Date   

Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Friends,

How about these scribbles? At least they were done in chalk and not spray paint.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 12:28 PM Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...> wrote:
Chuck Cover asked:
"I am wondering if anyone can tell me how common chalk marks actually were?  I know there are some prototype photos with clear chalk marks, however, are they the exception or the norm?  What percentage of our models should have chalk marks?  Are chalk marks most common on box cars?"

To answer:
1. The norm.
2. Virtually all cars, with increasing number of marks between repaints as old marks remained on the car and were gradually obliterated over time.  Only a brand new car fresh out of the shop or builder would lack them.
3. All types of cars would have them.


Ben Hom


Re: Okay You Gondola Devotees

Richard Townsend
 

I think what you are seeing is the side sheathing angling in toward the center of the car, not cut out holes. You can see that on the inside of the car relative to the opposite side.


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Tim O'Connor
 

Chuck

Michael Gross's model here showing a mixture of chalk ages and colors, which was completely typical

And a Reading gondola shows chalk marks of different ages overlapping each other, also typical


On 12/2/2020 12:28 PM, Benjamin Hom wrote:
Chuck Cover asked:
"I am wondering if anyone can tell me how common chalk marks actually were?  I know there are some prototype photos with clear chalk marks, however, are they the exception or the norm?  What percentage of our models should have chalk marks?  Are chalk marks most common on box cars?"

To answer:
1. The norm.
2. Virtually all cars, with increasing number of marks between repaints as old marks remained on the car and were gradually obliterated over time.  Only a brand new car fresh out of the shop or builder would lack them.
3. All types of cars would have them.


Ben Hom


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Okay You Gondola Devotees

gary laakso
 

While the company service tank cars and the DRGW 4-8-4 are extra eye candy, the DGRW gondola in the foreground on the left is the subject of this question.  What are the cut holes on the side of the car for?  I have not seen that feature in a gondola before.  Note too, the gusset plates cover part of the inside of the car, not just the top of the end and side.   The car also has wonderful residue of gunk in it that has not been cleaned out.

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1947-Jan-Salt-Lake-City/i-DsQZffL/A 

 

Gary “I know the Grande did things differently” Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Steve SANDIFER
 

Also remember that this is chalk, and it washes off and in many photos is light or smeared in appearance – a plus for pencil vs. ink.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chuck Cover
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 11:19 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Another means of adding chalk markings

 

I am wondering if anyone can tell me how common chalk marks actually were?  I know there are some prototype photos with clear chalk marks, however, are they the exception or the norm?  What percentage of our models should have chalk marks?  Are chalk marks most common on box cars?

 

Thanks

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Benjamin Hom
 

Chuck Cover asked:
"I am wondering if anyone can tell me how common chalk marks actually were?  I know there are some prototype photos with clear chalk marks, however, are they the exception or the norm?  What percentage of our models should have chalk marks?  Are chalk marks most common on box cars?"

To answer:
1. The norm.
2. Virtually all cars, with increasing number of marks between repaints as old marks remained on the car and were gradually obliterated over time.  Only a brand new car fresh out of the shop or builder would lack them.
3. All types of cars would have them.


Ben Hom


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Chuck Cover
 

I am wondering if anyone can tell me how common chalk marks actually were?  I know there are some prototype photos with clear chalk marks, however, are they the exception or the norm?  What percentage of our models should have chalk marks?  Are chalk marks most common on box cars?

 

Thanks

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM


Re: A list of square corner '37 AAR box cars

Michael Gross
 

Looking very good, Frank!
--
Michael Gross
Pasadena, CA


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Michael Gross
 

Looks very good!
--
Michael Gross
Pasadena, CA


Re: Allan Seebach

Benjamin Hom
 

Pierre Oliver asked:
"Would Allan Seebach of Tappan NY, please contact me offlist. Or if anyone knows him , please forward this to him."

Sadly, he's another model railroad community casualty of COVID-19 and passed back in April.


