Date   

Re: Frisco “Sawtooth” boxcar photo - North/south, east/west longitude/latitude

Dave Parker
 

The Oxford dictionary definition of longitudinal is (1) running lengthwise rather than across (not "length"), (2) relating to longitude; measured from east to west (sorry Schuyler, you're off by 90 degrees).

The comparable definition of latitudinal is "
relating to the position of a place north or south of the earth's equator".

IOW, latitudinal does not seem to have a non-geographical definition in modern usage.  But, it implicitly means perpendicular to longitudinal, which is why I have no real problem with the MCB/ARA/AAR usage for those short running boards at each end of many house cars.  It is what it is.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Re: Ann Arbor Accurail kitbash

bigfourroad
 

Looks great Rob.  You mentioned a 3D drawing, do you plan to offer via Shapeways or other store? Please be sure to shar completed pix.
Chris R.


Re: Ann Arbor Accurail kitbash

Clark Propst
 

Very nice job Rob!

Looking forward to seeing the completed model

Clark Propst

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


How thin can you go?

Andy Carlson
 

I have my list of the 4 best items to have blessed model freight car building as follows, in no particular order:
1) Evergreen styrene strips
2) Dial calipers
3) Resins, such as polyurethane
4) RPM meets and online information

Talking about resin-- the ability to take something as viscous as motor oil and pour into a mold cavity surrounded by rubber and get a solid Westerfield part is pure great science! The ability to show detail to amazingly small and thin sizes is remarkable, as well. This ability of going down to really thin sizes is both remarkable and a bane. All flash on a resin part is what is left behind when the casting process's smooth backing for the casting gets wet, which it must. The wetness will harden, as resins will and after the removal from the mold the flash on the part is a remnant of this wetted back side of the smoothing backing tool (this is what makes for the really smooth backing to flat cast parts). Though removing flash with a knife is often the technique used, it does leave behind a slightly raised portion which left on a car side, no harm because that portion of casting is on the back and inside of the part. The ends, however, rely on its flat finish to cap the pair of car sides and with flash a bit thicker than average this will cause a relic viewable between the end's edge and the car side. To eliminate this issue, sanding the end casting on a plate of glass until the flash is gone and the end's edge is straight is the preferred way to prepare these end castings for assembly.

This flash can, at times, work to our advantage. Not often in resin car building do we face the engineering problems of scale thickness. A good example is for running board edges. A wood running board is about 0.020" thick in HO scale. Fortunately, we don't need to model Dreadnaught ends to scale thickness, as the inside view, particularly the inside edge view is buried inside the car body. An issue is when we come to Dreadnaught ends which are viewable from both sides, such as a gondola end. The thickness of a 5/16" thick piece of stamped steel in the real world equates to under 0.004" in HO scale. That is about double the thickness of human hair and a real challenge to injection mold a cross section that thin in HO.

With the understanding of how thin wet resin can get gives us an opportunity to use that to our advantage. I have an example of how thin we can get with resin. An example is with a recently cast Dreadnaught end I have for a gondola drop end. My 2 mold pieces can be closed up to each other to allow very thin gaps. This end has about 0.004" thickness, and any attempt to get to even thinner cross sections is unnecessary at this reached closeness.

So here is a picture of a resin HO end which is probably thinner than any commercial plastic car's end made.

Inline image
Outside view with the ribs facing outwards.
Inline image

Inside view with the ribs going inwards.

You all do well,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA




Re: Ann Arbor Accurail kitbash

gtws00
 

Looking very nice so far
Thanks for sharing
George Toman


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Benjamin Hom
 

Lou Adler wrote:
"Not having any knowledge of chalk mark content, what would be typical information conveyed by a chalk mark?  Modeling 1955 means that I need to add them to some of my rolling stock."

A bit of everything - routing instructions, blocking instructions, unloading instructions, car inspector marks, bad order markings, and rarely (especially compared to today), graffiti.


Ben Hom


Re: Frisco “Sawtooth” boxcar photo - North/south, east/west longitude/latitude

Schuyler Larrabee
 

As I thought for quite a while, Guy, but I’ve come around to embracing the harder-to-say “latitudinal” running board.  As you say it means width, and the latitudinal boards run across the WIDTH of the car, vs. the length.

