Date   

Re: Decals for 1930's boxcars?

Brian Carlson
 

Those are the Reading XMV class. They are not typical 1937 AAR cars. They were built by the Reading shops. If you were looking for typical 1937 cars, tabbed sills, Murphy roof etc. they aren’t them. They are available from F&C in HO. 

As built ref NKP 15000 series would have been painted like this when built.  I don’t have a great pic. 

The swing tail R started with the 1941 builds, I think. Ray Breyer will correct me if I’m wrong. The swing trail R was until the end of the war when the straight leg R was used.  


Brian J. Carlson 

On Dec 27, 2020, at 1:51 PM, irv_thomae <irvthomae@...> wrote:

  My principal source of information is the compilation of "1937 AAR Boxcars (1936-1947)" by Ed Hawkins, which lists 300 RDG cars, numbered 103000-103299, built in Nov 1937.  They had Duryea underframes, 3-panel Creco doors, Alan Wood Super Diamond running boards, and an unusual side-sheet rivet pattern.   That would make for a quite unusual model, but I probably won't be ambitious enough to tackle it.

  I appreciate your suggesting K4 Decals for NKP, and I have been corresponding with Michael Hood.   I would like to model a car from the #15500-15999 series, built in Sept 1937, as it would have looked in the first half of 1941.

   The decal sheet that K4 currently offers (in several scales) uses a version of the NKP herald in which the 'K' in "Nickel Plate Road" has a curved "tail" but the 'R' does not.   Do you or anyone else happen to know when the decorated 'R' came into use? Pg 146 of Ted Culotta's "Freight Car Reference Book" shows that herald on NKP #20177, which was built in January 1940.  However, in that photo taken on July 10, 1943, the car looks as if it has been freshly repainted.
Thanks!!
Irv
   


Re: Hindsight 20/20 5.0

rwilson1056
 

Notice there's Swift, Cudahy, & Wilson facilities all in that 1-2 block area. 


Re: Decals for 1930's boxcars?

irv_thomae
 

  My principal source of information is the compilation of "1937 AAR Boxcars (1936-1947)" by Ed Hawkins, which lists 300 RDG cars, numbered 103000-103299, built in Nov 1937.  They had Duryea underframes, 3-panel Creco doors, Alan Wood Super Diamond running boards, and an unusual side-sheet rivet pattern.   That would make for a quite unusual model, but I probably won't be ambitious enough to tackle it.

  I appreciate your suggesting K4 Decals for NKP, and I have been corresponding with Michael Hood.   I would like to model a car from the #15500-15999 series, built in Sept 1937, as it would have looked in the first half of 1941.

   The decal sheet that K4 currently offers (in several scales) uses a version of the NKP herald in which the 'K' in "Nickel Plate Road" has a curved "tail" but the 'R' does not.   Do you or anyone else happen to know when the decorated 'R' came into use? Pg 146 of Ted Culotta's "Freight Car Reference Book" shows that herald on NKP #20177, which was built in January 1940.  However, in that photo taken on July 10, 1943, the car looks as if it has been freshly repainted.
Thanks!!
Irv
   


Re: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Rapido GLa Hopper--was Anthracite carloads on Great Northern

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

David and all;

In all the research, PRR analyses, and photo evidence, it is evident that PRR hoppers went off-line all the time, and if they went into anthracite territory loaded, they generally got reloaded with anthracite for the way back. PRR was a source of tremendous help to under-capitalized roads that did not have sufficient cars of their own.

I have seen hundreds of cars of anthracite railroads in bituminous territory, and vice versa.

PA bituminous was also widely shipped everywhere else, also, and one huge user was the roads that did not have steam-engine-quality bituminous on-line.

I don't want to cause another of those endless "Hoppers DID/DID NOT" travel dialogs, but the idea that hoppers did not travel is patently false.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of David via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 12:58 PM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Rapido GLa Hopper--Anthracite carloads on Great Northern

It's about time to point out that PRR didn't really do much in the Pennsylvania anthracite regions; the vast majority of PRR coal was regular old bituminous.

David Thompson


Re: Photo: Swift & Company Shed

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Steve,
 
I noticed that too!
 
