Date   

Re: Carbon black hopper reweigh

Guy Wilber
 



Bruce Smith wrote:

“Since I model 1944, that car will need to be reweighed. I realize that a car could be reweighed by any road when due, but typically, the home shops tried to get that done. Any idea of where (and the scale code) these UCBX hoppers were reweighed?”

The July, 1945 ORER lists the following home points for United Carbon Company:  Borger, Texas; Indiana Harbor, Indiana; Kosmos, Texas; Milton, Pennsylvania; Sanford, Texas; Sheerin, Texas; Stinnett, Texas; Sunray, Texas; United, Texas.

I also noticed a few photos where there does not appear to be a reweigh. Were these cars ever not subject to the reweigh requirements?”

Prior to 1947 Type LO cars were not specifically called out within the reweigh rules; Interchange Rule 30 and Car Service Rule 11.  The reweigh interval was 30 months once the classification was added to the existing list.  This may have been a factor regarding the lack of reweigh stenciling within the photos, though I would be skeptical.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada 


Carbon black hopper reweigh

Bruce Smith
 

Folks,

I'm finally finishing my RailShops Carbon Black covered hopper. I'm planning on lettering it for United Carbon Company (UCBX) for a pre-WWII built car using Mount Vernon Shops decals. Those decals and the photos in both the Mainline Modeler and RMJ articles on these cars show NEW stencils almost exclusively. Since I model 1944, that car will need to be reweighed. I realize that a car could be reweighed by any road when due, but typically, the home shops tried to get that done. Any idea of where (and the scale code) these UCBX hoppers were reweighed?

I also noticed a few photos where there does not appear to be a reweigh. Were these cars ever not subject to the reweigh requirements?

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: Hindsight 20/20 5.0

William Hirt
 

The Jacksonville Sanborn maps updated through 1949 are available on the Library of Congress web site:

Here is the link to Volume 1a:

<https://www.loc.gov/item/sanborn01286_008/>

Here is the link to Volume 4:

<https://www.loc.gov/item/sanborn01286_010/>

The other updated Volumes thorough 1949 are not available on online. Earlier years (1884 to 1913) are also available.

The Library of Congress is gradually scanning their entire collection to place online. They say in the collection information they do not post anything beyond a copyright date of 1922, but there are exceptions I have found like the above.

Bill Hirt

On 12/26/2020 3:39 PM, rwilson1056 via groups.io wrote:
Found the National Stocktard for Jacksonville FL in one of the Sanborns for the city, see attached
_._,_._,_


Re: Photo: Swift & Company Shed

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Forgot to mention, if you zoom in on the window, you can see a little bit of the interior of the shack, might be the edge of a roller shutter desk that is hopelessly crowded up with 'stuff' of some sort.
 
Also, note that we are looking a a four-car cut of reefers, and the three furthest from the camera have very obvious chalk marks, but the one car closest to the camera does NOT have any chalk marks. Further evidence that the car closest to us may not have moved in a very long time...
 
Claus Schlund
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2020 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Swift & Company Shed

Hi List Members,
 
For everyone's convenience, I will put the web link back into the conversation...
 
 
The date is given at the web site as: [1935?]
 
I will say that if you zoom in on the image, the sign immediately above the door reads - you guessed it - 1935! I suggest it might be a street address number, but maybe the library researchers mistook it as being the year?
 
I will also add that the shed looks to be very recent construction, the wood is in top-notch shape, not dirty nor dog-eared nor weathered to any detectable extent.
 
Someone mentioned there may be two tracks under the shed, but I do not think that to be the case. I suspect there is an enclosed annex to the back end of the shack that extends under the shed - perhaps the shed covers this annex and/or a loading platform beyond the annex to provide shelter from the elements?
 
Also notice that the poster on the end of the car is not just pasted on, it is nicely framed with wood that has 45 degree beveled corners, and the poster appears to have been put up there is some amount of care to make for a good-looking presentation. Contrast this with the other pasted-up bills that are in the image. This makes me think the car closest to the camera is there to stay.
 
I like how the siding used to make up the sides of the shed appear to be random width boards!
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2020 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Swift & Company Shed

This location is about a block from the Denver Union Station. A map that came with the book "Denver's Railroads" shows the L.J. Brown hide house, but where the Swift shack and shed are located in the photo is called out as "Country Club Dist[ribution] Co. Interestingly, the track (or tracks - are there two under the shed? I think so.) are not shown on that map, which shows every track that existed, and I mean every track. The map is said to be from "about 1936." 

