Date   

Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Andy Cich
 

The attached image is a page from a Pennsylvania Railroad Chicago Switching District instruction manual dated January 1, 1952,

 

Would the marks described be visible as “chalk marks”? Or would the described marks be too small to see on a model?

 

 

Andy Cich

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 3:33 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Another means of adding chalk markings

 


Re: Okay You Gondola Devotees

akerboomk
 

Same general principle as an offset side hopper


--
Ken Akerboom


Re: Okay You Gondola Devotees

Corey Bonsall
 

<cracks knuckles>

To start with, those are either the big 70k series (46ft IL, b 1922) or it's little cousin 45k series (42ft IL, b 1926) offset gondolas.  Built a bit different (and larger) than almost any other GS gondola of the period.

The low angle lighting, coupled with the traditional wintertime inversion smog of the SLC valley makes those shadows look like a feature or a hole, but if they were, I think we would see a different shade.

Regarding the top feature:  think about how an offset hopper of the same era has the added pressed steel stampings at the top of the bulge of the car outside, in order to continue the stress member rib from the inside of the car to the outside on it's way up to the top rail.  This is the same thing, although much shorter.  These cars had the sides come in towards the center for the last 6 inches or so of height, and needed something to connect the width of the top rail to the inside support rib, in this case a pressed Z shape ,with all of the mind-smashing angles to allow pass-through rivets to connect it all together and make a solid load-supporting member.

All of the early D&RGW GS Gons (36ft 40000-42500, 40ft 43000-43349, 42ft 45000-45499, and 46ft 70000-70699) had interior ribs; the 36ft & 40ft had 3, the 42ft & 46ft offset had 7 ribs per side.  The little cousin 36ft 40k series up in the right hand corner looks like it has one for each exterior rib, because the 10 inch wooden extension boards to increase cubic capacity needed something added to tie it back into the main structure.

And the top corner gussets?  It seems to be hit or miss on a lot of the drop bottom cars I've seen, but considering the inside ribs would make loading anything other than loose loads a challenge (can't stack crates or mill products the full width), that overhang isn't really eating any cubic space above it, and might give the corner some added tension strength if cramming it full of something dense and somewhat fluid.

My two cents, considering the time I've spent studying on those glorious battleships...

Corey Bonsall


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Bob Chaparro
 

I experimented with various marking tools for making white chalk marks in HO scale, using two fine point paint markers and three pencils:

  • Sharpie paint marker
  • Pen-touch paint marker
  • General charcoal white pencil
  • Prismacolor Verithin pencil
  • Supracolor II Soft pencil

Generally, these are available at Michael's, Aaron Brothers and Dick Blick stores or through their websites.

I found the pencils easier to use than the paint markers and they did a better job of simulating chalk marks. The point of the General charcoal white pencil tended to crumble a bit so my recommendations are limited to the Prismacolor Verithin pencil and the Supracolor II Soft pencil.

I previously compared the Prismacolor Verithin pencil to a regular Prismacolor pencil and found the Verithin pencil gave better results so be sure to look for the Verithin version of that pencil brand.

The marks were easily removed within five minutes using isopropyl rubbing alcohol and a cotton swab, so mistakes are easily eliminated.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Douglas Harding
 

In the days of computers, perhaps no chalk marks. In the late 40s, chalk marks everywhere. When looking at pictures we need to keep era in mind. Too many times we are looking at modern era photos when attempting to model a time gone by.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 3:23 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Another means of adding chalk markings

 

Hi all,
  Weren't chalk marks used for "local routing" such as from a yard to an
industry or from one track to another during yard sorts?
  Many of you are saying "very common" - I don't dispute that ... but
there are lots of pics of freight cars without any marks on them (that
are visible?).  I suspect 'local weather' would have a bearing on this
topic - and time of year ... ???  L.A. would be different than Seattle?

  At least one person has asked "how many of our cars should have
them?" ... I don't think "almost all" is the right answer - for instance
if a cut of cars was dropped off in a yard and the entire cut was
going to some other place as a "block" then it would get (at most?)
one or two cars with recent chalk marks.

  How do you feel about a number like 50%?  More?  Less?
                                                                                                   - Jim


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Jim Betz
 

Hi all,
  Weren't chalk marks used for "local routing" such as from a yard to an
industry or from one track to another during yard sorts?
  Many of you are saying "very common" - I don't dispute that ... but
there are lots of pics of freight cars without any marks on them (that
are visible?).  I suspect 'local weather' would have a bearing on this
topic - and time of year ... ???  L.A. would be different than Seattle?

  At least one person has asked "how many of our cars should have
them?" ... I don't think "almost all" is the right answer - for instance
if a cut of cars was dropped off in a yard and the entire cut was
going to some other place as a "block" then it would get (at most?)
one or two cars with recent chalk marks.