 

Think of the car as a map.  North and south, that’s longitude.  East and west is latitude.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of radiodial868
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2020 11:22 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Frisco “Sawtooth” boxcar photo

 

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 08:33 AM, Guy Wilber wrote:


As “Latitudinal Running Board” is the official term used by The MCBA, ARA and AAR.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada

Ha!
Well, that is just silly now. Latitudinal means "width" and Longitudinal means "length".
No wonder we are all nuts.
-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA


Re: Ann Arbor Accurail kitbash

O Fenton Wells
 

Looks great Rob, excellent build
Fenton

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 11:47 AM Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:
Thought I'd post an updated photo of my kitbash of one of the Ann Arbor 73750 series boxcars.  It uses the 4300 series Accurail boxcar, with modified door rollers, top plate, and strap bracing on the end panels.  The Yarmouth Hutchins roof, a wood running board and their 16" spacing 7 rung ladders (modified for the car ends) were also used.   The ends were scratch built (before I did the 3d drawing of the replacement end).   

Waiting for the Miner power brake parts to arrive.

Rob



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


Re: Ann Arbor Accurail kitbash

Robert kirkham
 

Trial and error!  LOL.   Well, I filed and sanded down the end to a flat surface, and filled in the mounting holes for the brake step.  This is fairly easy with the original roof off.  (I removed the roof as I wanted a wider roof overhang to match the prototype.)   Once the ends were flat, I 3d printed the 4 bulges.  2 or 3 holes were drilled through the end to allow gluing the bulges with CA from behind.  The bulges were tacked into place with Tamiya solvent (which won’t hold the printed parts long term), and then moved around until they looked about right, then the CA added from inside the car body.  A strip of .005” styrene was solvent cemented across for the panel seem.   Archer rivets applied per the photos.  

It's been a learning process both in methods and in accuracy to prototype.  I think I might do a better job with assembly next time - one end isn’t precisely identical to the other.  And the end details are wrong in a number of ways, which is why I have ended up drawing complete ends that correct errors.   But, since the model was already well along, I decided to complete it and save the corrected ends for another project.

Rob

          

On Dec 3, 2020, at 9:09 AM, Chuck Cover <chuck.cover@...> wrote:

Nice job Rob.  I would like to hear how you scratch built the ends.  Thanks

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM



Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] LV 9951 series, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Thanks, Elden. It’s a simple but impressive car.

Sadly, I have no more info. I built the car years ago pretty much right from the RedBall instructions. Only later did I find a photo of the prototype, IIRC in a Train Shed cyclopedia … it’s the same photo as started this thread. I remember replacing the 36” wheelsets in the passenger trucks with 33” sets to get the height to come out acceptable. The only thing I’ve done since is convert it to Kadee couplers. There’s no underbody detail at all. Fortunately the topsides of the prototype are rather simple too, so the lack of a lot of detail is correct. If I find out much more I’ll probably be forced to rebuild it!    :-((

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Dec 3, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Nice job, Daniel!
 
Do you have any more info on these cars?
 
Elden Gatwood
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Daniel A. Mitchell
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2020 3:24 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] LV 9951 series, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
 
As stated earlier, here’s my photo of the HO Redball LV 56’ well-hole flat ...
 
<image001.jpg>
 
I’ll make one correction to my earlier post … the deck is imbossed cardstock. As stated the ends and sides are soft metal castings, the frame is wood, with blocks for the ends and stips for the sides. The trucks are pasenger trucks fitted with smaller 33” wheelsets. Detailing is basic, as I had no better info at the time. The load is also Redball, a new crane bridge. I built this car perhaps 40 years ago, and it’s seen a lot of service.
 
Dan Mitchell
==========


On Nov 20, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:
 
Mine, built from a quite old kit (ca. 1960), has wooden blocks for the end platforms, and soft metal overlays for the top decks, sides, and ends. NO trucks came with it. I used modified 3-axle passenger trucks. I’ll try to post a photo of the model soon.
 
Dan Mitchell
==========


On Nov 20, 2020, at 11:11 AM, Jon Miller <atsfus@...> wrote:
 
On 11/20/2020 6:57 AM, Daniel A. Mitchell wrote:
Redball used to offer a wood & metal kit of this car in HO scale. I have one. It’s a bit crude by modern standards, but with a little work makes an unusual and quite presentable model.
 