Another map from the same book, from "a time when the narrow gauge South Park and Clear Creek Lines were still operating," again show no tracks but does show a building outline that is consistent with the photo. The building is labeled "KC Bag Co." I believe the South Park line was abandoned in 1937.

I suspect the photo is from well before 1935, and even the library questions that date. The freight cars in the background seem to support this.

I tend to agree that the reefer closest to the camera is permanently parked there. The condition of the paint compared to the others is one give-away in my opinion. Note also the plethora of chalk marks on the others, but none on the first car.

Swift had a large packing plant a few miles away from this location so I suspect suspect something was shipped from the packing plant to this location for use or transshipment in the immediate area. This is very close to downtown Denver.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Parks via groups.io <BPARKS_43@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Dec 26, 2020 3:04 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Swift & Company Shed

This may end up being one of those photos that we never figure out.

Dave Parker questions the date of the photo, and the age of the cars would suggest it was more around WWI.  Additionally, from what I could determine, the girl on the poster on the end car was used on multiple posters form around 1900 through WWI (may have been used later, but I couldn't find any dated later).

The fact that the poster is on the car, and not the building, is very interesting.  As far as I know, that would make the car ineligible for interchange, which lends weight to Ken Akerboom's comment about the cars possibly being used for "permanent" storage.  If that was the case, then 1935 would be probable for the date of the photo.

I am leaning towards agreeing with Douglass Harding that this structure has to do with byproducts.  His observations about that are logical.

Finally, the brick chimney looks like it was built prior to the covering over the track.  My guess is it was for heating in the building.  It almost looks like it is used to help hold up the shed, but you can see a partial gap at its top, which says to me it is not holding any of the load.  Makes me wonder if the chimney was still in use at this time.  If it was, then some (or all) of the smoke would end up under the shed.

Probably the best way to resolve all of this is if anyone can determine anything based on the cars in the background.  Will be interesting to follow other's comments on this one.
--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida


Re: Photo: Swift & Company Shed

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi List Members,
 
For everyone's convenience, I will put the web link back into the conversation...
 
 
The date is given at the web site as: [1935?]
 
I will say that if you zoom in on the image, the sign immediately above the door reads - you guessed it - 1935! I suggest it might be a street address number, but maybe the library researchers mistook it as being the year?
 
I will also add that the shed looks to be very recent construction, the wood is in top-notch shape, not dirty nor dog-eared nor weathered to any detectable extent.
 
Someone mentioned there may be two tracks under the shed, but I do not think that to be the case. I suspect there is an enclosed annex to the back end of the shack that extends under the shed - perhaps the shed covers this annex and/or a loading platform beyond the annex to provide shelter from the elements?
 
Also notice that the poster on the end of the car is not just pasted on, it is nicely framed with wood that has 45 degree beveled corners, and the poster appears to have been put up there is some amount of care to make for a good-looking presentation. Contrast this with the other pasted-up bills that are in the image. This makes me think the car closest to the camera is there to stay.
 
I like how the siding used to make up the sides of the shed appear to be random width boards!
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2020 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Swift & Company Shed

This location is about a block from the Denver Union Station. A map that came with the book "Denver's Railroads" shows the L.J. Brown hide house, but where the Swift shack and shed are located in the photo is called out as "Country Club Dist[ribution] Co. Interestingly, the track (or tracks - are there two under the shed? I think so.) are not shown on that map, which shows every track that existed, and I mean every track. The map is said to be from "about 1936." 

Another map from the same book, from "a time when the narrow gauge South Park and Clear Creek Lines were still operating," again show no tracks but does show a building outline that is consistent with the photo. The building is labeled "KC Bag Co." I believe the South Park line was abandoned in 1937.

I suspect the photo is from well before 1935, and even the library questions that date. The freight cars in the background seem to support this.

I tend to agree that the reefer closest to the camera is permanently parked there. The condition of the paint compared to the others is one give-away in my opinion. Note also the plethora of chalk marks on the others, but none on the first car.

Swift had a large packing plant a few miles away from this location so I suspect suspect something was shipped from the packing plant to this location for use or transshipment in the immediate area. This is very close to downtown Denver.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Parks via groups.io <BPARKS_43@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Dec 26, 2020 3:04 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Swift & Company Shed

This may end up being one of those photos that we never figure out.

