Date   

Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

Bruce Smith
 

Brian, Folks,

Yes, I did make some changes to the F&C kit that are detailed in the files of the PRRPro group. Broadly, these consisted of removing the bumps on the end decks (that resulted from someone copying a C&O Greenville Car Company flat), doing some putty and fill work on the decks, and adding some additional details such as the external brake line, drilling holes on both sides of the car for that line, removing the resin well decks and adding a laser cut wood deck (AMB), and adding rivets to the steel deck. 

The resin sill steps on this car are stupidly fragile, so I am in the process of making brass steps.

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Carlson via groups.io <prrk41361@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 10:51 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
 
Not the F33 requires several changes if using the F&C kit as enumerated by Bruce Smith if I recall. I hope it was Bruce. It a reason mine is still languishing in the box. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Dec 3, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:



Group;

 

One more.  This guy is easily modeled with the F&C kit, or Railworks brass model. 

 

The PRR F33 also showed up in the most unlikely places.  I don’t have on hand all the photos I once had of them all over the country.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 2:46 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

This is the BM car in question, as the F&C kit.  It is a really different, fun build.

 

And this beast.  Not everyone knows, the FD2 “Queen Mary” was one of the biggest flat cars (depressed center) in existence, built to use 4 huge trucks off of PRR long distance tenders, for ONE load (with expectations for others).  More unknown is this well hole flat, PRR class FW1, built for ONE load, to use with those same trucks.  They lifted off the FD2 body, then plopped this deep well hole body on top.  Check out THAT load!

 

Whew.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:49 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 6, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

How about this combo of well car AND depressed center flat?

 

It used a GSC casting to combine load-bearing well floor with depressed well, to boot.

 

Load distributed on end decks and side sills.

 

USS Homestead Works was a particularly good customer.

 

Listed as “FD”.

 

Hmmmm.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:37 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 5, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Then there are these guys.

 

I DARE you to build one. (The F&C kit is a great start).  Prepare for some interesting fabrications!

 

PRR took a handful of regular F25, and took the floor out and replaced it with thinner cross bars as shown in F25C interior. (Thanks to the great Craig Bossler)

 

This dropped the load inches closer to the floor, but not suspended, but on a load-bearing floor.  Note how load is secured in 435482.

 

The diagonal plate or tank head loaders did the same thing, but with the additions of the racks onto which the load rested, on that one side of the cars.

 

These cars were heavily notated about load distribution, as you can guess.

 

The B&M cars that served GE were a hybrid of well and well hole.  (F&C kit, also)  They had a non-load-bearing well, being more of a protection for the bottom of the load, than something bearing weight.  Those bore the load entirely on the end decking, by use of long beams that spanned the length of the car.  Take a look at that kit, for a really nice build.

 

“FW”, indeed.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:35 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 4, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

Then there are the well cars with no floor, like the FN.

 

Here is Jack Consoli’s fabulous rendition (featured in TKM) in which the load is both suspended and distributed to side sills and ends, but blocked inside the well with distribution to the end members shown in the photo of 470026. Yes, stenciled merely as “FW”.

 

The F37B got the very tallest loads that could be accommodated on a railroad.  Obviously they traveled widely, since nothing else could do what they did.

 

Fascinating.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:14 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 2, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

One of the interesting engineering problems in those days was how to distribute a load across the car without destroying the car.

 

For well cars with floors that were load-bearing, it generally involved distributing part of the load to the inside of the car where the load attached, but also to the (generally) more rugged (and deeper) side sill, by means of a series of load-bearing shapes connecting well bottom/side cross members, to the outside sill.

 

RDG 99009 is one of those. This load is clearly resting on the floor.  No load is transferred to the ends or side sills.

 

But, Here are a couple shots illustrating a load being transferred to the side sill:

 

Concentration of a load on the floor would punch through the generally thin or shallow cross bearers in these cars.  The Otis load is being spread out broadly.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:55 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

I thought maybe one or two of you would be interested in this murky subject:

 

There are at least several kinds of well cars, interestingly not separated in the AAR classification, which just lumps them together as “FW” – “Flat well-hole car for special transportation of plate glass, etc.  This car is a flat car with hole in middle to enable lading to be dropped down on account of clearance limits.”

 

Clear as mud. 