Claus Schlund
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Swift & Company Shed

The somewhat crooked grabs on the end of the car make me feel a little better about my modeling.
Steve Wolcott


Re: Photo: Swift & Company Shed

Steve Wolcott
 

The somewhat crooked grabs on the end of the car make me feel a little better about my modeling.
Steve Wolcott


Rapido GLa Hopper--Anthracite carloads on Great Northern

David
 

It's about time to point out that PRR didn't really do much in the Pennsylvania anthracite regions; the vast majority of PRR coal was regular old bituminous.

David Thompson


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Rapido GLa Hopper--Anthracite carloads on Great Northern

Gavin
 

And since PRR got to Chicago, it is possible some could me shipped further west on GN, MILW or SOO/CP to points west


On Sun, Dec 27, 2020, 9:24 AM Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

It’s not an “if”, Chuck, you are correct; anthracite was indeed shipped all over as a water treatment consumable.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Charles Peck
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2020 10:15 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Rapido GLa Hopper--Anthracite carloads on Great Northern

 

If I recall correctly (a big if), wasn't anthracite used as carbon filtration in water plants?

If so, fuel was not the only need for northeast hoppers far afield. 

Chuck Peck

 

On Sat, Dec 26, 2020 at 10:06 AM mrvant@... <mrvant@...> wrote:

A lot of western coal was shipped in boxcars on CP. Prairie towns had coal merchants’ bins with the trackside loading bins even with a boxcar floor and the coal was shovelled into them. OCS coal for CP in NB for those coal loader derrick contraptions came by boxcar from local mines too.


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Rapido GLa Hopper--Anthracite carloads on Great Northern

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

It’s not an “if”, Chuck, you are correct; anthracite was indeed shipped all over as a water treatment consumable.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Charles Peck
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2020 10:15 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Rapido GLa Hopper--Anthracite carloads on Great Northern

 

If I recall correctly (a big if), wasn't anthracite used as carbon filtration in water plants?

If so, fuel was not the only need for northeast hoppers far afield. 

Chuck Peck

 

On Sat, Dec 26, 2020 at 10:06 AM mrvant@... <mrvant@...> wrote:

A lot of western coal was shipped in boxcars on CP. Prairie towns had coal merchants’ bins with the trackside loading bins even with a boxcar floor and the coal was shovelled into them. OCS coal for CP in NB for those coal loader derrick contraptions came by boxcar from local mines too.


Re: Sanborn maps (was Hindsight 20/20 5.0)

akerboomk
 

B&M links now fixed.  At:

            https://www.bmrrhs.org/sanborn_bm_sheets_mass

 

(note the data is just listing the sheet numbers with B&M trackage, not the scans of the Sanborn maps…)

 

 


--
Ken Akerboom


Re: Sanborn maps (was Hindsight 20/20 5.0)

akerboomk
 

It is my understanding the B&W microfilmed Sanborn maps were produced from the LoC’s color originals.

 

So the color ones available on-line from the LoC scanning project *should* match the microfilm versions, just in color.

 

The “overlays” seem to mostly occur starting in the 1930s (from Bureau of Census Sanborn books that were given to the LoC?)

Although I am sure overlays were used earlier, the maps were “completely” redraw relatively frequently [depending on the city/town] before then, so the need was less.  (or maybe just the LoC collection only had the original books, and did not subscribe to, or paste in, the updates, whereas the Bureau of Census did?)

 

If you are interested in which sheets have B&M trackage, see:

            https://www.bmrrhs.org/s/BM-Sanborn-Maps.pdf

 

(although checking now, it looks like I need to re-do all the links…)

 

 


--
Ken Akerboom


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Erie Gondola with Slope Sheets

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Nice job, Vince!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Vincent Lee via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2020 5:12 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Erie Gondola with Slope Sheets

 

I just finished up a pair of these, using mainly the Mantua plastic gondola.

 

 

Vince Lee

 

 

Modeling the Erie 28th Street Terminal in New York City

(https://www.facebook.com/Erie28thSt)  and at the West Island Model RR Club (Facebook:@westislandmodelrailroaders)


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Erie Gondola with Slope Sheets

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Todd;

 

Glad you asked!

 

This was an event dreaded by most, when things got out of control under the “floor” of the blast furnace, and it required draining of the molten iron mass into something called The Salamander, due to its shape.  Think pigs, but much, much bigger.  This was a dangerous process.

 

The demands of WW2 caused the loss of many specialized people from the industry, and replacement with people that often didn’t know what they were looking at.

