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Re: Another means of adding chalk markings
Benjamin Hom
Lou Adler wrote: "Not having any knowledge of chalk mark content, what would be typical information conveyed by a chalk mark? Modeling 1955 means that I need to add them to some of my rolling stock." A bit of everything - routing instructions, blocking instructions, unloading instructions, car inspector marks, bad order markings, and rarely (especially compared to today), graffiti. Ben Hom
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Re: Frisco “Sawtooth” boxcar photo - North/south, east/west longitude/latitude
Schuyler Larrabee
As I thought for quite a while, Guy, but I’ve come around to embracing the harder-to-say “latitudinal” running board. As you say it means width, and the latitudinal boards run across the WIDTH of the car, vs. the length.
Think of the car as a map. North and south, that’s longitude. East and west is latitude.
Schuyler
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of radiodial868
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2020 11:22 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Frisco “Sawtooth” boxcar photo
On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 08:33 AM, Guy Wilber wrote:
Ha!
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Re: Ann Arbor Accurail kitbash
Looks great Rob, excellent build Fenton
On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 11:47 AM Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote: Thought I'd post an updated photo of my kitbash of one of the Ann Arbor 73750 series boxcars. It uses the 4300 series Accurail boxcar, with modified door rollers, top plate, and strap bracing on the end panels. The Yarmouth Hutchins roof, a wood running board and their 16" spacing 7 rung ladders (modified for the car ends) were also used. The ends were scratch built (before I did the 3d drawing of the replacement end). --
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Re: Ann Arbor Accurail kitbash
Robert kirkham
Trial and error! LOL. Well, I filed and sanded down the end to a flat surface, and filled in the mounting holes for the brake step. This is fairly easy with the original roof off. (I removed the roof as I wanted a wider roof overhang to match the prototype.) Once the ends were flat, I 3d printed the 4 bulges. 2 or 3 holes were drilled through the end to allow gluing the bulges with CA from behind. The bulges were tacked into place with Tamiya solvent (which won’t hold the printed parts long term), and then moved around until they looked about right, then the CA added from inside the car body. A strip of .005” styrene was solvent cemented across for the panel seem. Archer rivets applied per the photos.
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It's been a learning process both in methods and in accuracy to prototype. I think I might do a better job with assembly next time - one end isn’t precisely identical to the other. And the end details are wrong in a number of ways, which is why I have ended up drawing complete ends that correct errors. But, since the model was already well along, I decided to complete it and save the corrected ends for another project. Rob
On Dec 3, 2020, at 9:09 AM, Chuck Cover <chuck.cover@...> wrote: Nice job Rob. I would like to hear how you scratch built the ends. Thanks
Chuck Cover Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] LV 9951 series, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
Thanks, Elden. It’s a simple but impressive car.
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Sadly, I have no more info. I built the car years ago pretty much right from the RedBall instructions. Only later did I find a photo of the prototype, IIRC in a Train Shed cyclopedia … it’s the same photo as started this thread. I remember replacing the 36” wheelsets in the passenger trucks with 33” sets to get the height to come out acceptable. The only thing I’ve done since is convert it to Kadee couplers. There’s no underbody detail at all. Fortunately the topsides of the prototype are rather simple too, so the lack of a lot of detail is correct. If I find out much more I’ll probably be forced to rebuild it! :-(( Dan Mitchell ==========
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
vapeurchapelon
Hello Bruce,
beautyful car! Are these trucks the good old Athearn or something different? (They seem to look sharper but also lack brake shoes.)
Many greetings
Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 03. Dezember 2020 um 18:24 Uhr
Von: "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> An: "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Betreff: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated) Brian, Folks,
Yes, I did make some changes to the F&C kit that are detailed in the files of the PRRPro group. Broadly, these consisted of removing the bumps on the end decks (that resulted from someone copying a C&O Greenville Car Company flat), doing some putty and fill work on the decks, and adding some additional details such as the external brake line, drilling holes on both sides of the car for that line, removing the resin well decks and adding a laser cut wood deck (AMB), and adding rivets to the steel deck.
The resin sill steps on this car are stupidly fragile, so I am in the process of making brass steps.
Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Carlson via groups.io <prrk41361@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 10:51 AM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io> Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated) Not the F33 requires several changes if using the F&C kit as enumerated by Bruce Smith if I recall. I hope it was Bruce. It a reason mine is still languishing in the box.
Brian J. Carlson
On Dec 3, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:
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Re: Another means of adding chalk markings
Lou,
Lots of information, much of it in shorthand!
Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Louis Adler <lsainnwa@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 9:16 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Another means of adding chalk markings Not having any knowledge of chalk mark content, what would be typical information conveyed by a chalk mark? Modeling 1955 means that I need to add them to some of my rolling stock. TIA
Lou Adler
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Re: Another means of adding chalk markings
Tony Thompson
Anything and everything a switchman needed to know: track numbers, outbound train numbers, consignee, repair or cleaning needs, date, time, MT or loaded, etc. Problem is, it’s mostly in local code or abbreviations, so you can’t really decode it. But that’s good news too: write almost anything!