Dan Mitchell
    I have one of these.  I believe the sides are card-stock.  The wheels in the RB trucks are 28".
-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, 
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS
 
 



Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

vapeurchapelon
 

Hello Bruce,
 
beautyful car! Are these trucks the good old Athearn or something different? (They seem to look sharper but also lack brake shoes.)
 
Many greetings
 
Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953
 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 03. Dezember 2020 um 18:24 Uhr
Von: "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...>
An: "main@RealSTMFC.groups.io" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Betreff: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
Brian, Folks,
 
Yes, I did make some changes to the F&C kit that are detailed in the files of the PRRPro group. Broadly, these consisted of removing the bumps on the end decks (that resulted from someone copying a C&O Greenville Car Company flat), doing some putty and fill work on the decks, and adding some additional details such as the external brake line, drilling holes on both sides of the car for that line, removing the resin well decks and adding a laser cut wood deck (AMB), and adding rivets to the steel deck. 
 
The resin sill steps on this car are stupidly fragile, so I am in the process of making brass steps.
 
Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
 
 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Carlson via groups.io <prrk41361@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 10:51 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
 
Not the F33 requires several changes if using the F&C kit as enumerated by Bruce Smith if I recall. I hope it was Bruce. It a reason mine is still languishing in the box. 
 
Brian J. Carlson 
 
On Dec 3, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:
 


Group;

 

One more.  This guy is easily modeled with the F&C kit, or Railworks brass model. 

 

The PRR F33 also showed up in the most unlikely places.  I don’t have on hand all the photos I once had of them all over the country.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 2:46 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

This is the BM car in question, as the F&C kit.  It is a really different, fun build.

 

And this beast.  Not everyone knows, the FD2 “Queen Mary” was one of the biggest flat cars (depressed center) in existence, built to use 4 huge trucks off of PRR long distance tenders, for ONE load (with expectations for others).  More unknown is this well hole flat, PRR class FW1, built for ONE load, to use with those same trucks.  They lifted off the FD2 body, then plopped this deep well hole body on top.  Check out THAT load!

 

Whew.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:49 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 6, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

How about this combo of well car AND depressed center flat?

 

It used a GSC casting to combine load-bearing well floor with depressed well, to boot.

 

Load distributed on end decks and side sills.

 

USS Homestead Works was a particularly good customer.

 

Listed as “FD”.

 

Hmmmm.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:37 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 5, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Then there are these guys.

 

I DARE you to build one. (The F&C kit is a great start).  Prepare for some interesting fabrications!

 

PRR took a handful of regular F25, and took the floor out and replaced it with thinner cross bars as shown in F25C interior. (Thanks to the great Craig Bossler)

 

This dropped the load inches closer to the floor, but not suspended, but on a load-bearing floor.  Note how load is secured in 435482.

 

The diagonal plate or tank head loaders did the same thing, but with the additions of the racks onto which the load rested, on that one side of the cars.

 

These cars were heavily notated about load distribution, as you can guess.

 

The B&M cars that served GE were a hybrid of well and well hole.  (F&C kit, also)  They had a non-load-bearing well, being more of a protection for the bottom of the load, than something bearing weight.  Those bore the load entirely on the end decking, by use of long beams that spanned the length of the car.  Take a look at that kit, for a really nice build.

 

“FW”, indeed.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:35 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 4, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

Then there are the well cars with no floor, like the FN.

 

Here is Jack Consoli’s fabulous rendition (featured in TKM) in which the load is both suspended and distributed to side sills and ends, but blocked inside the well with distribution to the end members shown in the photo of 470026. Yes, stenciled merely as “FW”.

 

The F37B got the very tallest loads that could be accommodated on a railroad.  Obviously they traveled widely, since nothing else could do what they did.

 

Fascinating.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:14 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 2, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

One of the interesting engineering problems in those days was how to distribute a load across the car without destroying the car.

 

For well cars with floors that were load-bearing, it generally involved distributing part of the load to the inside of the car where the load attached, but also to the (generally) more rugged (and deeper) side sill, by means of a series of load-bearing shapes connecting well bottom/side cross members, to the outside sill.

 

RDG 99009 is one of those. This load is clearly resting on the floor.  No load is transferred to the ends or side sills.

