So does that mean that there are two repacking data sets present on the car after the initial one? Or do they paint out the old set and then have a place to stencil the new set without having to wait for the paint to dry? That seems to be what the center picture shows.

Mark Vinski


Re: Car ID just for fun

Jim and Barbara van Gaasbeek
 

I just tried it (Sunday, 11/29, 4:28 PDT) and got down to the third menu, tried a specific issue and got the “"Error establishing a data base connection"

 

Jim van Gaasbeek

Irvine, CA

 

 


Re: C&NW colors uploaded

gary laakso
 

Oops, forgot my name as Bailey the Bengal tapped the iPadd.

Gary Laakso
Northwest of Mike Brock


On Nov 29, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Gary <vasa0vasa@...> wrote:

Part One of Jeffrey Koehler article in the May, 2005 issue of Mainline Modeler on page 43 stated ...”The North Western’s 11-panel gondolas were painted in the company’s standard freight car color (a fairly bright oxide red) with white lettering and black/white heralds.”  


On Nov 29, 2020, at 3:53 PM, Ken Adams <smadanek44g@...> wrote:


Tim O'Conner et all

This was found on a search the files for STMFC. 

I am in the process of enhancing an Accurail AAR 41 foot gondola into a reasonable facsimile of a CNW 130701-131600 1948 build car but found that the old yahoo groups STMF Files/Colors/cnw1-9 jpg's do  not appear to have made the transition to groups.io either as files or photos. It does not appear to be on the old STMFC website either. 

Any suggestions for prototype color photos are needed as I am trying to determine what shade of Vallejo Model Color brown to wash over a Tamiya oxide primer base to reasonably produce a CNW Freight Car brown as it would appear when the car is about 2-6 years old.  Note that I do not use an air brush so TCP paints or other air brush application required paints are of no use to me. 

The car body is currently primed but I am waiting for Ted Culotta's CNW gondola decals and Molocco Barber S-2 trucks to arrive. 
--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io


Re: C&NW colors uploaded

gary laakso
 

Part One of Jeffrey Koehler article in the May, 2005 issue of Mainline Modeler on page 43 stated ...”The North Western’s 11-panel gondolas were painted in the company’s standard freight car color (a fairly bright oxide red) with white lettering and black/white heralds.”  


On Nov 29, 2020, at 3:53 PM, Ken Adams <smadanek44g@...> wrote:


Tim O'Conner et all

This was found on a search the files for STMFC. 

I am in the process of enhancing an Accurail AAR 41 foot gondola into a reasonable facsimile of a CNW 130701-131600 1948 build car but found that the old yahoo groups STMF Files/Colors/cnw1-9 jpg's do  not appear to have made the transition to groups.io either as files or photos. It does not appear to be on the old STMFC website either. 

Any suggestions for prototype color photos are needed as I am trying to determine what shade of Vallejo Model Color brown to wash over a Tamiya oxide primer base to reasonably produce a CNW Freight Car brown as it would appear when the car is about 2-6 years old.  Note that I do not use an air brush so TCP paints or other air brush application required paints are of no use to me. 

The car body is currently primed but I am waiting for Ted Culotta's CNW gondola decals and Molocco Barber S-2 trucks to arrive. 
--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io


Re: C&I Hopper

Brian Carlson
 

your understanding of boxcars, gons and flats is incorrect. 

Certain industries had boxcar pooling agreements where railroads contributed a percentage of cars  but in the life of this list it was a later development.  

Boxcars and to a certain extent flats did operate nationwide basis based on their percentages.  But it wasn’t spelled out by the ARA or AAR. 

World war years were different of course. 

Lists of information in the list archives if you search. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Nov 29, 2020, at 6:36 PM, George Courtney via groups.io <gsc3@...> wrote:

In Ed Wolfe's book on the small, Appalachian railroad, the Interstate, he mentioned they tracked off line cars and some were months in returning.  They had to threaten the B&O who was  the worse for using Interstate hoppers in their area.  Interstate hoppers went north to piers on the great lakes.  Oddly, i have seen a 1953 photo of a Lehigh Valley twin hopper wrecked on the Interstate.  In the early days of this hobby. both Al Kalmbach and Bruce Chubb, following Al,  put out the commonsense, but inaccurate idea that cars did not travel far from home.   If a customer had an order for a hundred cars of coal and the railroad only had 90 cars, it would have been bad business practice to not use 10 foreign hoppers on your line and available.  Or you could inform the customer he would have to wait while you sent the extra foreign road cars home because you could not use them.  Perhaps a misunderstanding on my part, but I thought each ARA railroad had to contribute their share of whatever kind of regular car to the national pool for boxcars and gons and flats. If your railroad did 8% of the boxcar business, then the ARA expected you to built and contribute 8% of the boxcars which could go anywhere.  Back on topic, I've seen DVD's of the N&W moving blocks of Interstate hoppers to their docks in Norfolk.



George Courtney


Re: C&NW colors uploaded

Ken Adams
 


Tim O'Conner et all

This was found on a search the files for STMFC. 