Dave Parker questions the date of the photo, and the age of the cars would suggest it was more around WWI.  Additionally, from what I could determine, the girl on the poster on the end car was used on multiple posters form around 1900 through WWI (may have been used later, but I couldn't find any dated later).

The fact that the poster is on the car, and not the building, is very interesting.  As far as I know, that would make the car ineligible for interchange, which lends weight to Ken Akerboom's comment about the cars possibly being used for "permanent" storage.  If that was the case, then 1935 would be probable for the date of the photo.

I am leaning towards agreeing with Douglass Harding that this structure has to do with byproducts.  His observations about that are logical.

Finally, the brick chimney looks like it was built prior to the covering over the track.  My guess is it was for heating in the building.  It almost looks like it is used to help hold up the shed, but you can see a partial gap at its top, which says to me it is not holding any of the load.  Makes me wonder if the chimney was still in use at this time.  If it was, then some (or all) of the smoke would end up under the shed.

Probably the best way to resolve all of this is if anyone can determine anything based on the cars in the background.  Will be interesting to follow other's comments on this one.
--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida


Re: Photo: Swift & Company Shed

Dave Parker
 

Remember that the only reason to think it might be 1935 is that whoever logged it into the DPL thought that was a plausible date -- thus the "?" after it.  We have seen this kind of guesswork over and over at various museums and historical societies, where the personnel (often volunteer) don't have any background in railroads or freight cars.  That's not a criticism; if I had to guess the date of a photo of a steamship, I would almost certainly get it wrong.

The poster depicts the "Little Swift's Cook" advertising campaign.  Although not an exhaustive search, I can find many examples of similar ads with given dates ranging from 1902 to 1916, but none later.

In conjunction with the apparent pre-SAA of all of the cars in the image, I'd argue that the best guess for a photo date here is still pre-WW1.  Occam's razor.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Re: Photo: Swift & Company Shed

Richard Townsend
 

This location is about a block from the Denver Union Station. A map that came with the book "Denver's Railroads" shows the L.J. Brown hide house, but where the Swift shack and shed are located in the photo is called out as "Country Club Dist[ribution] Co. Interestingly, the track (or tracks - are there two under the shed? I think so.) are not shown on that map, which shows every track that existed, and I mean every track. The map is said to be from "about 1936." 

Another map from the same book, from "a time when the narrow gauge South Park and Clear Creek Lines were still operating," again show no tracks but does show a building outline that is consistent with the photo. The building is labeled "KC Bag Co." I believe the South Park line was abandoned in 1937.

I suspect the photo is from well before 1935, and even the library questions that date. The freight cars in the background seem to support this.

I tend to agree that the reefer closest to the camera is permanently parked there. The condition of the paint compared to the others is one give-away in my opinion. Note also the plethora of chalk marks on the others, but none on the first car.

Swift had a large packing plant a few miles away from this location so I suspect suspect something was shipped from the packing plant to this location for use or transshipment in the immediate area. This is very close to downtown Denver.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Parks via groups.io <BPARKS_43@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Dec 26, 2020 3:04 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Swift & Company Shed

This may end up being one of those photos that we never figure out.

Dave Parker questions the date of the photo, and the age of the cars would suggest it was more around WWI.  Additionally, from what I could determine, the girl on the poster on the end car was used on multiple posters form around 1900 through WWI (may have been used later, but I couldn't find any dated later).

The fact that the poster is on the car, and not the building, is very interesting.  As far as I know, that would make the car ineligible for interchange, which lends weight to Ken Akerboom's comment about the cars possibly being used for "permanent" storage.  If that was the case, then 1935 would be probable for the date of the photo.

I am leaning towards agreeing with Douglass Harding that this structure has to do with byproducts.  His observations about that are logical.

Finally, the brick chimney looks like it was built prior to the covering over the track.  My guess is it was for heating in the building.  It almost looks like it is used to help hold up the shed, but you can see a partial gap at its top, which says to me it is not holding any of the load.  Makes me wonder if the chimney was still in use at this time.  If it was, then some (or all) of the smoke would end up under the shed.

Probably the best way to resolve all of this is if anyone can determine anything based on the cars in the background.  Will be interesting to follow other's comments on this one.
--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida


Re: Photo: Swift & Company Shed

Eric Hansmann
 

None of the reefers here seem to have a ladder or ladder grabs on the right corner. I don’t see any freight cars this side of the bridge in this scene with sill steps under the left side corner.