 

But, Here are a couple shots illustrating a load being transferred to the side sill:

 

Concentration of a load on the floor would punch through the generally thin or shallow cross bearers in these cars.  The Otis load is being spread out broadly.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:55 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

I thought maybe one or two of you would be interested in this murky subject:

 

There are at least several kinds of well cars, interestingly not separated in the AAR classification, which just lumps them together as “FW” – “Flat well-hole car for special transportation of plate glass, etc.  This car is a flat car with hole in middle to enable lading to be dropped down on account of clearance limits.”

 

Clear as mud. 

 

To a shipper that has a vertically oversized load to ship, there are some important considerations I would want to know.  Does the car have a floor in the well?  How far is it from the rails?  Is the floor load bearing?  If my load added on top of that still exceeds clearance, are portions of the floor removable in order to drop it closer to the rail without touching (especially important in the shipment of giant rings or circular ductwork or piping/valves)?  If this still doesn’t work, is there a car that has no floor that I could suspend the load into, that would work?  We are literally talking inches here….

 

None of that is clear in an AAR classification, forcing one to look at each car in detail, a shipper’s nightmare.

 

I can’t answer why, but they never did fully flesh this out.

 

PRR clearly had shippers in mind when they put more info in the ORER under each car, as notes (more on that in a follow-on).

 

Attached, the earliest PRR well hole car, the FN, with no floor, and the FNA with a nominal floor that can be removed if needed.  It is clearly not a load bearing floor. 

 

The last photo is interesting.  The shipper needs both flooring partially (at the least) removed, AND a tilt to the load to get it within clearance limits.  They have clearly supported the edges of the load above the rails by installing supports beneath on either side of the rim.  How’s THAT for an innovative solution?

 

These guys were smart!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 12:43 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

Blockedhttps://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3607476

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Car built 1924, photo taken 1938 or later.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

 

<PRR F33 2-28-65.jpg>
<PRR F33 47009x with load.JPG>
<PRR F33 470082 USS Homestead.tif>
<PRR F33 470091 PLE F11 6890 UEF New Castle 1 c1946.jpg>
<PRR F33 470091 PLE F11 6890 UEF New Castle 1a c1946.JPG>
<PRR F33 470091 PLE F11 6890 UEF New Castle 2 c1946 (002).jpg>


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Bruce Smith
 

Lou,

Lots of information, much of it in shorthand!
  • car inspection status (and any defects found)
  • car contents
  • block or track for switching
  • destination and spot at destination (SB3/4 - Smith Brewing, track 3, door 4 for example)
  • and any other information needed by people workuning with the car.
Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Louis Adler <lsainnwa@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 9:16 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Another means of adding chalk markings
 
Not having any knowledge of chalk mark content, what would be typical information conveyed by a chalk mark?  Modeling 1955 means that I need to add them to some of my rolling stock.  TIA

Lou Adler


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

Tony Thompson
 

Anything and everything a switchman needed to know: track numbers, outbound train numbers, consignee, repair or cleaning needs, date, time, MT or loaded, etc. Problem is, it’s mostly in local code or abbreviations, so you can’t really decode it. But that’s good news too: write almost anything!
Tony Thompson 


On Dec 3, 2020, at 7:16 AM, Louis Adler <lsainnwa@...> wrote:

Not having any knowledge of chalk mark content, what would be typical information conveyed by a chalk mark?  Modeling 1955 means that I need to add them to some of my rolling stock.  TIA

Lou Adler


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

Bruce Smith
 

Brian, Folks,

Yes, I did make some changes to the F&C kit that are detailed in the files of the PRRPro group. Broadly, these consisted of removing the bumps on the end decks (that resulted from someone copying a C&O Greenville Car Company flat), doing some putty and fill work on the decks, and adding some additional details such as the external brake line, drilling holes on both sides of the car for that line, removing the resin well decks and adding a laser cut wood deck (AMB), and adding rivets to the steel deck. 

The resin sill steps on this car are stupidly fragile, so I am in the process of making brass steps.

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Carlson via groups.io <prrk41361@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 10:51 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)
 
Not the F33 requires several changes if using the F&C kit as enumerated by Bruce Smith if I recall. I hope it was Bruce. It a reason mine is still languishing in the box. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Dec 3, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:



Group;

 

One more.  This guy is easily modeled with the F&C kit, or Railworks brass model. 

