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Re: 50' Mather stock cars..OT perchance?
Bill,
Interesting. Hogs to Tobin's in Rochester... I thought great hots. A guy down the street worked at Tobin's. He said he would never ever eat a hotdog again... Hmm. Gordon Spalty |
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Re: Thinking about Cocoa Beach 2021 . . .
Schuyler Larrabee
Oh, unfortunately, there are several others, not the least of whom is Greg Martin.
I just found I had a pretty good photo of Denny, and it yanked my strings.
Schuyler
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of BRIAN PAUL EHNI
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 9:09 PM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Thinking about Cocoa Beach 2021 . . .
And Bill Welch. Thanks! Brian Ehni (Sent from my iPhone)
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Re: Thinking about Cocoa Beach 2021 . . .
And Bill Welch.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Thanks! Brian Ehni (Sent from my iPhone) On Jan 4, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:
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Re: Photo: Speas Company Vinegar Tank Car
Scott,
I would say you are correct assuming the pipes were below ground. Vinegar has a high proportion of water that will freeze. David |
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Re: 50' Mather stock cars
Richard Townsend
Burlington Bulletin No. 25 says, in its discussion of the CB&Q's leasing of 40 and 50-foot Mather stock cars in 1963, at page 86, "The 50-foot cars had been created in the Mather shops about 1952 by splicing together pairs of 40-foot cars . . .." It further mentions that the NKP and NYC operated identical leased cars. Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR
-----Original Message-----
From: Mat Thompson <ocrr@...> To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Sent: Mon, Jan 4, 2021 5:22 pm Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 50' Mather stock cars There is a question of where did the 1952 date come from for conversion of Mather cars to 50 feet.
The January 1998 Model Railroader article by Jim Teese says conversions began in 1952. He also said his source information came from the Burlington Route Historical Society Bulletin no. 25 (April 1992) which is still listed on their website but I have not seen it.
Jeff Wilson, in his Kalmbach book Livestock & Meatpacking, says Mather “In the late 50s, rebuilt some of it 40-foot cars into 50-footers” (page 19). The same Burlington Route Bulletin is listed in the book’s Bibliography but I don’t know if that is the source of the late 50s comment.
Mat Thompson
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Re: 50' Mather stock cars
Mat Thompson
There is a question of where did the 1952 date come from for conversion of Mather cars to 50 feet.
The January 1998 Model Railroader article by Jim Teese says conversions began in 1952. He also said his source information came from the Burlington Route Historical Society Bulletin no. 25 (April 1992) which is still listed on their website but I have not seen it.
Jeff Wilson, in his Kalmbach book Livestock & Meatpacking, says Mather “In the late 50s, rebuilt some of it 40-foot cars into 50-footers” (page 19). The same Burlington Route Bulletin is listed in the book’s Bibliography but I don’t know if that is the source of the late 50s comment.
Mat Thompson
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Re: Photo: Installing A New Deck On A Flat Car (Undated)
Schuyler Larrabee
Agreed, Brent. Sometimes with these photos it’s the unintended subject matter off to the side (or in this case, straight ahead) that’s very much worth SEEing. But what struck me about this image is that the crew must have known the precise dimension for the width of each plank. I mean, there’s an implicit optimism in installing the boards not in sequence from end to end, but somehow knowing that they’re not going to have to do a lot of lengthwise ripping of those planks to fit between the previously installed planks.
Schuyler
From: Brent Greer Interesting to see some of the end details of the boxcar next in line. Obviously this is a repair track, so it isn't all that shocking to see that the placard boards on the end are completely gone and just the mounts remaining. But it is interesting to see where the road name and number are stenciled. I wouldn't have gotten that detail right if I were modeling that boxcar without this photo.
Brent Dr. J. Brent Greer From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...>
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 4:30 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Installing A New Deck On A Flat Car (Undated)
Photo: Installing A New Deck On A Flat Car (Undated) A photo from the Norfolk Southern Corporation: Click on the photo to enlarge it. Looks like the planks with cutouts for the stake pockets are being installed first. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA |
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Re: 50' Mather stock cars
Rupert Gamlen
To provide some clarification to the discussion (looking into the future) - According to ORER’s, the first group of CB&Q leased Mather cars, 20000-20139 (40’ 3” inside length) was received between February 1960 and August 1960 The second group 50200-50239 (50’ inside length) was received between May 1965 and April 1966.