Ben Hom


Etched brass parts was Re: [RealSTMFC] Frisco “Sawtooth” boxcar photo

Bruce Smith
 

Folks,

Note that Moloco does make these in plastic.

The running board supports on the rooftop would appear to be pretty easy to make, until you think about it... How would you attach them to the roof? I suppose that a squared off "C" would work with the bottom glued to the roof and the top to the running boards. Note that the bottom contour would be an issue, with alternatives needed for radial and peaked roofs and then let's not even get into the different proprietary roofs such as the PRR's two different roof profiles on the X31/32/33 series of cars. For a radial roof, you are SOL, but you could address this for peaked roofs by making the bottom into two tabs with bend lines on an angle to match the roof peak. Bending them would be pretty easy.

While we're talking brass parts, the Pullman side sill tabs, with their distinctive vertical parts would also be a neat idea. They are available in resin from National Scale car, but again, to be accurate, they shouldn't be thick. They should be "C" shaped with the cross bearers and cross ties fitted into the "C".

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Guy Wilber via groups.io <guycwilber@...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 10:33 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Frisco “Sawtooth” boxcar photo
 
R. J. Dial wrote:

“YMW has the lateral supports, that should help Marty. I was referring to the longitudinal running board supports ("saddles" is the industry term on drawings).”

As “Latitudinal Running Board” is the official term used by The MCBA, ARA and AAR.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada






Re: Frisco “Sawtooth” boxcar photo

Guy Wilber
 

R. J. Dial wrote:

“YMW has the lateral supports, that should help Marty. I was referring to the longitudinal running board supports ("saddles" is the industry term on drawings).”

As “Latitudinal Running Board” is the official term used by The MCBA, ARA and AAR.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


Re: Frisco “Sawtooth” boxcar photo

radiodial868
 

YMW has the lateral supports, that should help Marty. I was referring to the longitudinal running board supports ("saddles" is the industry term on drawings).


-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Allan Seebach

Pierre Oliver
 

Would Allan Seebach of Tappan NY, please contact me offlist.
Or if anyone knows him , please forward this to him
Thanks

--
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Tim O'Connor
 


I have used the Gelly Roll pens for years. 05 is the smallest size. I think the larger size looks
better on loads of steel plate for example. I bought them at Michael's and on Amazon.


On 12/2/2020 9:42 AM, Charlie Duckworth wrote:
Bob
not yet, I’ll airbrush a flat coat over them and let you know.  I also want to see how to remove them. 
--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: EJ&E twin hoppers

Tim O'Connor
 


built in 1940, then


On 12/1/2020 8:01 PM, Rich C via groups.io wrote:
These cars were actually built as offset hoppers in 1953 series 41000-41699. Don't know when they were rebuilt to ribside twins.

Rich Christie

On Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 02:52:14 PM CST, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



I think they were built in 1940. No models in HO but you might be able to bash from a Stewart 3 bay or two.


On 11/30/2020 11:55 PM, Richard Townsend via groups.io wrote:
This photo, taken in Longmont, Colorado, has an EJ&E twin hopper in the background, adding more to the mentions of roaming hoppers:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Great-Western-Sugar-Co-Steam-Engine-0-4-0-T-Negative-Longmont-CO-1968/153919429158?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
Can anyone provide some information on these hoppers? Who built them and when? Is there a model in HO that would at least approximate them? Is there a source of appropriate decals, assuming a suitable model could be found?

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Charlie Duckworth
 

Bob
not yet, I’ll airbrush a flat coat over them and let you know.  I also want to see how to remove them. 
--
Charlie Duckworth 
Omaha, Ne.