 

The PRR F33 also showed up in the most unlikely places.  I don’t have on hand all the photos I once had of them all over the country.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 2:46 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

This is the BM car in question, as the F&C kit.  It is a really different, fun build.

 

And this beast.  Not everyone knows, the FD2 “Queen Mary” was one of the biggest flat cars (depressed center) in existence, built to use 4 huge trucks off of PRR long distance tenders, for ONE load (with expectations for others).  More unknown is this well hole flat, PRR class FW1, built for ONE load, to use with those same trucks.  They lifted off the FD2 body, then plopped this deep well hole body on top.  Check out THAT load!

 

Whew.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:49 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 6, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

How about this combo of well car AND depressed center flat?

 

It used a GSC casting to combine load-bearing well floor with depressed well, to boot.

 

Load distributed on end decks and side sills.

 

USS Homestead Works was a particularly good customer.

 

Listed as “FD”.

 

Hmmmm.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:37 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 5, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Then there are these guys.

 

I DARE you to build one. (The F&C kit is a great start).  Prepare for some interesting fabrications!

 

PRR took a handful of regular F25, and took the floor out and replaced it with thinner cross bars as shown in F25C interior. (Thanks to the great Craig Bossler)

 

This dropped the load inches closer to the floor, but not suspended, but on a load-bearing floor.  Note how load is secured in 435482.

 

The diagonal plate or tank head loaders did the same thing, but with the additions of the racks onto which the load rested, on that one side of the cars.

 

These cars were heavily notated about load distribution, as you can guess.

 

The B&M cars that served GE were a hybrid of well and well hole.  (F&C kit, also)  They had a non-load-bearing well, being more of a protection for the bottom of the load, than something bearing weight.  Those bore the load entirely on the end decking, by use of long beams that spanned the length of the car.  Take a look at that kit, for a really nice build.

 

“FW”, indeed.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:35 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 4, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

Then there are the well cars with no floor, like the FN.

 

Here is Jack Consoli’s fabulous rendition (featured in TKM) in which the load is both suspended and distributed to side sills and ends, but blocked inside the well with distribution to the end members shown in the photo of 470026. Yes, stenciled merely as “FW”.

 

The F37B got the very tallest loads that could be accommodated on a railroad.  Obviously they traveled widely, since nothing else could do what they did.

 

Fascinating.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:14 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 2, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

One of the interesting engineering problems in those days was how to distribute a load across the car without destroying the car.

 

For well cars with floors that were load-bearing, it generally involved distributing part of the load to the inside of the car where the load attached, but also to the (generally) more rugged (and deeper) side sill, by means of a series of load-bearing shapes connecting well bottom/side cross members, to the outside sill.

 

RDG 99009 is one of those. This load is clearly resting on the floor.  No load is transferred to the ends or side sills.

 

But, Here are a couple shots illustrating a load being transferred to the side sill:

 

Concentration of a load on the floor would punch through the generally thin or shallow cross bearers in these cars.  The Otis load is being spread out broadly.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:55 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

I thought maybe one or two of you would be interested in this murky subject:

 

There are at least several kinds of well cars, interestingly not separated in the AAR classification, which just lumps them together as “FW” – “Flat well-hole car for special transportation of plate glass, etc.  This car is a flat car with hole in middle to enable lading to be dropped down on account of clearance limits.”

 

Clear as mud. 

 

To a shipper that has a vertically oversized load to ship, there are some important considerations I would want to know.  Does the car have a floor in the well?  How far is it from the rails?  Is the floor load bearing?  If my load added on top of that still exceeds clearance, are portions of the floor removable in order to drop it closer to the rail without touching (especially important in the shipment of giant rings or circular ductwork or piping/valves)?  If this still doesn’t work, is there a car that has no floor that I could suspend the load into, that would work?  We are literally talking inches here….

 

None of that is clear in an AAR classification, forcing one to look at each car in detail, a shipper’s nightmare.

 

I can’t answer why, but they never did fully flesh this out.

 

PRR clearly had shippers in mind when they put more info in the ORER under each car, as notes (more on that in a follow-on).

 

Attached, the earliest PRR well hole car, the FN, with no floor, and the FNA with a nominal floor that can be removed if needed.  It is clearly not a load bearing floor. 