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Steve SANDIFER
Sent: Tuesday, 5 January 2021 1:55 pm To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 50' Mather stock cars
1952 is he date given in the Burlington Bulletin. However, I searched the 1959 ORER that I have and could not find them in NYC, CB&Q, NKP, or North American listings. The few photos I have found were all taken in the 1966-68 date range.
J. Stephen Sandifer
From:
main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Ray Breyer via groups.io
I haven't been able to find any evidence of the 50-foot cars being converted in 1952. 1962 is more likely a correct date, but by then Mather didn't exist.
Where did the 1952 date come from? I'm working on a full timeline of Mather from 1880-1956, and I'd love to see that data.
Ray Breyer
On Sunday, January 3, 2021, 08:06:44 PM CST, Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:
I assume many of this group are on the OpSig group that discussed Live Stock Operations today. The question concerned the 50’ Mather stock cars.
Mather cars were generally leased cars. Beginning in 1952 Mather spliced together pairs of 40’ cars, retaining the doors of both cars, producing a 50’ stock car. Cars in that configuration were operated by the NKP (Photo 42023 1966) NYC (as NISX painted Jade Green in 1966). The NISX cars were frequently seen on the Q. Photo NISX 3169 Freight Cars - Lake States Railway Historical Association (lakestatesarchive.org) and Freight Cars - Lake States Railway Historical Association (lakestatesarchive.org) CB&Q, 40 cars (50200-50239) for use in sheep and hog service which lasted until at least 1968. Maybe Doug or someone else can add more details to this discussion.
For more info: Burlington Bulletin, No. 25 Model Railroader, January, 1998
J. Stephen Sandifer
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Re: NP 5418
william darnaby
I still weather a lot with an airbrush, spraying dilute Floquil earth or foundation and rail tie brown mostly on the underbody, trucks (attached less wheels) and lower areas of the body while the car is still glossy after decaling. Then comes the Scalecoat flat finish all over the car (I use Scalecoat exclusively for cars I decal). After a day of drying I do the oil paint wash. Using a watercolor brush I mix burnt umber and black in a small glass cup of Turpenol, loading the brush by sticking it into the oil tubes and then swirling it around in the cup. The mixture gets applies to the roof first and then the sides and ends, letting the wash run down. The wash tends to collect around details like rivets, seams, ribs, etc. and collects at the bottom. If too much collects at the bottom of the side it can be wicked up with the brush. Because the mixing process is haphazard the amount of application varies from car to car.
After a day of drying the reweigh and repack data and background paint is applied with decals over the oil wash. Decal chalk mark decals are also applied at this time. Then it is a final application of Scalecoat flat to kill the shine of these decals. Finally, accents with Pan Pastels are applied.
Your mileage may vary, of course.
Bill Darnaby
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Smith
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 12:36 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NP 5418
Tim,
Turpentine, or the odorless alternative, Turpenol, are effective on all artist's oil paints, regardless of brand. It is not an appropriate solvent for other types of paint.
Regards, Bruce Smith Auburn, AL
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
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Re: 50' Mather stock cars
Steve SANDIFER
1952 is he date given in the Burlington Bulletin. However, I searched the 1959 ORER that I have and could not find them in NYC, CB&Q, NKP, or North American listings. The few photos I have found were all taken in the 1966-68 date range.
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Breyer via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 6:45 PM To: Steam Freight Car <realstmfc@groups.io>; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 50' Mather stock cars
I haven't been able to find any evidence of the 50-foot cars being converted in 1952. 1962 is more likely a correct date, but by then Mather didn't exist.
Where did the 1952 date come from? I'm working on a full timeline of Mather from 1880-1956, and I'd love to see that data.
Ray Breyer
On Sunday, January 3, 2021, 08:06:44 PM CST, Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:
I assume many of this group are on the OpSig group that discussed Live Stock Operations today. The question concerned the 50’ Mather stock cars.