 

There were signs a blast furnace was going out of control.  If it did, they literally had to drill through the walls containing the base beneath the floor, then dig slowly through until they could tap the salamander into the sand beds pictured.

 

This process ate up HUNDREDS of freight cars for wall debris, fill removal, cinder removal, burden removal, and cooled salamander material (mostly iron broken up) recycling.  Those cars are proof of process.

 

There are extremely few photos that show this event.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Todd Sullivan via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2020 5:33 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Erie Gondola with Slope Sheets

 

OK, Elden, I'll bite.  What's the salamander?

Todd Sullivan


Re: Hindsight 20/20 5.0

Brian Rochon
 

Garth et al,

 

A couple of comments regarding LOC Sanford Maps.

 

  1. The index page for each Volume has a change history shown.  If you look at that page you can see the original (copyright) date as well as the history of the dates that changes were made.
  2. All of the digitized LOC maps are in color and are available for free download in several file formats and resolutions from the LOC.

 

v/r,

Brian Rochon

Silver Spring, MD

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 8:03 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Hindsight 20/20 5.0

 

Bill and friends,

 

Some cautions with the Sanborn maps are in order.

 

Some of the colorful paper originals had updates pasted in over the years, so a book issued with a particular date might actually contain later information. Of course, this is hard to see on a digitized version, and IIRC, they paste-ins were not dated.


Re: Carbon black hopper reweigh

John Barry
 

Bruce,

The Oct 43 ORER includes Sayre, OK with the July, 1945 ORER listing of home points for United Carbon Company:  Borger, Texas; Indiana Harbor, Indiana; Kosmos, Texas; Milton, Pennsylvania; Sanford, Texas; Sheerin, Texas; Stinnett, Texas; Sunray, Texas; United, Texas. The Oct 44 listing is identical with the July 45 list.  

Given that most of the homepoints are at oil producing locations in Texas and the Santa Fe location (on the Panhandle & Santa Fe) at Borger had no track scale, I suspect the stations on the Rock didn't either.  I posit that General American handled the heavy maintenance for United Carbon at their Milton, PA plant.  

What we don't know from the ORERs is the destination points for the LO's.  Given that the origins didn't likely have the ability to weigh empties, United Carbon probably either routed cars due through Milton or requested weighing after unloading at the customer.  That means a scale near your favorite rubber manufacturer or GATC at Milton as your most likely reweigh stencils.

The roads serving the homepoints are in the attachment extracted from the April 1944 list of open and pre-pay stations.

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA


707-490-9696 






On Sunday, December 27, 2020, 01:54:17 AM EST, Guy Wilber via groups.io <guycwilber@...> wrote:




 Bruce Smith wrote:

“Since I model 1944, that car will need to be reweighed. I realize that a car could be reweighed by any road when due, but typically, the home shops tried to get that done. Any idea of where (and the scale code) these UCBX hoppers were reweighed?”

The July, 1945 ORER lists the following home points for United Carbon Company:  Borger, Texas; Indiana Harbor, Indiana; Kosmos, Texas; Milton, Pennsylvania; Sanford, Texas; Sheerin, Texas; Stinnett, Texas; Sunray, Texas; United, Texas.

I also noticed a few photos where there does not appear to be a reweigh. Were these cars ever not subject to the reweigh requirements?”

Prior to 1947 Type LO cars were not specifically called out within the reweigh rules; Interchange Rule 30 and Car Service Rule 11.  The reweigh interval was 30 months once the classification was added to the existing list.  This may have been a factor regarding the lack of reweigh stenciling within the photos, though I would be skeptical.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada 


Re: Hindsight 20/20 5.0

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Bill and friends,

Some cautions with the Sanborn maps are in order.

Some of the colorful paper originals had updates pasted in over the years, so a book issued with a particular date might actually contain later information. Of course, this is hard to see on a digitized version, and IIRC, they paste-ins were not dated.

Sanborn maps usually show railway tracks in detail. Not so with streetcar lines or interurbans, even when the electrified railway was a major freight carrier such as the Sacramento Northern. This exclusion began about the time of WWI. There are some early maps that show Oakland, Antioch & Eastern track (an SN predecessor) around 1912, but the same tracks are conspicuously absent from later maps. Electric railway right-of-way was usually shown as a blank space, sometimes bounded by drawn property lines, and indicated as "Electric Railway Right-of-Way" or some such wording. Many railroad buildings that fall into those zones are not shown either.