 

The last photo is interesting.  The shipper needs both flooring partially (at the least) removed, AND a tilt to the load to get it within clearance limits.  They have clearly supported the edges of the load above the rails by installing supports beneath on either side of the rim.  How’s THAT for an innovative solution?

 

These guys were smart!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 12:43 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

Blockedhttps://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3607476

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Car built 1924, photo taken 1938 or later.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

<PRR F33 2-28-65.jpg>
<PRR F33 47009x with load.JPG>
<PRR F33 470082 USS Homestead.tif>
<PRR F33 470091 PLE F11 6890 UEF New Castle 1 c1946.jpg>
<PRR F33 470091 PLE F11 6890 UEF New Castle 1a c1946.JPG>
<PRR F33 470091 PLE F11 6890 UEF New Castle 2 c1946 (002).jpg>


Re: Another means of adding chalk markings

John Riddell
 

Lou

 

Here is an article on chalk marks that may help

 

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/CPR/general/chalk_it_up.htm

 

John Riddell

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: Ann Arbor Accurail kitbash

Chuck Cover
 

Nice job Rob.  I would like to hear how you scratch built the ends.  Thanks

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM

_._,_._,_


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

Todd Sullivan
 

Elden,

Regarding your comments about well flat designs and deciphering ORER entries, in my clerking experience, which included working Car Distributor (essentially the car inventory & supply mgr) for 2 weeks, I found that each industry's traffic manager had a pretty good working knowledge of the cars his company needed on a regular basis.  When I received calls requesting empties for loading, the requests were usually very specific down to the individual car or series number.  Also, the Car Distributor had a pretty good knowledge of both A) car types ordinarily found on the property (we were a terminal switching outfit) and B) how to decipher the contents of the ORER.  As a side note, after working as a clerk in the yard for about 6 months, if you gave me a valid initial and number combination for one of our area RRs, I could give a physical description of the car and what it was normally used for.

Todd Sullivan


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

Brian Carlson
 

Not the F33 requires several changes if using the F&C kit as enumerated by Bruce Smith if I recall. I hope it was Bruce. It a reason mine is still languishing in the box. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Dec 3, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:



Group;

 

One more.  This guy is easily modeled with the F&C kit, or Railworks brass model. 

 

The PRR F33 also showed up in the most unlikely places.  I don’t have on hand all the photos I once had of them all over the country.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 2:46 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 8, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

This is the BM car in question, as the F&C kit.  It is a really different, fun build.

 

And this beast.  Not everyone knows, the FD2 “Queen Mary” was one of the biggest flat cars (depressed center) in existence, built to use 4 huge trucks off of PRR long distance tenders, for ONE load (with expectations for others).  More unknown is this well hole flat, PRR class FW1, built for ONE load, to use with those same trucks.  They lifted off the FD2 body, then plopped this deep well hole body on top.  Check out THAT load!

 

Whew.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:49 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 6, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

How about this combo of well car AND depressed center flat?

 

It used a GSC casting to combine load-bearing well floor with depressed well, to boot.

 

Load distributed on end decks and side sills.

 

USS Homestead Works was a particularly good customer.

 

Listed as “FD”.

 

Hmmmm.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:37 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 5, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Then there are these guys.

 

I DARE you to build one. (The F&C kit is a great start).  Prepare for some interesting fabrications!

 

PRR took a handful of regular F25, and took the floor out and replaced it with thinner cross bars as shown in F25C interior. (Thanks to the great Craig Bossler)

 

This dropped the load inches closer to the floor, but not suspended, but on a load-bearing floor.  Note how load is secured in 435482.

 

The diagonal plate or tank head loaders did the same thing, but with the additions of the racks onto which the load rested, on that one side of the cars.

 

These cars were heavily notated about load distribution, as you can guess.

 

The B&M cars that served GE were a hybrid of well and well hole.  (F&C kit, also)  They had a non-load-bearing well, being more of a protection for the bottom of the load, than something bearing weight.  Those bore the load entirely on the end decking, by use of long beams that spanned the length of the car.  Take a look at that kit, for a really nice build.

 

“FW”, indeed.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:35 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 4, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

Then there are the well cars with no floor, like the FN.

 

Here is Jack Consoli’s fabulous rendition (featured in TKM) in which the load is both suspended and distributed to side sills and ends, but blocked inside the well with distribution to the end members shown in the photo of 470026. Yes, stenciled merely as “FW”.