Mather cars were generally leased cars. Beginning in 1952 Mather spliced together pairs of 40’ cars, retaining the doors of both cars, producing a 50’ stock car. Cars in that configuration were operated by the NKP (Photo 42023 1966) NYC (as NISX painted Jade Green in 1966). The NISX cars were frequently seen on the Q. Photo NISX 3169 Freight Cars - Lake States Railway Historical Association (lakestatesarchive.org) and Freight Cars - Lake States Railway Historical Association (lakestatesarchive.org) CB&Q, 40 cars (50200-50239) for use in sheep and hog service which lasted until at least 1968. Maybe Doug or someone else can add more details to this discussion.
For more info: Burlington Bulletin, No. 25 Model Railroader, January, 1998
J. Stephen Sandifer
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Re: Thinking about Cocoa Beach 2021 . . .
Losing friends may be the worst part of growing old. Chuck Peck On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 7:30 PM O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
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Re: 50' Mather stock cars
Ray Breyer
I haven't been able to find any evidence of the 50-foot cars being converted in 1952. 1962 is more likely a correct date, but by then Mather didn't exist. Where did the 1952 date come from? I'm working on a full timeline of Mather from 1880-1956, and I'd love to see that data. Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
On Sunday, January 3, 2021, 08:06:44 PM CST, Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:
I assume many of this group are on the OpSig group that discussed Live Stock Operations today. The question concerned the 50’ Mather stock cars.
Mather cars were generally leased cars. Beginning in 1952 Mather spliced together pairs of 40’ cars, retaining the doors of both cars, producing a 50’ stock car. Cars in that configuration were operated by the NKP (Photo 42023 1966) NYC (as NISX painted Jade Green in 1966). The NISX cars were frequently seen on the Q. Photo NISX 3169 Freight Cars - Lake States Railway Historical Association (lakestatesarchive.org) and Freight Cars - Lake States Railway Historical Association (lakestatesarchive.org) CB&Q, 40 cars (50200-50239) for use in sheep and hog service which lasted until at least 1968. Maybe Doug or someone else can add more details to this discussion.
For more info: Burlington Bulletin, No. 25 Model Railroader, January, 1998
J. Stephen Sandifer
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Re: Atlas Swift 4-hinge reefer
Ray Breyer
Nope; it's company owned. In 1935 Cudahy was only leasing stock cars from Mather. Both companies (and several others) had their yards in East Chicago. Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
On Monday, January 4, 2021, 10:45:31 AM CST, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:
Doug,
Is Cudahy 5557 a Mather car? It’s marked for return to E. Chicago where Mather had their plant. The car ends are a different design from later Mather cars.
Eric Hansmann Murfreesboro, TN
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Douglas Harding
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 8:24 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Atlas Swift 4-hinge reefer
Phil, they are what we commonly call 36’ wood reefers. Attached is the photo of the Cudahy reefer #5557 that closely matches the Atlas model. And at the photo of Swift 9863. 5557 was built in 1928 and Atlas says they used a car built in 1925, so there may have been differences. An ORER would list the dimensions you are asking about. I’m with family right now and don’t have access to my library right now. But general dimensions would be close.
Let me reiterate that Swift had a wide variety in their reefer fleet, which changed consistently as reefers went off lease and were replace with other reefers. Some new and some coming off other leases. Steve Hile and others are working on compiling information about the Swift reefer fleet, but the task has been daunting due to a lack of concrete information. Most of what is known is from photos.
If you want an accurate Swift reefer model, the Sunshine models are the best I know about. Everything else will be a compromise. For my modeling purposes I have a fleet of the Atlas cars painted and lettered for the Decker meat packing plant on my layout, along with a fleet of the MDC 36’ wood reefer and the newer Rapido meat reefer. Each is a different car with differences in dimensions and details. I’m willing to accept the compromise to have some slight variety in my overall meat reefer fleet.