 

To a shipper that has a vertically oversized load to ship, there are some important considerations I would want to know.  Does the car have a floor in the well?  How far is it from the rails?  Is the floor load bearing?  If my load added on top of that still exceeds clearance, are portions of the floor removable in order to drop it closer to the rail without touching (especially important in the shipment of giant rings or circular ductwork or piping/valves)?  If this still doesn’t work, is there a car that has no floor that I could suspend the load into, that would work?  We are literally talking inches here….

 

None of that is clear in an AAR classification, forcing one to look at each car in detail, a shipper’s nightmare.

 

I can’t answer why, but they never did fully flesh this out.

 

PRR clearly had shippers in mind when they put more info in the ORER under each car, as notes (more on that in a follow-on).

 

Attached, the earliest PRR well hole car, the FN, with no floor, and the FNA with a nominal floor that can be removed if needed.  It is clearly not a load bearing floor. 

 

The last photo is interesting.  The shipper needs both flooring partially (at the least) removed, AND a tilt to the load to get it within clearance limits.  They have clearly supported the edges of the load above the rails by installing supports beneath on either side of the rim.  How’s THAT for an innovative solution?

 

These guys were smart!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 12:43 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

Blockedhttps://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3607476

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Car built 1924, photo taken 1938 or later.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

<PRR F33 2-28-65.jpg>
<PRR F33 47009x with load.JPG>
<PRR F33 470082 USS Homestead.tif>
<PRR F33 470091 PLE F11 6890 UEF New Castle 1 c1946.jpg>
<PRR F33 470091 PLE F11 6890 UEF New Castle 1a c1946.JPG>
<PRR F33 470091 PLE F11 6890 UEF New Castle 2 c1946 (002).jpg>


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

John Riddell
 

Lou

 

Here is an article on chalk marks that may help

 

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/CPR/general/chalk_it_up.htm

 

John Riddell

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: Ann Arbor Accurail kitbash

Chuck Cover
 

Nice job Rob.  I would like to hear how you scratch built the ends.  Thanks

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM

_._,_._,_


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

Todd Sullivan
 

Elden,

Regarding your comments about well flat designs and deciphering ORER entries, in my clerking experience, which included working Car Distributor (essentially the car inventory & supply mgr) for 2 weeks, I found that each industry's traffic manager had a pretty good working knowledge of the cars his company needed on a regular basis.  When I received calls requesting empties for loading, the requests were usually very specific down to the individual car or series number.  Also, the Car Distributor had a pretty good knowledge of both A) car types ordinarily found on the property (we were a terminal switching outfit) and B) how to decipher the contents of the ORER.  As a side note, after working as a clerk in the yard for about 6 months, if you gave me a valid initial and number combination for one of our area RRs, I could give a physical description of the car and what it was normally used for.

Todd Sullivan


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

Brian Carlson
 

Not the F33 requires several changes if using the F&C kit as enumerated by Bruce Smith if I recall. I hope it was Bruce. It a reason mine is still languishing in the box. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Dec 3, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:



Group;

 

One more.  This guy is easily modeled with the F&C kit, or Railworks brass model. 

 

The PRR F33 also showed up in the most unlikely places.  I don’t have on hand all the photos I once had of them all over the country.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 2:46 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

This is the BM car in question, as the F&C kit.  It is a really different, fun build.

 

And this beast.  Not everyone knows, the FD2 “Queen Mary” was one of the biggest flat cars (depressed center) in existence, built to use 4 huge trucks off of PRR long distance tenders, for ONE load (with expectations for others).  More unknown is this well hole flat, PRR class FW1, built for ONE load, to use with those same trucks.  They lifted off the FD2 body, then plopped this deep well hole body on top.  Check out THAT load!

 

Whew.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:49 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 6, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

How about this combo of well car AND depressed center flat?

 

It used a GSC casting to combine load-bearing well floor with depressed well, to boot.

 

Load distributed on end decks and side sills.

 

USS Homestead Works was a particularly good customer.

 

Listed as “FD”.

 

Hmmmm.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:37 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 5, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Then there are these guys.

 

I DARE you to build one. (The F&C kit is a great start).  Prepare for some interesting fabrications!

 

PRR took a handful of regular F25, and took the floor out and replaced it with thinner cross bars as shown in F25C interior. (Thanks to the great Craig Bossler)

 

This dropped the load inches closer to the floor, but not suspended, but on a load-bearing floor.  Note how load is secured in 435482.