  How do you feel about a number like 50%?  More?  Less?
                                                                                                   - Jim


Re: F/S: 80+ HO locomotives

Chuck Cover
 

Sorry guys, I screwed up again.

 

_._,_._,_


Re: F/S: 80+ HO locomotives

Chuck Cover
 

Hi Hugh,

 

Please send me the list.  Thanks

 

Chuck

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Hugh Guillaume via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 2:03 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] F/S: 80+ HO locomotives

 

F/S: 80+ new HO locomotives, all are late steam/early diesel era, to receive list send e-mail to me at: mguill1224 at aol dot com  Do not reply to this post.  HTG


Re: Okay You Gondola Devotees

Douglas Harding
 

That is a drop bottom gon. Some of the doors are open inside. And the bottom of the sides slope inward. There is a structural brace running along the side below the side

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of gary laakso
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 11:58 AM
To: 'stmfc' <realstmfc@groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Okay You Gondola Devotees

 

While the company service tank cars and the DRGW 4-8-4 are extra eye candy, the DGRW gondola in the foreground on the left is the subject of this question.  What are the cut holes on the side of the car for?  I have not seen that feature in a gondola before.  Note too, the gusset plates cover part of the inside of the car, not just the top of the end and side.   The car also has wonderful residue of gunk in it that has not been cleaned out.

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1947-Jan-Salt-Lake-City/i-DsQZffL/A 

 

Gary “I know the Grande did things differently” Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock


Re: EJ&E twin hoppers

Rich C
 

You are correct, Tim. My info came from the RPI site. I may have misread it or their info is incorrect. Maybe 1953 was the rebuild year for the ribs? There was info sometime back on the EJ&E photo and info site, but that has been going through reorganization.

Rich Christie

On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 09:41:19 AM CST, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



built in 1940, then


On 12/1/2020 8:01 PM, Rich C via groups.io wrote:
These cars were actually built as offset hoppers in 1953 series 41000-41699. Don't know when they were rebuilt to ribside twins.

Rich Christie

On Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 02:52:14 PM CST, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



I think they were built in 1940. No models in HO but you might be able to bash from a Stewart 3 bay or two.


On 11/30/2020 11:55 PM, Richard Townsend via groups.io wrote:
This photo, taken in Longmont, Colorado, has an EJ&E twin hopper in the background, adding more to the mentions of roaming hoppers:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Great-Western-Sugar-Co-Steam-Engine-0-4-0-T-Negative-Longmont-CO-1968/153919429158?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
Can anyone provide some information on these hoppers? Who built them and when? Is there a model in HO that would at least approximate them? Is there a source of appropriate decals, assuming a suitable model could be found?

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Okay You Gondola Devotees

vapeurchapelon
 

Gary,
 
there are no open cuts! The inside vertical ribs are coming THROUGH the side wall at that area, and they are still vertical, and what you think are cuts are just the shadows of those ribs.
 
Greetings
 
Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953
 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 02. Dezember 2020 um 20:57 Uhr
Von: "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...>
An: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [RealSTMFC] Okay You Gondola Devotees

Hi Ralph:

 

It is.  Look at the top of the double riveted strap between the Rio and Grande.  There is at the top of the strap a cut into the side of the gondola and there are 5 others along the side near the top.  Yes, it is a drop-bottom but what at the 6 cuts at the top of the sides for?

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ralph W. Brown
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 11:51 AM
To: 'main@RealSTMFC.groups.io' <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Okay You Gondola Devotees

 

Hi Gary,

 

Looks like a drop-bottom gon to me.

 

Pax,

 

 

Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

-----------------------------------------

From: "gary laakso"
To: "stmfc"
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday December 2 2020 12:58:35PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Okay You Gondola Devotees

 

While the company service tank cars and the DRGW 4-8-4 are extra eye candy, the DGRW gondola in the foreground on the left is the subject of this question.  What are the cut holes on the side of the car for?  I have not seen that feature in a gondola before.  Note too, the gusset plates cover part of the inside of the car, not just the top of the end and side.   The car also has wonderful residue of gunk in it that has not been cleaned out.

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1947-Jan-Salt-Lake-City/i-DsQZffL/A 

 

Gary “I know the Grande did things differently” Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 


Re: Okay You Gondola Devotees

gary laakso
 

Hi Ralph:

 

It is.  Look at the top of the double riveted strap between the Rio and Grande.  There is at the top of the strap a cut into the side of the gondola and there are 5 others along the side near the top.  Yes, it is a drop-bottom but what at the 6 cuts at the top of the sides for?

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ralph W. Brown
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 11:51 AM
To: 'main@RealSTMFC.groups.io' <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Okay You Gondola Devotees

 

Hi Gary,

 

Looks like a drop-bottom gon to me.