Doug Harding
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Re: 50' Mather stock cars
Ray Breyer
A couple of points: Mather ceased to exist in mid-1956. And as far as I've been able to determine Mather never owned ANY 50-foot cars (they did own a few 48-foot horse cars in the early 1900s). That makes these stretched cars North American cars, not Mather, and were likely fabricated after 1960 (and photos of the NKP leased cars show them with Murphy roofs, not Mather patent). Ray Breyer Elgin, IL
On Monday, January 4, 2021, 08:33:52 AM CST, Douglas Harding <iowacentralrr@...> wrote:
Ah, now that I know the question I can answer. Mont makes an excellent point. At many rural locations there was only one loading chute at the local stockpens, so car length was not an issue. Each car had to be spotted. At the large “union” stockyards, the unloading platform often ran the entire length of the pens, as seen in the attached photo of the LA stockyards. These platforms were equipped with swing gates that could be extended. These gates accommodated a car that was not spotted exactly at the chute.
The CBQ had an extensive fleet of 36’ stockcars. In the early 60’s Mather rebuilt ex B&O stockcars that came off lease into 50’ cars that were leased to the CBQ (and painted Chinese Red). These cars were no doubt unloaded in Omaha, Chicago and other major stockyards with lots of consternation by crews because of the differences in car length.
Remember that there were also 86’ pig palaces and the UP had 60’ HOGX cars. These were all accommodated at loading and unloading facilities by the railroads.
Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mont Switzer
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 7:42 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 50' Mather stock cars
All,
When we talk about stock cars we usually think of long cuts of them loaded with enough cattle to be called a herd. In my part of the country there were a lot of hog farmers who took their fattened hogs to the local stock yard when ready This resulted in single car pickups with their cars spotted for this or live loading on a local train. This was almost always one car at a time and the hogs moved a relatively short distance. Fifty foot cars would not be a problem for this.
Mont From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] on behalf of Mat Thompson [ocrr@...] The question I remember was simple – didn’t the 50 foot cars create a problem with lining them up with the ramps on older stock pens? My answer was yes but did comment that I have some pens built with ramp spacing for 50 foot cars and that information was included on the note the company rep provide the conductor. I didn’t think about it at the time but many pens had platforms trackside. Drovers would put up temporary fences to herd animals onto the ramps.
The article to build these cars was in the January 1998 Model Railroader, written by Jim Teese. It includes one picture of an NKP prototype. He says Mather began joining cars in 1952. He also said he ordered Bulletin #25 from the Burlington Route Historical Society which contained some information on the cars. That Bulletin is still listed on their website.
Jeff Wilson has a picture of CB&Q 50237 on page 17 of his book Livestock & Meatpacking. Jeff notes that most conversions were double deck but a few were shingle deck.
Mat Thompson
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Re: Thinking about Cocoa Beach 2021 . . .
Unfortunately there are more that we will miss as well. Schuyler I'm afraid we are getting old and losing friends. fenton On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 7:17 PM Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:
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Re: Thinking about Cocoa Beach 2021 . . .
Miss him, Yes. As will we all. Chuck Peck On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 7:17 PM Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:
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Thinking about Cocoa Beach 2021 . . .
Schuyler Larrabee
I love going to Cocoa Beach, attending Prototype Rails, and seeing many of you. There’s such great fellowship and encouragement and inspiration to model more and model better. There’s a couple of men I’d love to be seeing at Cocoa this year . . . if we were seeing any of our cohort this year. The attached is a man I will particularly miss this and at all future Prototype Rails.
RIP, Denny.
Schuyler 
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Re: Photo: Installing A New Deck On A Flat Car (Undated)
Brent Greer
Interesting to see some of the end details of the boxcar next in line. Obviously this is a repair track, so it isn't all that shocking to see that the placard boards on the end are completely gone and just the mounts remaining. But it is interesting
to see where the road name and number are stenciled. I wouldn't have gotten that detail right if I were modeling that boxcar without this photo.
Brent
Dr. J. Brent Greer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...>
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 4:30 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Installing A New Deck On A Flat Car (Undated) Photo: Installing A New Deck On A Flat Car (Undated) A photo from the Norfolk Southern Corporation: Click on the photo to enlarge it. Looks like the planks with cutouts for the stake pockets are being installed first. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA |
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Photo: N&W Gondola 101078 (1950)
David
Nice B-end view of a later GKd rebuild (the earlier rebuilds had Murphy-style ends).
David Thompson |
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Re: Photo: N&W Boxcar 47302 (1949)
Tony Thompson
Bob Chaparro wrote:
And how about that "Buy War Bonds" Santa Fe box car!! Tony Thompson |
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