Much (but not all) the Sanborn maps were microfilmed by the Center for Research Libraries many years ago. I don't know if the Library of Congress is able to issue the maps in a more complete version (contrary to popular belief, the Library of Congress does NOT own a copy of every item in the world, or even in the U.S.). Nor do I know if they are re-using the CRL collection. It would be a shame if they did, as the CRL maps are all black-and-white, while the Sanborn originals are color coded for the materials used in each building. If you are using online versions of these maps through state or local libraries and they are monochrome, they are probably digitizations of the CRL collection.

There were other producers of similar fire insurance maps, but they were minor players. The Sanborn collection was the largest and most thorough, as well as in production for the longest time.

I once got into big  trouble over the Sanborn maps with the interlibrary loan people at the UVA Library where I worked. I made an ILL request for certain reels naming the Virginia towns in which I was interested. I expected four or five reels. CRL sent the entire Virginia collection, some 60 reels. As I viewed those reels, I understood why they did this. The information I wanted on the rural industrial areas I was researching was included with different towns during subsequent map re-issues. In addition, some towns extended across two or more reels. There was no index available. CRL had no way to tailor my request -- they just shipped the whole big shmegegge. UVA's ILL people were not happy to pay the postage each way on such a large and heavy carton. The lending clerk threw some very sharp words at me, and made a formal complaint to the ILL Director. The director nearly suspended my borrowing privileges, but eventually saw my side.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆


On Sat, Dec 26, 2020 at 8:01 PM William Hirt <whirt@...> wrote:

The Jacksonville Sanborn maps updated through 1949 are available on the Library of Congress web site:

Here is the link to Volume 1a:

<https://www.loc.gov/item/sanborn01286_008/>

Here is the link to Volume 4:

<https://www.loc.gov/item/sanborn01286_010/>

The other updated Volumes thorough 1949 are not available on online. Earlier years (1884 to 1913) are also available.

The Library of Congress is gradually scanning their entire collection to place online. They say in the collection information they do not post anything beyond a copyright date of 1922, but there are exceptions I have found like the above.

Bill Hirt

On 12/26/2020 3:39 PM, rwilson1056 via groups.io wrote:
Found the National Stocktard for Jacksonville FL in one of the Sanborns for the city, see attached


Re: Carbon black hopper reweigh

Guy Wilber
 



Bruce Smith wrote:

“Since I model 1944, that car will need to be reweighed. I realize that a car could be reweighed by any road when due, but typically, the home shops tried to get that done. Any idea of where (and the scale code) these UCBX hoppers were reweighed?”

The July, 1945 ORER lists the following home points for United Carbon Company:  Borger, Texas; Indiana Harbor, Indiana; Kosmos, Texas; Milton, Pennsylvania; Sanford, Texas; Sheerin, Texas; Stinnett, Texas; Sunray, Texas; United, Texas.

I also noticed a few photos where there does not appear to be a reweigh. Were these cars ever not subject to the reweigh requirements?”

Prior to 1947 Type LO cars were not specifically called out within the reweigh rules; Interchange Rule 30 and Car Service Rule 11.  The reweigh interval was 30 months once the classification was added to the existing list.  This may have been a factor regarding the lack of reweigh stenciling within the photos, though I would be skeptical.

Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada 


Carbon black hopper reweigh

Bruce Smith
 

Folks,

I'm finally finishing my RailShops Carbon Black covered hopper. I'm planning on lettering it for United Carbon Company (UCBX) for a pre-WWII built car using Mount Vernon Shops decals. Those decals and the photos in both the Mainline Modeler and RMJ articles on these cars show NEW stencils almost exclusively. Since I model 1944, that car will need to be reweighed. I realize that a car could be reweighed by any road when due, but typically, the home shops tried to get that done. Any idea of where (and the scale code) these UCBX hoppers were reweighed?

I also noticed a few photos where there does not appear to be a reweigh. Were these cars ever not subject to the reweigh requirements?

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: Hindsight 20/20 5.0

William Hirt
 

The Jacksonville Sanborn maps updated through 1949 are available on the Library of Congress web site:

Here is the link to Volume 1a:

<https://www.loc.gov/item/sanborn01286_008/>

Here is the link to Volume 4:

<https://www.loc.gov/item/sanborn01286_010/>

The other updated Volumes thorough 1949 are not available on online. Earlier years (1884 to 1913) are also available.