 

The diagonal plate or tank head loaders did the same thing, but with the additions of the racks onto which the load rested, on that one side of the cars.

 

These cars were heavily notated about load distribution, as you can guess.

 

The B&M cars that served GE were a hybrid of well and well hole.  (F&C kit, also)  They had a non-load-bearing well, being more of a protection for the bottom of the load, than something bearing weight.  Those bore the load entirely on the end decking, by use of long beams that spanned the length of the car.  Take a look at that kit, for a really nice build.

 

“FW”, indeed.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:35 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 4, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

Then there are the well cars with no floor, like the FN.

 

Here is Jack Consoli’s fabulous rendition (featured in TKM) in which the load is both suspended and distributed to side sills and ends, but blocked inside the well with distribution to the end members shown in the photo of 470026. Yes, stenciled merely as “FW”.

 

The F37B got the very tallest loads that could be accommodated on a railroad.  Obviously they traveled widely, since nothing else could do what they did.

 

Fascinating.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:14 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 2, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

One of the interesting engineering problems in those days was how to distribute a load across the car without destroying the car.

 

For well cars with floors that were load-bearing, it generally involved distributing part of the load to the inside of the car where the load attached, but also to the (generally) more rugged (and deeper) side sill, by means of a series of load-bearing shapes connecting well bottom/side cross members, to the outside sill.

 

RDG 99009 is one of those. This load is clearly resting on the floor.  No load is transferred to the ends or side sills.

 

But, Here are a couple shots illustrating a load being transferred to the side sill:

 

Concentration of a load on the floor would punch through the generally thin or shallow cross bearers in these cars.  The Otis load is being spread out broadly.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:55 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

I thought maybe one or two of you would be interested in this murky subject:

 

There are at least several kinds of well cars, interestingly not separated in the AAR classification, which just lumps them together as “FW” – “Flat well-hole car for special transportation of plate glass, etc.  This car is a flat car with hole in middle to enable lading to be dropped down on account of clearance limits.”

 

Clear as mud. 

 

To a shipper that has a vertically oversized load to ship, there are some important considerations I would want to know.  Does the car have a floor in the well?  How far is it from the rails?  Is the floor load bearing?  If my load added on top of that still exceeds clearance, are portions of the floor removable in order to drop it closer to the rail without touching (especially important in the shipment of giant rings or circular ductwork or piping/valves)?  If this still doesn’t work, is there a car that has no floor that I could suspend the load into, that would work?  We are literally talking inches here….

 

None of that is clear in an AAR classification, forcing one to look at each car in detail, a shipper’s nightmare.

 

I can’t answer why, but they never did fully flesh this out.

 

PRR clearly had shippers in mind when they put more info in the ORER under each car, as notes (more on that in a follow-on).

 

Attached, the earliest PRR well hole car, the FN, with no floor, and the FNA with a nominal floor that can be removed if needed.  It is clearly not a load bearing floor. 

 

The last photo is interesting.  The shipper needs both flooring partially (at the least) removed, AND a tilt to the load to get it within clearance limits.  They have clearly supported the edges of the load above the rails by installing supports beneath on either side of the rim.  How’s THAT for an innovative solution?

 

These guys were smart!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 12:43 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

Blockedhttps://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3607476

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Car built 1924, photo taken 1938 or later.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

<PRR F33 2-28-65.jpg>
<PRR F33 47009x with load.JPG>
<PRR F33 470082 USS Homestead.tif>
<PRR F33 470091 PLE F11 6890 UEF New Castle 1 c1946.jpg>
<PRR F33 470091 PLE F11 6890 UEF New Castle 1a c1946.JPG>
<PRR F33 470091 PLE F11 6890 UEF New Castle 2 c1946 (002).jpg>


Re: Ann Arbor Accurail kitbash

Paul Doggett
 

Rob

That’s going to look really good when it’s finished.

Paul Doggett.   England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 

On 3 Dec 2020, at 16:47, Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

Thought I'd post an updated photo of my kitbash of one of the Ann Arbor 73750 series boxcars.  It uses the 4300 series Accurail boxcar, with modified door rollers, top plate, and strap bracing on the end panels.  The Yarmouth Hutchins roof, a wood running board and their 16" spacing 7 rung ladders (modified for the car ends) were also used.   The ends were scratch built (before I did the 3d drawing of the replacement end).   