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Tony Thompson
On Dec 3, 2020, at 7:16 AM, Louis Adler <lsainnwa@...> wrote:
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
Brian, Folks,
Yes, I did make some changes to the F&C kit that are detailed in the files of the PRRPro group. Broadly, these consisted of removing the bumps on the end decks (that resulted from someone copying a C&O Greenville Car Company flat), doing some putty and fill
work on the decks, and adding some additional details such as the external brake line, drilling holes on both sides of the car for that line, removing the resin well decks and adding a laser cut wood deck (AMB), and adding rivets to the steel deck.
The resin sill steps on this car are stupidly fragile, so I am in the process of making brass steps.
Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Carlson via groups.io <prrk41361@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 10:51 AM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io> Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated) Not the F33 requires several changes if using the F&C kit as enumerated by Bruce Smith if I recall. I hope it was Bruce. It a reason mine is still languishing in the box.
Brian J. Carlson
On Dec 3, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:
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Re: Another means of adding chalk markings
John Riddell
Lou
Here is an article on chalk marks that may help
http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/CPR/general/chalk_it_up.htm
John Riddell
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
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Re: Ann Arbor Accurail kitbash
Chuck Cover
Nice job Rob. I would like to hear how you scratch built the ends. Thanks
Chuck Cover Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
Todd Sullivan
Elden,
Regarding your comments about well flat designs and deciphering ORER entries, in my clerking experience, which included working Car Distributor (essentially the car inventory & supply mgr) for 2 weeks, I found that each industry's traffic manager had a pretty good working knowledge of the cars his company needed on a regular basis. When I received calls requesting empties for loading, the requests were usually very specific down to the individual car or series number. Also, the Car Distributor had a pretty good knowledge of both A) car types ordinarily found on the property (we were a terminal switching outfit) and B) how to decipher the contents of the ORER. As a side note, after working as a clerk in the yard for about 6 months, if you gave me a valid initial and number combination for one of our area RRs, I could give a physical description of the car and what it was normally used for. Todd Sullivan
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
Not the F33 requires several changes if using the F&C kit as enumerated by Bruce Smith if I recall. I hope it was Bruce. It a reason mine is still languishing in the box.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Brian J. Carlson
On Dec 3, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:
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Re: Ann Arbor Accurail kitbash
Paul Doggett
Rob
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
That’s going to look really good when it’s finished. Paul Doggett. England 🏴
On 3 Dec 2020, at 16:47, Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:
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Re: Etched brass parts was Re: [RealSTMFC] Frisco “Sawtooth” boxcar photo
radiodial868
If you've ever built any of YMW's runningboard end supports, or the brake step platform, you know how complex, delicate yet strong they are once bent along their little fold lines.
I was thinking something like this little sketch I just threw together on my phone. The blue is the bend lines. The YMW etched bend lines can go either way, so could represent many styles. The 'feet" would be easily tweaked with a needlenose to match any odd roof angle or irregularity encountered.  ------------------- RJ Dial Mendocino, CA
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Ann Arbor Accurail kitbash
Robert kirkham
Thought I'd post an updated photo of my kitbash of one of the Ann Arbor 73750 series boxcars. It uses the 4300 series Accurail boxcar, with modified door rollers, top plate, and strap bracing on the end panels. The Yarmouth Hutchins roof, a wood running board and their 16" spacing 7 rung ladders (modified for the car ends) were also used. The ends were scratch built (before I did the 3d drawing of the replacement end).
Waiting for the Miner power brake parts to arrive. Rob
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Group;
One more. This guy is easily modeled with the F&C kit, or Railworks brass model.
The PRR F33 also showed up in the most unlikely places. I don’t have on hand all the photos I once had of them all over the country.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 2:46 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
Group;
This is the BM car in question, as the F&C kit. It is a really different, fun build.
And this beast. Not everyone knows, the FD2 “Queen Mary” was one of the biggest flat cars (depressed center) in existence, built to use 4 huge trucks off of PRR long distance tenders, for ONE load (with expectations for others). More unknown is this well hole flat, PRR class FW1, built for ONE load, to use with those same trucks. They lifted off the FD2 body, then plopped this deep well hole body on top. Check out THAT load!
Whew.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Group;
How about this combo of well car AND depressed center flat?
It used a GSC casting to combine load-bearing well floor with depressed well, to boot.
Load distributed on end decks and side sills.
USS Homestead Works was a particularly good customer.
Listed as “FD”.
Hmmmm.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Then there are these guys.
I DARE you to build one. (The F&C kit is a great start). Prepare for some interesting fabrications!
PRR took a handful of regular F25, and took the floor out and replaced it with thinner cross bars as shown in F25C interior. (Thanks to the great Craig Bossler)
This dropped the load inches closer to the floor, but not suspended, but on a load-bearing floor. Note how load is secured in 435482.