 

Pax,

 

 

Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

-----------------------------------------

From: "gary laakso"
To: "stmfc"
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday December 2 2020 12:58:35PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Okay You Gondola Devotees


While the company service tank cars and the DRGW 4-8-4 are extra eye candy, the DGRW gondola in the foreground on the left is the subject of this question.  What are the cut holes on the side of the car for?  I have not seen that feature in a gondola before.  Note too, the gusset plates cover part of the inside of the car, not just the top of the end and side.   The car also has wonderful residue of gunk in it that has not been cleaned out.

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1947-Jan-Salt-Lake-City/i-DsQZffL/A 

 

Gary “I know the Grande did things differently” Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock


Re: Okay You Gondola Devotees

Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Gary,

Looks like a drop-bottom gon to me.

Pax,


Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

-----------------------------------------

From: "gary laakso"
To: "stmfc"
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday December 2 2020 12:58:35PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Okay You Gondola Devotees

While the company service tank cars and the DRGW 4-8-4 are extra eye candy, the DGRW gondola in the foreground on the left is the subject of this question.  What are the cut holes on the side of the car for?  I have not seen that feature in a gondola before.  Note too, the gusset plates cover part of the inside of the car, not just the top of the end and side.   The car also has wonderful residue of gunk in it that has not been cleaned out.

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1947-Jan-Salt-Lake-City/i-DsQZffL/A 

 

Gary “I know the Grande did things differently” Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock


Re: Etched brass parts was Re: [RealSTMFC] Frisco “Sawtooth” boxcar photo

steve_wintner
 

I suppose one could etch a simple L with the holes. Design it for one peaked roof, file it to match the radial roof if needed. Then use a short stub of styrene to support the center of the L, under the central board. That'd look ok from some angles, but not all. In the same fashion, a stub of PB wire into a hole in the roof could support the etched L, might look better. (Kinda like moloco did, except in metal.) Fiddly though. 

Steve


Re: Okay You Gondola Devotees

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Gary,

Look at the similar car in the upper right of this photo to see what Richard means.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 1:05 PM Richard Townsend via groups.io <richtownsend=netscape.net@groups.io> wrote:
I think what you are seeing is the side sheathing angling in toward the center of the car, not cut out holes. You can see that on the inside of the car relative to the opposite side.






Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Tony Thompson
 

Ben Hom, responding to Chuck Cover, wrote:

To answer:
1. The norm.
2. Virtually all cars, with increasing number of marks between repaints as old marks remained on the car and were gradually obliterated over time.  Only a brand new car fresh out of the shop or builder would lack them.
3. All types of cars would have them.

    Full agreement, and I know Richard Hendrickson had reached the identical conclusions. Incidentally, he pointed out that though white chalk was by far most common, both yellow and blue were sometimes seen.

Tony Thompson




Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Friends,

How about these scribbles? At least they were done in chalk and not spray paint.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 12:28 PM Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...> wrote:
Chuck Cover asked:
"I am wondering if anyone can tell me how common chalk marks actually were?  I know there are some prototype photos with clear chalk marks, however, are they the exception or the norm?  What percentage of our models should have chalk marks?  Are chalk marks most common on box cars?"

To answer:
1. The norm.
2. Virtually all cars, with increasing number of marks between repaints as old marks remained on the car and were gradually obliterated over time.  Only a brand new car fresh out of the shop or builder would lack them.
3. All types of cars would have them.


Ben Hom


Re: Okay You Gondola Devotees

Richard Townsend
 

I think what you are seeing is the side sheathing angling in toward the center of the car, not cut out holes. You can see that on the inside of the car relative to the opposite side.


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Tim O'Connor
 

Chuck

Michael Gross's model here showing a mixture of chalk ages and colors, which was completely typical

And a Reading gondola shows chalk marks of different ages overlapping each other, also typical


On 12/2/2020 12:28 PM, Benjamin Hom wrote:
Chuck Cover asked:
"I am wondering if anyone can tell me how common chalk marks actually were?  I know there are some prototype photos with clear chalk marks, however, are they the exception or the norm?  What percentage of our models should have chalk marks?  Are chalk marks most common on box cars?"

To answer:
1. The norm.
2. Virtually all cars, with increasing number of marks between repaints as old marks remained on the car and were gradually obliterated over time.  Only a brand new car fresh out of the shop or builder would lack them.
3. All types of cars would have them.


Ben Hom


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Okay You Gondola Devotees

gary laakso
 

While the company service tank cars and the DRGW 4-8-4 are extra eye candy, the DGRW gondola in the foreground on the left is the subject of this question.  What are the cut holes on the side of the car for?  I have not seen that feature in a gondola before.  Note too, the gusset plates cover part of the inside of the car, not just the top of the end and side.   The car also has wonderful residue of gunk in it that has not been cleaned out.

 

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1947-Jan-Salt-Lake-City/i-DsQZffL/A 

 

Gary “I know the Grande did things differently” Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

8861 - 8880 of 188576