Waiting for the Miner power brake parts to arrive.

Rob

Attachments:


Re: Etched brass parts was Re: [RealSTMFC] Frisco “Sawtooth” boxcar photo

radiodial868
 

If you've ever built any of YMW's runningboard end supports, or the brake step platform, you know how complex, delicate yet strong they are once bent along their little fold lines. 
I was thinking something like this little sketch I just threw together on my phone. The blue is the bend lines. The YMW etched bend lines can go either way, so could represent many styles. The 'feet" would be easily tweaked with a needlenose to match any odd roof angle or irregularity encountered.

-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Ann Arbor Accurail kitbash

Robert kirkham
 

Thought I'd post an updated photo of my kitbash of one of the Ann Arbor 73750 series boxcars.  It uses the 4300 series Accurail boxcar, with modified door rollers, top plate, and strap bracing on the end panels.  The Yarmouth Hutchins roof, a wood running board and their 16" spacing 7 rung ladders (modified for the car ends) were also used.   The ends were scratch built (before I did the 3d drawing of the replacement end).   

Waiting for the Miner power brake parts to arrive.

Rob


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Group;

 

One more.  This guy is easily modeled with the F&C kit, or Railworks brass model. 

 

The PRR F33 also showed up in the most unlikely places.  I don’t have on hand all the photos I once had of them all over the country.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 2:46 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

This is the BM car in question, as the F&C kit.  It is a really different, fun build.

 

And this beast.  Not everyone knows, the FD2 “Queen Mary” was one of the biggest flat cars (depressed center) in existence, built to use 4 huge trucks off of PRR long distance tenders, for ONE load (with expectations for others).  More unknown is this well hole flat, PRR class FW1, built for ONE load, to use with those same trucks.  They lifted off the FD2 body, then plopped this deep well hole body on top.  Check out THAT load!

 

Whew.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:49 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 6, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

How about this combo of well car AND depressed center flat?

 

It used a GSC casting to combine load-bearing well floor with depressed well, to boot.

 

Load distributed on end decks and side sills.

 

USS Homestead Works was a particularly good customer.

 

Listed as “FD”.

 

Hmmmm.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:37 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 5, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Then there are these guys.

 

I DARE you to build one. (The F&C kit is a great start).  Prepare for some interesting fabrications!

 

PRR took a handful of regular F25, and took the floor out and replaced it with thinner cross bars as shown in F25C interior. (Thanks to the great Craig Bossler)

 

This dropped the load inches closer to the floor, but not suspended, but on a load-bearing floor.  Note how load is secured in 435482.

 

The diagonal plate or tank head loaders did the same thing, but with the additions of the racks onto which the load rested, on that one side of the cars.

 

These cars were heavily notated about load distribution, as you can guess.

 

The B&M cars that served GE were a hybrid of well and well hole.  (F&C kit, also)  They had a non-load-bearing well, being more of a protection for the bottom of the load, than something bearing weight.  Those bore the load entirely on the end decking, by use of long beams that spanned the length of the car.  Take a look at that kit, for a really nice build.

 

“FW”, indeed.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:35 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 4, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

Then there are the well cars with no floor, like the FN.

 

Here is Jack Consoli’s fabulous rendition (featured in TKM) in which the load is both suspended and distributed to side sills and ends, but blocked inside the well with distribution to the end members shown in the photo of 470026. Yes, stenciled merely as “FW”.

 

The F37B got the very tallest loads that could be accommodated on a railroad.  Obviously they traveled widely, since nothing else could do what they did.

 

Fascinating.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:14 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 2, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

One of the interesting engineering problems in those days was how to distribute a load across the car without destroying the car.

 

For well cars with floors that were load-bearing, it generally involved distributing part of the load to the inside of the car where the load attached, but also to the (generally) more rugged (and deeper) side sill, by means of a series of load-bearing shapes connecting well bottom/side cross members, to the outside sill.

 

RDG 99009 is one of those. This load is clearly resting on the floor.  No load is transferred to the ends or side sills.