I am in the process of enhancing an Accurail AAR 41 foot gondola into a reasonable facsimile of a CNW 130701-131600 1948 build car but found that the old yahoo groups STMF Files/Colors/cnw1-9 jpg's do  not appear to have made the transition to groups.io either as files or photos. It does not appear to be on the old STMFC website either. 

Any suggestions for prototype color photos are needed as I am trying to determine what shade of Vallejo Model Color brown to wash over a Tamiya oxide primer base to reasonably produce a CNW Freight Car brown as it would appear when the car is about 2-6 years old.  Note that I do not use an air brush so TCP paints or other air brush application required paints are of no use to me. 

The car body is currently primed but I am waiting for Ted Culotta's CNW gondola decals and Molocco Barber S-2 trucks to arrive. 
--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io


Re: C&I Hopper

George Courtney
 

In Ed Wolfe's book on the small, Appalachian railroad, the Interstate, he mentioned they tracked off line cars and some were months in returning.  They had to threaten the B&O who was  the worse for using Interstate hoppers in their area.  Interstate hoppers went north to piers on the great lakes.  Oddly, i have seen a 1953 photo of a Lehigh Valley twin hopper wrecked on the Interstate.  In the early days of this hobby. both Al Kalmbach and Bruce Chubb, following Al,  put out the commonsense, but inaccurate idea that cars did not travel far from home.   If a customer had an order for a hundred cars of coal and the railroad only had 90 cars, it would have been bad business practice to not use 10 foreign hoppers on your line and available.  Or you could inform the customer he would have to wait while you sent the extra foreign road cars home because you could not use them.  Perhaps a misunderstanding on my part, but I thought each ARA railroad had to contribute their share of whatever kind of regular car to the national pool for boxcars and gons and flats. If your railroad did 8% of the boxcar business, then the ARA expected you to built and contribute 8% of the boxcars which could go anywhere.  Back on topic, I've seen DVD's of the N&W moving blocks of Interstate hoppers to their docks in Norfolk.



George Courtney


Re: C&I Hopper

Eric Hansmann
 

I would say it’s a Fowler boxcar. 

Some argue otherwise. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


On Nov 29, 2020, at 4:20 PM, vincent altiere via groups.io <steel77086@...> wrote:

Is that  Fowler boxcar ??

Vince Altiere


Re: C&I Hopper

vincent altiere
 

Is that  Fowler boxcar ??

Vince Altiere


-----Original Message-----
From: vapeurchapelon <j.markwart@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Sun, Nov 29, 2020 11:17 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] C&I Hopper

Wow, what a photo! And at the far right there are two people thoughtless directly under the flying box car...
 
Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 28. November 2020 um 17:47 Uhr
Von: "Eric Hansmann" <eric@...>
An: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [RealSTMFC] C&I Hopper
Those C&I hoppers have been travelling for years. Here’s one in an Andover, MA, wreck, circa 1929.
 
 
Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN
 
 
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2020 5:42 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] C&I Hopper
 
Friends,
 
While rambling through my collection, I came upon this view of Cambria & Indiana hopper 1888. Oddly, this was taken in Charlottesville, Virginia, on the C&O (well, really CSX by then), probably in late 1984. What a car from a 35-mile Pennsylvania shortline was doing in a C&O train is beyond me.
 
In those days, the former C&O Mountain Division saw many trains each way. Trains stopped on the west side of town before moving into the small yard. This happened to be right behind the computer store where I worked, so I often got a good view of cars, though few photos. 
 
This car series is not listed in my October 1958 ORER, so I suspect it was a second-hand purchase, possibly beyond our era of interest, though the car itself certainly dates to our period.
 
Yours Aye,
 
 
Garth Groff
 
 
 


Photos: Richter Vinegar Company Cars

Bob Chaparro
 


Plastic models for sale

Clark Propst
 

I used to post sales of plastic models that I'd deliver to ChicagoLand/Naperville to save the buyer shipping, but that ain't happening...
So, I have three tank cars and two reefers I would like to sell. I’m pricing them at RTR prices nowadays.
Two heavily modified P2K DX 10K tank cars
one ATLX (Armour) heavily modified P2K 8K tank car
One Red Caboose PFE wood WP reefer, renumbered weather
One Intermountain PFE steel reefer, weathered
All have Kadee 158 pinless couplers, can change to #5s with pins.
 
Please contact me off list. Will send photos to seriously interested parties.


Re: C&I Hopper

Eric Hansmann
 

Here’s a companion photo that includes another Reading hopper.

https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:6682x814c

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of vapeurchapelon
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 10:17 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] C&I Hopper

 

Wow, what a photo! And at the far right there are two people thoughtless directly under the flying box car...

 

Johannes

Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953

 


eBay items

Clark Propst
 


Re: C&I Hopper

vapeurchapelon
 

Wow, what a photo! And at the far right there are two people thoughtless directly under the flying box car...
 
Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 28. November 2020 um 17:47 Uhr
Von: "Eric Hansmann" <eric@...>
An: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [RealSTMFC] C&I Hopper

Those C&I hoppers have been travelling for years. Here’s one in an Andover, MA, wreck, circa 1929.

https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:6682x954j

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2020 5:42 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] C&I Hopper

 

Friends,

 

While rambling through my collection, I came upon this view of Cambria & Indiana hopper 1888. Oddly, this was taken in Charlottesville, Virginia, on the C&O (well, really CSX by then), probably in late 1984. What a car from a 35-mile Pennsylvania shortline was doing in a C&O train is beyond me.

 

In those days, the former C&O Mountain Division saw many trains each way. Trains stopped on the west side of town before moving into the small yard. This happened to be right behind the computer store where I worked, so I often got a good view of cars, though few photos. 

 

This car series is not listed in my October 1958 ORER, so I suspect it was a second-hand purchase, possibly beyond our era of interest, though the car itself certainly dates to our period.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff

 

 

 


Re: Photo: SP Livestock Car 74207

Steve SANDIFER
 

I believe they just looked for a photo of any stock car to stick in the article. I think the car is in a scrap line. It certainly would be refused for loading.

Steve Sandifer

On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 10:57 PM, Bob Chaparro via groups.io
<chiefbobbb@...> wrote:
A question from Paul Deis:
Would that car be bad ordered for missing board on side? 
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: SP Livestock Car 74207

Bruce Smith
 

Folks

I am curious about that as well. The photo appears to have been taken on a RIP track or storage track (note the passenger car coupled behind). While that particular board is high enough up that it shouldn't pose a problem, I wouldn't be surprised if it were enough for an interchaning railroad to refuse interchange.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...>
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2020 10:57 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: SP Livestock Car 74207
 
A question from Paul Deis:
Would that car be bad ordered for missing board on side? 
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: SP Livestock Car 74207

Bob Chaparro
 

A question from Paul Deis:
Would that car be bad ordered for missing board on side? 
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: New Release: Tangent Scale Models GATC 8,000 Gallon Insulated 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

Steve and Barb Hile
 

The two major disasters I was thinking about both involved casinghead gasoline.  One was in September 1915 in Ardmore, Oklahoma where more than 40 were killed and much of the downtown was destroyed.  The other was in Memphis in April 1921.  The results led to ways to empty casinghead gasoline without allowing the fumes to escape.

 

Thanks, Dave, for expanding on these things.

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dave Parker via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2020 8:03 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] New Release: Tangent Scale Models GATC 8,000 Gallon Insulated 1917-Design Radial Course Tank Car

 

I sort of agree with Steve here, and sort of don't.  Focusing on the ICC regs (and ARA car classes) that bracket the presumptive build date (1922) of these NTCX TMI cars, I would offer the following:

1.  Not all TMI cars were Class IV (ICC 104) cars; there were insulated Class III/ICC 103 cars as well.  I have not discerned any way to tell them apart unless the photo is sharp enough to be able to read the ARA/ICC car class in the stencil to the right of center on the car side.

2.  Regardless of car class, a great many insulated cars also had steam heater coils, suggesting that at least their primary purpose was hauling viscous commodities rather than highly volatile inflammables.

3.  Also regardless of class, TMI cars were not that numerous, at least in the 1920s.  In my 1930 ORER, TMI cars comprise <3% of the UTLX fleet, and about 5% of the Sinclair fleet.

4. In the 1920 ARA tank cars specs, the only example commodity mentioned in connection with the Class IV cars is casinghead gasoline.  Note that Class 5 cars were also coming on-line at this time for specific (and dangerous) cargoes such as liquid chlorine and sulfur dioxide.  Later on, ethyl chloride starts to appears as a commodity mentioned in the context of Class IV cars.

5.  By 1923, the ICC had very detailed specifications for calculating the needed "outage" for volatile inflammables, including methanol, ethanol, acetone, and gasoline/naptha (the last broken down by density using the API scale).  These could all be carried in Class III/ICC 103 cars as long as sufficient headspace was provided to allow for expansion. That outage volume depended on the loading temperature and the coefficient of expansion of the particular commodity.

6.  That expansion volume might be provided by the dome alone but, if inadequate, the shell had to be filled less than level full.  Each car design had an outage table that showed how much additional head space was gained for each inch below level-full.

7.  For convenience, many owners started buying cars with domes greater than the 2.0% required for all Class III cars and, in my experience, domes right at 2% are more the exception than the rule.  Cars built in 1920s routinely had dome volumes of 2.3 to 3.0%, and 3.5+% cars are easy to find.

Bottom line:  the use of Class IV cars, while certainly permissible, wasn't necessary for routine hauling of refined gasoline, regardless of season (ANAICT).  It might have been more common with particularly "light" blends or components because of their greater volatility, but that's a guess.  

PS:  The primary difference between the Class III and IV cars that jumps out at me is the required pressure test for the tank:  60 psi for Class III versus 75 for Class IV.  The safety valves were to be set at the same 25 +/- 3 psi.

That's my take with my 1920s perspective -- other viewpoints and information are of course welcome.

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

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