The diagonal plate or tank head loaders did the same thing, but with the additions of the racks onto which the load rested, on that one side of the cars.
These cars were heavily notated about load distribution, as you can guess.
The B&M cars that served GE were a hybrid of well and well hole. (F&C kit, also) They had a non-load-bearing well, being more of a protection for the bottom of the load, than something bearing weight. Those bore the load entirely on the end decking, by use of long beams that spanned the length of the car. Take a look at that kit, for a really nice build.
“FW”, indeed.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Group;
Then there are the well cars with no floor, like the FN.
Here is Jack Consoli’s fabulous rendition (featured in TKM) in which the load is both suspended and distributed to side sills and ends, but blocked inside the well with distribution to the end members shown in the photo of 470026. Yes, stenciled merely as “FW”.
The F37B got the very tallest loads that could be accommodated on a railroad. Obviously they traveled widely, since nothing else could do what they did.
Fascinating.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Group;
One of the interesting engineering problems in those days was how to distribute a load across the car without destroying the car.
For well cars with floors that were load-bearing, it generally involved distributing part of the load to the inside of the car where the load attached, but also to the (generally) more rugged (and deeper) side sill, by means of a series of load-bearing shapes connecting well bottom/side cross members, to the outside sill.
RDG 99009 is one of those. This load is clearly resting on the floor. No load is transferred to the ends or side sills.
But, Here are a couple shots illustrating a load being transferred to the side sill:
Concentration of a load on the floor would punch through the generally thin or shallow cross bearers in these cars. The Otis load is being spread out broadly.
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Group;
I thought maybe one or two of you would be interested in this murky subject:
There are at least several kinds of well cars, interestingly not separated in the AAR classification, which just lumps them together as “FW” – “Flat well-hole car for special transportation of plate glass, etc. This car is a flat car with hole in middle to enable lading to be dropped down on account of clearance limits.”
Clear as mud.
To a shipper that has a vertically oversized load to ship, there are some important considerations I would want to know. Does the car have a floor in the well? How far is it from the rails? Is the floor load bearing? If my load added on top of that still exceeds clearance, are portions of the floor removable in order to drop it closer to the rail without touching (especially important in the shipment of giant rings or circular ductwork or piping/valves)? If this still doesn’t work, is there a car that has no floor that I could suspend the load into, that would work? We are literally talking inches here….
None of that is clear in an AAR classification, forcing one to look at each car in detail, a shipper’s nightmare.
I can’t answer why, but they never did fully flesh this out.
PRR clearly had shippers in mind when they put more info in the ORER under each car, as notes (more on that in a follow-on).
Attached, the earliest PRR well hole car, the FN, with no floor, and the FNA with a nominal floor that can be removed if needed. It is clearly not a load bearing floor.
The last photo is interesting. The shipper needs both flooring partially (at the least) removed, AND a tilt to the load to get it within clearance limits. They have clearly supported the edges of the load above the rails by installing supports beneath on either side of the rim. How’s THAT for an innovative solution?
These guys were smart!
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated) A photo from the National Archives of Canada: This photo can be enlarged quite a bit. Car built 1924, photo taken 1938 or later. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA
.jpg)
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Re: Another means of adding chalk markings
Todd Sullivan
Hi Mark,
Would you be able to give us some examples from the car shop? Tehy woudl be illuminating. Todd Sullivan
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] LV 9951 series, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Nice job, Daniel!
Do you have any more info on these cars?
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Daniel A. Mitchell
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2020 3:24 PM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] LV 9951 series, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
As stated earlier, here’s my photo of the HO Redball LV 56’ well-hole flat ...
I’ll make one correction to my earlier post … the deck is imbossed cardstock. As stated the ends and sides are set metal castings, the frame is wood, with blocks for the ends and stips for the sides. The trucks are pasenger trucks fitted with smaller 33” wheelsets. Detailing is basic, as I had no better info at the time. The load is also Redball, a new crane bridge. I built this car perhaps 40 years ago, and it’s seen a lot of service.
Dan Mitchell ==========
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 4, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Ken and all;
Sorry I am answering so late!
I can only speculate that ORER authors/editors had to rely entirely on the RRs to provide sufficient information to allow a shipper to figure out who they needed to talk to RE: well with floor, without floor, height of floor above rails, length and width of well, etc.
Clearly, “FW” is not enough.
I spent a great deal of time trying to figure all this out, for just the PRR picture, but still would love to learn of other RR practices and approaches.
Thanks for all the feedback!
Elden Gatwood
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of akerboomk
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 6:07 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 4, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
Re: F37B with “no well floor” (at least that’s what I’m interpreting Elden’s comment…)
Note other railroads also had well cars with “no floor”. In the Jan 1953 ORER (table in back) I am interpreting the phrase (in “load carrying platform” – “height from top of rail” column) “open pit” to mean there is no floor:
D&H 16160 series LV 9951 series NYC 499xxx series (5 separate lines)
I don’t know enough about these cars to know if that is truly what the ORER means…
Ken
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