 

But, Here are a couple shots illustrating a load being transferred to the side sill:

 

Concentration of a load on the floor would punch through the generally thin or shallow cross bearers in these cars.  The Otis load is being spread out broadly.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:55 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

I thought maybe one or two of you would be interested in this murky subject:

 

There are at least several kinds of well cars, interestingly not separated in the AAR classification, which just lumps them together as “FW” – “Flat well-hole car for special transportation of plate glass, etc.  This car is a flat car with hole in middle to enable lading to be dropped down on account of clearance limits.”

 

Clear as mud. 

 

To a shipper that has a vertically oversized load to ship, there are some important considerations I would want to know.  Does the car have a floor in the well?  How far is it from the rails?  Is the floor load bearing?  If my load added on top of that still exceeds clearance, are portions of the floor removable in order to drop it closer to the rail without touching (especially important in the shipment of giant rings or circular ductwork or piping/valves)?  If this still doesn’t work, is there a car that has no floor that I could suspend the load into, that would work?  We are literally talking inches here….

 

None of that is clear in an AAR classification, forcing one to look at each car in detail, a shipper’s nightmare.

 

I can’t answer why, but they never did fully flesh this out.

 

PRR clearly had shippers in mind when they put more info in the ORER under each car, as notes (more on that in a follow-on).

 

Attached, the earliest PRR well hole car, the FN, with no floor, and the FNA with a nominal floor that can be removed if needed.  It is clearly not a load bearing floor. 

 

The last photo is interesting.  The shipper needs both flooring partially (at the least) removed, AND a tilt to the load to get it within clearance limits.  They have clearly supported the edges of the load above the rails by installing supports beneath on either side of the rim.  How’s THAT for an innovative solution?

 

These guys were smart!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 12:43 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

Blockedhttps://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3607476

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Car built 1924, photo taken 1938 or later.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Todd Sullivan
 

Hi Mark,

Would you be able to give us some examples from the car shop?  Tehy woudl be illuminating.

Todd Sullivan


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] LV 9951 series, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Nice job, Daniel!

 

Do you have any more info on these cars?

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Daniel A. Mitchell
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2020 3:24 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] LV 9951 series, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

As stated earlier, here’s my photo of the HO Redball LV 56’ well-hole flat ...

 

 

I’ll make one correction to my earlier post … the deck is imbossed cardstock. As stated the ends and sides are set metal castings, the frame is wood, with blocks for the ends and stips for the sides. The trucks are pasenger trucks fitted with smaller 33” wheelsets. Detailing is basic, as I had no better info at the time. The load is also Redball, a new crane bridge. I built this car perhaps 40 years ago, and it’s seen a lot of service.

 

Dan Mitchell

==========



On Nov 20, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:

 

Mine, built from a quite old kit (ca. 1960), has wooden blocks for the end platforms, and soft metal overlays for the top decks, sides, and ends. NO trucks came with it. I used modified 3-axle passenger trucks. I’ll try to post a photo of the model soon.

 

Dan Mitchell

==========



On Nov 20, 2020, at 11:11 AM, Jon Miller <atsfus@...> wrote:

 

On 11/20/2020 6:57 AM, Daniel A. Mitchell wrote:

Redball used to offer a wood & metal kit of this car in HO scale. I have one. It’s a bit crude by modern standards, but with a little work makes an unusual and quite presentable model.

 

Dan Mitchell

    I have one of these.  I believe the sides are card-stock.  The wheels in the RB trucks are 28".

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, 
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

 

 


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 4, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Ken and all;

 

Sorry I am answering so late!

 

I can only speculate that ORER authors/editors had to rely entirely on the RRs to provide sufficient information to allow a shipper to figure out who they needed to talk to RE: well with floor, without floor, height of floor above rails, length and width of well, etc.

 

Clearly, “FW” is not enough.

 

I spent a great deal of time trying to figure all this out, for just the PRR picture, but still would love to learn of other RR practices and approaches.

 

Thanks for all the feedback!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of akerboomk
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 6:07 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 4, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Re: F37B with “no well floor” (at least that’s what I’m interpreting Elden’s comment…)

 

Note other railroads also had well cars with “no floor”.  In the Jan 1953 ORER (table in back) I am interpreting the phrase (in “load carrying platform” – “height from top of rail” column) “open pit” to mean there is no floor:

 

D&H 16160 series

LV 9951 series

NYC 499xxx series (5 separate lines)

 

I don’t know enough about these cars to know if that is truly what the ORER means…

 

Ken

 

 

 


--
Ken Akerboom


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Tony;

 

I greatly appreciate the input!  Any input you can provide is ALWAYS appreciated.