I would rule out a 1930s photo date 

Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


On Dec 26, 2020, at 5:04 PM, Bill Parks via groups.io <BPARKS_43@...> wrote:

This may end up being one of those photos that we never figure out.

Dave Parker questions the date of the photo, and the age of the cars would suggest it was more around WWI.  Additionally, from what I could determine, the girl on the poster on the end car was used on multiple posters form around 1900 through WWI (may have been used later, but I couldn't find any dated later).

The fact that the poster is on the car, and not the building, is very interesting.  As far as I know, that would make the car ineligible for interchange, which lends weight to Ken Akerboom's comment about the cars possibly being used for "permanent" storage.  If that was the case, then 1935 would be probable for the date of the photo.

I am leaning towards agreeing with Douglass Harding that this structure has to do with byproducts.  His observations about that are logical.

Finally, the brick chimney looks like it was built prior to the covering over the track.  My guess is it was for heating in the building.  It almost looks like it is used to help hold up the shed, but you can see a partial gap at its top, which says to me it is not holding any of the load.  Makes me wonder if the chimney was still in use at this time.  If it was, then some (or all) of the smoke would end up under the shed.

Probably the best way to resolve all of this is if anyone can determine anything based on the cars in the background.  Will be interesting to follow other's comments on this one.
--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida
_._,_._,


Re: Photo: Swift & Company Shed

Bill Parks
 
Edited

This may end up being one of those photos that we never figure out.

Dave Parker questions the date of the photo, and the age of the cars would suggest it was more around WWI.  Additionally, from what I could determine, the girl on the poster on the end car was used on multiple posters form around 1900 through WWI (may have been used later, but I couldn't find any dated later).

The fact that the poster is on the car, and not the building, is very interesting.  As far as I know, that would make the car ineligible for interchange, which lends weight to Ken Akerboom's comment about the cars possibly being used for "permanent" storage.  If that was the case, then 1935 would be probable for the date of the photo.

I am leaning towards agreeing with Douglass Harding that this structure has to do with byproducts.  His observations about that are logical.

Finally, the brick chimney looks like it was built prior to the covering over the track.  My guess is it was for heating in the building.  It almost looks like it is used to help hold up the shed, but you can see a partial gap at its top (not sure if it is just outside of the shed or not), which says to me it is not holding any of the load.  Makes me wonder if the chimney was still in use at this time.  If it was, then some (or all) of the smoke would end up under the shed.

Probably the best way to resolve all of this is if anyone can determine anything based on the cars in the background.  Will be interesting to follow other's comments on this one.
--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida


Re: Photo: Swift & Company Shed

james murrie
 

One of the ads on the ties in front of the cars says "anti trust", possibly a reference to the American Tobacco Co (Duke family) which was broken up by the Feds in 1911.
The Duke family controlled 94% of the cigarettes made in the world plus chewing tobacco, textiles, tin, and hydo electric power (Duke Power).
Jim Murrie
Durham NC


Re: Photo: Swift & Company Shed

akerboomk
 

An ad poster for Swift and Company is on the front of the building;

 

To me, it looks like it is on the end of the car itself (could be the car is permanent???)

Reporting marks end in L and 9 (not much to go on, but note they dont end in X for private line)


--
Ken Akerboom


Re: Photo: Swift & Company Shed

Douglas Harding
 

I’m suspect this is a building related to byproducts from Swift. Note the many Swift Wool Soap signs. There are burlap sacks under the loading dock, perhaps containing wool. The building next door is a Hide and Wool buyer. The reefers are old, note the distressed wood siding and heavy salt stains. They probably contain tallow used in making soap. At least two of the reefers have the early Swift lettering scheme, similar to what is visible in the photo of 7749.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2020 3:25 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Swift & Company Shed

 

Hi Bob,

 

Great image you found there!

 

I especially like the two wildly disparate types of end-of-track bumpers that are right next to one another.

 

Claus Schlund

 

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2020 3:34 PM

Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Swift & Company Shed

 

For some reason the little frame building with the brick chimney reminds me of a paper barbershop sold by Carsten's decades ago in a book of paper buildings you could cut out and assemble. That really dates me. 