Re: A list of square corner '37 AAR box cars

pennsylvania1954
 

Andy has done us a service compiling this '37 square corner info here. As a reminder for the old hands and good info for newer members, the Steam Era Freight Cars website http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/ contains a treasure trove of info, including '37 AAR boxcar info in a data base compiled by Ed Hawkins. See
http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/prototype/frtcars/1937aarmain.html
--
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


Sorry for not placing the correct address

Andy Carlson
 

I am guilty of not checking my emails before sending.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Wood sheathing, reasons for differential weathering

Andy Carlson
 

There has been some disscusion on weathering wood on single sheathed box cars and I felt that quite a few folks were not too knowing of the effect of wood to the weathering differences. This is what i wrote:


Hi-
My interest in lumber has led me to examine photos of single sheathed freight cars in a critical way. Unlike double sheathed cars, single sheathed cars usually did not have tongue & Groove edges while double sheathed not only had the T&G edges, they were commonly milled with a 'V' along the board's edge giving the characteristic finished look so attractive on both freight cars and passenger cars.

Logs milled into lumber start out as cylindrical and are sawn into flat panels where individual boards are sliced from. Depending on the location of this sawing relative to the circular ring pattern of the log, it will create different styles of finished lumber. Where the rings, as viewed from the board's edge, stand vertical that is called 'vertical grain' or quarter sawn. Boards with the ring grains running horizontally from side to side is called 'flat sawn'.

Understanding the reasons for the existence of tree rings in lumber is helpful in seeing the weathering differences found in ageing milled lumber. Each ring zone in a tree is from a single season of growth, particularly in temperate forests. The broader area is from spring growth and is the most rapid growth the trees will have in a season. This portion of wood growth is called "spring wood'. After this fast growth, the the slower growth of summer is much denser but also much slower in growth producing the dark ring which is called 'summer growth'. Summer growth is both denser and narrower and the denseness makes it the strongest portion of a log. The much faster growth of the spring wood is less dense and is therefore of less strength. The favorite lumber to mill into T&G was from old growth trees, where the darker forest from all of the neighboring trees blocking much of the light made for a lot of the year's tree growth to be somewhat minimal. This slower growth made for a much higher percentage of summer wood and any old carpenter will tell you that kind of lumber is the best, especially when quarter sawn into vertical grain wood.

Returning to the differences of flat and vertical grain sawed lumber; if the boards are cut from the flat grain area of a slab at the mill the face of the boards will have the characteristic look of ovals and wavy lines, which is what is seen of the rings as they are exposed to the cut lumber. Remember that the spring wood is less strong and that the face of the flat grain on a board will have that board exposed to the weather with the higher % of weaker wood. I like to call attention to wood fence posts. Commonly beveled at the top to reduce the pooling of standing water, accelerating rot, the tops of these boards clearly show the ring structure in the horizontal and circular view. After a few years, you will see that the areas within the rings will retreat downwards due to the softer spring wood's less resistance to rot. This same principle is at work on milled freight car siding. Since the commonly milling methods produce a mix of flat grain and vertical grain boards it was not uncommon for sheathing boards to also be a mix of mill cuts. Nowadays, many of the more premium boards are pulled out of the green chain to be sold at a premium due to their recognized better quality.

So a freshly sheathed SS car will usually have a mix of these boards and after a few years, the boards with faces of predominantly flat grain (spring wood) will decay noticeably faster. I have a sample photo of an older single sheathed car, a WP 40' box car in the 15001-16000 series.
Inline image

The difference between the boards with the paint intact vs. the boards with silvering weathering where the paint has flaked off is striking. The boards which are in between flat grain and vertical grain have ring patterns varying from within the two extremes and will have a variable amount of face spring wood and will show slower rotting of the flat grain wood but faster rot than the vertical grain boards.

Notice that these boards are truly aging, but the tightness of the boards to each other remains pretty good. No leaks from sand or wheat which will pour out.

In the history in this hobby of recreating freight cars in the form of models has shown the steady reduction of the very deep and wide grooves manufacturers used to delineate the individual boards. Some experiments have making the boards of different thicknesses, such as Tichy cars with boards that stand both outwards and inwards relative to each other. As shown in this closeup picture these boards do not show this kind of board differential at all.

As for how do we emulate the style visible in the photo for our miniatures? I am being more convinced that subtle groove lines coupled with differential painting is the way to more closely achieve this look. If I weren't so slow (lazy) I would be doing some painting experiments.

You all please stay safe and do well,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

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