 

The F37B got the very tallest loads that could be accommodated on a railroad.  Obviously they traveled widely, since nothing else could do what they did.

 

Fascinating.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:14 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff pt 2, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

One of the interesting engineering problems in those days was how to distribute a load across the car without destroying the car.

 

For well cars with floors that were load-bearing, it generally involved distributing part of the load to the inside of the car where the load attached, but also to the (generally) more rugged (and deeper) side sill, by means of a series of load-bearing shapes connecting well bottom/side cross members, to the outside sill.

 

RDG 99009 is one of those. This load is clearly resting on the floor.  No load is transferred to the ends or side sills.

 

But, Here are a couple shots illustrating a load being transferred to the side sill:

 

Concentration of a load on the floor would punch through the generally thin or shallow cross bearers in these cars.  The Otis load is being spread out broadly.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 9:55 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] More boring well car stuff, was: Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Group;

 

I thought maybe one or two of you would be interested in this murky subject:

 

There are at least several kinds of well cars, interestingly not separated in the AAR classification, which just lumps them together as “FW” – “Flat well-hole car for special transportation of plate glass, etc.  This car is a flat car with hole in middle to enable lading to be dropped down on account of clearance limits.”

 

Clear as mud. 

 

To a shipper that has a vertically oversized load to ship, there are some important considerations I would want to know.  Does the car have a floor in the well?  How far is it from the rails?  Is the floor load bearing?  If my load added on top of that still exceeds clearance, are portions of the floor removable in order to drop it closer to the rail without touching (especially important in the shipment of giant rings or circular ductwork or piping/valves)?  If this still doesn’t work, is there a car that has no floor that I could suspend the load into, that would work?  We are literally talking inches here….

 

None of that is clear in an AAR classification, forcing one to look at each car in detail, a shipper’s nightmare.

 

I can’t answer why, but they never did fully flesh this out.

 

PRR clearly had shippers in mind when they put more info in the ORER under each car, as notes (more on that in a follow-on).

 

Attached, the earliest PRR well hole car, the FN, with no floor, and the FNA with a nominal floor that can be removed if needed.  It is clearly not a load bearing floor. 

 

The last photo is interesting.  The shipper needs both flooring partially (at the least) removed, AND a tilt to the load to get it within clearance limits.  They have clearly supported the edges of the load above the rails by installing supports beneath on either side of the rim.  How’s THAT for an innovative solution?

 

These guys were smart!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 12:43 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

 

Photo: Reading Well Hole Flat Car 99009 (Undated)

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

Blockedhttps://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3607476

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Car built 1924, photo taken 1938 or later.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

<PRR F33 2-28-65.jpg>
<PRR F33 47009x with load.JPG>
<PRR F33 470082 USS Homestead.tif>
<PRR F33 470091 PLE F11 6890 UEF New Castle 1 c1946.jpg>
<PRR F33 470091 PLE F11 6890 UEF New Castle 1a c1946.JPG>
<PRR F33 470091 PLE F11 6890 UEF New Castle 2 c1946 (002).jpg>


Re: Ann Arbor Accurail kitbash

Paul Doggett
 

Rob

That’s going to look really good when it’s finished.

Paul Doggett.   England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 

On 3 Dec 2020, at 16:47, Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

Thought I'd post an updated photo of my kitbash of one of the Ann Arbor 73750 series boxcars.  It uses the 4300 series Accurail boxcar, with modified door rollers, top plate, and strap bracing on the end panels.  The Yarmouth Hutchins roof, a wood running board and their 16" spacing 7 rung ladders (modified for the car ends) were also used.   The ends were scratch built (before I did the 3d drawing of the replacement end).   

Waiting for the Miner power brake parts to arrive.

Rob

Attachments:


Re: Etched brass parts was Re: [RealSTMFC] Frisco “Sawtooth” boxcar photo

radiodial868
 

If you've ever built any of YMW's runningboard end supports, or the brake step platform, you know how complex, delicate yet strong they are once bent along their little fold lines. 
I was thinking something like this little sketch I just threw together on my phone. The blue is the bend lines. The YMW etched bend lines can go either way, so could represent many styles. The 'feet" would be easily tweaked with a needlenose to match any odd roof angle or irregularity encountered.

-------------------
RJ Dial

Mendocino, CA

3501 - 3520 of 183260