The Library of Congress is gradually scanning their entire collection to place online. They say in the collection information they do not post anything beyond a copyright date of 1922, but there are exceptions I have found like the above.

Bill Hirt

On 12/26/2020 3:39 PM, rwilson1056 via groups.io wrote:
Found the National Stocktard for Jacksonville FL in one of the Sanborns for the city, see attached
_._,_._,_


Re: Photo: Swift & Company Shed

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Forgot to mention, if you zoom in on the window, you can see a little bit of the interior of the shack, might be the edge of a roller shutter desk that is hopelessly crowded up with 'stuff' of some sort.
 
Also, note that we are looking a a four-car cut of reefers, and the three furthest from the camera have very obvious chalk marks, but the one car closest to the camera does NOT have any chalk marks. Further evidence that the car closest to us may not have moved in a very long time...
 
Claus Schlund
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2020 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Swift & Company Shed

Hi List Members,
 
For everyone's convenience, I will put the web link back into the conversation...
 
 
The date is given at the web site as: [1935?]
 
I will say that if you zoom in on the image, the sign immediately above the door reads - you guessed it - 1935! I suggest it might be a street address number, but maybe the library researchers mistook it as being the year?
 
I will also add that the shed looks to be very recent construction, the wood is in top-notch shape, not dirty nor dog-eared nor weathered to any detectable extent.
 
Someone mentioned there may be two tracks under the shed, but I do not think that to be the case. I suspect there is an enclosed annex to the back end of the shack that extends under the shed - perhaps the shed covers this annex and/or a loading platform beyond the annex to provide shelter from the elements?
 
Also notice that the poster on the end of the car is not just pasted on, it is nicely framed with wood that has 45 degree beveled corners, and the poster appears to have been put up there is some amount of care to make for a good-looking presentation. Contrast this with the other pasted-up bills that are in the image. This makes me think the car closest to the camera is there to stay.
 
I like how the siding used to make up the sides of the shed appear to be random width boards!
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2020 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Swift & Company Shed

This location is about a block from the Denver Union Station. A map that came with the book "Denver's Railroads" shows the L.J. Brown hide house, but where the Swift shack and shed are located in the photo is called out as "Country Club Dist[ribution] Co. Interestingly, the track (or tracks - are there two under the shed? I think so.) are not shown on that map, which shows every track that existed, and I mean every track. The map is said to be from "about 1936." 

Another map from the same book, from "a time when the narrow gauge South Park and Clear Creek Lines were still operating," again show no tracks but does show a building outline that is consistent with the photo. The building is labeled "KC Bag Co." I believe the South Park line was abandoned in 1937.

I suspect the photo is from well before 1935, and even the library questions that date. The freight cars in the background seem to support this.

I tend to agree that the reefer closest to the camera is permanently parked there. The condition of the paint compared to the others is one give-away in my opinion. Note also the plethora of chalk marks on the others, but none on the first car.

Swift had a large packing plant a few miles away from this location so I suspect suspect something was shipped from the packing plant to this location for use or transshipment in the immediate area. This is very close to downtown Denver.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Parks via groups.io <BPARKS_43@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Dec 26, 2020 3:04 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Swift & Company Shed

This may end up being one of those photos that we never figure out.

Dave Parker questions the date of the photo, and the age of the cars would suggest it was more around WWI.  Additionally, from what I could determine, the girl on the poster on the end car was used on multiple posters form around 1900 through WWI (may have been used later, but I couldn't find any dated later).

The fact that the poster is on the car, and not the building, is very interesting.  As far as I know, that would make the car ineligible for interchange, which lends weight to Ken Akerboom's comment about the cars possibly being used for "permanent" storage.  If that was the case, then 1935 would be probable for the date of the photo.

I am leaning towards agreeing with Douglass Harding that this structure has to do with byproducts.  His observations about that are logical.

Finally, the brick chimney looks like it was built prior to the covering over the track.  My guess is it was for heating in the building.  It almost looks like it is used to help hold up the shed, but you can see a partial gap at its top, which says to me it is not holding any of the load.  Makes me wonder if the chimney was still in use at this time.  If it was, then some (or all) of the smoke would end up under the shed.

Probably the best way to resolve all of this is if anyone can determine anything based on the cars in the background.  Will be interesting to follow other's comments on this one.
--
Bill Parks
Cumming, GA
Modelling the Seaboard Airline in Central Florida

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