 

Menagerie is right.  I was looking back at some of the data I collected, and it was indeed a dog’s breakfast of cars on the PRR, due to the incredible variety of customer demands in their territory.  It wasn’t just Westinghouse, it was also Mesta Machine, United Engineering, United States Steel, and many others, all with specific needs.

 

It must’ve been lucrative, otherwise why?  Bragging rights?  Not enough.  These cars were incredibly expensive.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 4:51 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff

 

If you ever find a copy of that, I would LOVE to see a copy!

 

   Elden, I have a copy in hand as I type. In the middle 1960s, SP issued a series of "Freight Car Specification Sheets" for all car types, 25 in all, and over time some of the sheets received supplements (many were one-page sheets, but many were longer). The heavy-duty flat cars wee on sheet 12A (one of the supplements). I can copy for you. Of course SP did not have the menagerie of specialized cars that PRR needed for its traffic.

    There was once a set of these sheets on-line, but when I went to the saved URL, they were not there. Haven't searched to see if they are out there somewhere.

 

Tony Thompson

 

 

 


Re: Frisco “Sawtooth” boxcar photo

radiodial868
 

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 08:33 AM, Guy Wilber wrote:

As “Latitudinal Running Board” is the official term used by The MCBA, ARA and AAR.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada
Ha!
Well, that is just silly now. Latitudinal means "width" and Longitudinal means "length".
No wonder we are all nuts.
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

radiodial868
 

The one aspect of chalk marking I still don't do, but am trying to figure out, is smudged and old chalkmarks. All our decals and pencil and pens make new or recent chalk marks. I kept practicing on junk bodies, but still don't have it looking right yet. I'm thinking the key is subtly as seen in Michael's preceding example.
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Louis Adler
 

Not having any knowledge of chalk mark content, what would be typical information conveyed by a chalk mark?  Modeling 1955 means that I need to add them to some of my rolling stock.  TIA

Lou Adler


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Steve and Barb Hile
 

We had sidewalk chalk for our kids (and now for our grandkids) that was soft and about an inch in diameter.  Likely the same or similar stuff.

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 9:09 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Another means of adding chalk markings

 

Doug Harding wrote:



The chalk was a 1” stick, so the markings could be seen at a distance. Railroad chalk is still sold and used in a number of commercial applications.

 

      Yes, indeed, and when I was in my various lecturing jobs, I really liked it for chalk boards, students could see it well. (The chalk is kind of soft, makes a nice bold line.)

 

Tony Thompson

 

 

 


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Mark Vinski
 

When I worked on the Union Railroad in Pittsburgh as a car and air brake repairman at the Mon Jct. car shop we would use chalk to list on the car side the parts that were used to repair each car . A clerk would transfer this information to the paper work used to bill the car owner.
Mark Vinski


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Tony Thompson
 

Doug Harding wrote:

The chalk was a 1” stick, so the markings could be seen at a distance. Railroad chalk is still sold and used in a number of commercial applications.

      Yes, indeed, and when I was in my various lecturing jobs, I really liked it for chalk boards, students could see it well. (The chalk is kind of soft, makes a nice bold line.)

Tony Thompson




Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Douglas Harding
 

A quick search for “railroad chalk” will produce a number of hits, with different brands and types. Many of them related to the building trades, as the 1” chalk is still used to mark lumber and building supplies.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Andy Cich
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 6:29 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Another means of adding chalk markings

 

The document I attached gave instructions for inspectors to mark cars with a crayon. I am wondering if “crayon” is another term for railroad chalk.

 

Andy Cich

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Douglas Harding
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 5:56 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Another means of adding chalk markings

 

The chalk was a 1” stick, so the markings could be seen at a distance. Railroad chalk is still sold and used in a number of commercial applications.

http://cspforestry.com/products/dixon-railroad-chalk-72-chalk-sticks.html

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Andy Cich
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 5:22 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Another means of adding chalk markings

 

The attached image is a page from a Pennsylvania Railroad Chicago Switching District instruction manual dated January 1, 1952,

 

Would the marks described be visible as “chalk marks”? Or would the described marks be too small to see on a model?

 

 

Andy Cich

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2020 3:33 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Another means of adding chalk markings

 

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