 

Pat Wade

Santna Barbara, CA

 

On Sat, Dec 26, 2020 at 12:21 PM Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Photo: Swift & Company Shed

A photo from the Denver Public Library:

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll21/id/3846/rec/102

Click on the double-headed arrow and then scroll to enlarge the image.

Description:

A view of a Swift and Company wood building in the Platte Valley rail yard in Denver, Colorado. An ad poster for Swift and Company is on the front of the building; railroad cars are behind the building and the 16th Street viaduct is in the distance. A sign above the doorway reads "Swift & Company".

My guess this is a minor repair facility for company reefers and livestock cars. Does anyone have an alternative explanation?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Weathering A 1920s Tank Car

Todd Sullivan
 

Thank you for the additional information, Tony.  Gifts of information like this are what makes this collection of modelers the best, in my  opinion.

Todd Sullivan


Re: Weathering A 1920s Tank Car

Tony Thompson
 

Todd Sullivan wrote:

Except that, if the tank car is insulated, the tank bands would be installed to run under the insulation so they could securely clamp the tank to the frame.  Tank car insulation was asbestos sheet covered by a thin metal jacket . . .

Not ordinarily, unless hot cargoes were expected. Magnesite was more common, and fiberglass batts were used too. Lots of photos of both at AC&F.
    But Todd's point is that hold-down bands were NOT outside jackets, important to know.

Tony Thompson




Re: Hindsight 20/20 5.0

rwilson1056
 

Found the National Stocktard for Jacksonville FL in one of the Sanborns for the city, see attached


Re: Photo: Swift & Company Shed

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Bob,
 
Great image you found there!
 
I especially like the two wildly disparate types of end-of-track bumpers that are right next to one another.
 
Claus Schlund
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2020 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Swift & Company Shed

For some reason the little frame building with the brick chimney reminds me of a paper barbershop sold by Carsten's decades ago in a book of paper buildings you could cut out and assemble. That really dates me. 

Pat Wade
Santna Barbara, CA

On Sat, Dec 26, 2020 at 12:21 PM Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Photo: Swift & Company Shed

A photo from the Denver Public Library:

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll21/id/3846/rec/102

Click on the double-headed arrow and then scroll to enlarge the image.

Description:

A view of a Swift and Company wood building in the Platte Valley rail yard in Denver, Colorado. An ad poster for Swift and Company is on the front of the building; railroad cars are behind the building and the 16th Street viaduct is in the distance. A sign above the doorway reads "Swift & Company".

My guess this is a minor repair facility for company reefers and livestock cars. Does anyone have an alternative explanation?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: Swift & Company Shed

Dave Parker
 

That's a cool photo, but the library's guess as to the date (1935) is way off.  The lettering scheme on the second car is pre-WWI, and the cars are not SAA-compliant.  I'd say 1910-15, possibly earlier.  Too bad we can't read any car numbers.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Re: Photo: Swift & Company Shed

Patrick Wade
 

For some reason the little frame building with the brick chimney reminds me of a paper barbershop sold by Carsten's decades ago in a book of paper buildings you could cut out and assemble. That really dates me. 

Pat Wade
Santna Barbara, CA

On Sat, Dec 26, 2020 at 12:21 PM Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Photo: Swift & Company Shed

A photo from the Denver Public Library:

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll21/id/3846/rec/102

Click on the double-headed arrow and then scroll to enlarge the image.

Description:

A view of a Swift and Company wood building in the Platte Valley rail yard in Denver, Colorado. An ad poster for Swift and Company is on the front of the building; railroad cars are behind the building and the 16th Street viaduct is in the distance. A sign above the doorway reads "Swift & Company".

My guess this is a minor repair facility for company reefers and livestock cars. Does anyone have an alternative explanation?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Photos: Staley Tank Cars

Bob Chaparro
 

I should have noted this was a model.
Sorry.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Photo: Swift & Company Shed

Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Swift & Company Shed

A photo from the Denver Public Library:

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll21/id/3846/rec/102

Click on the double-headed arrow and then scroll to enlarge the image.

Description:

A view of a Swift and Company wood building in the Platte Valley rail yard in Denver, Colorado. An ad poster for Swift and Company is on the front of the building; railroad cars are behind the building and the 16th Street viaduct is in the distance. A sign above the doorway reads "Swift & Company".

My guess this is a minor repair facility for company reefers and livestock cars. Does anyone have an alternative explanation?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

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