Date   

Re: 1932 ARA MP cars and atlas

jerryglow2
 

Be sure to reference Bill Welch's Modeling the AAR_ARA Standard Steel Boxcars.pdf  It has some MP/I-GN specific details


Re: 50' Mather stock cars

Douglas Harding
 

In the May 1997 issue of Railmodel Journal, p 12, Richard Hendrickson writes “In the late 50s, in order to supply some of its leasing customers larger cars, Mather built some 50-foot cars with double doors by simply splicing two 40-foot cars together. Some of these were single-deck cars, but most were double-deck.”

 

Burlington Bulletin #25 was published in April 1992. It has already been cited regarding the 1952 date. Though the CB&Q did not acquire any 50’ Mather design cars until 63 (after the cutoff date of this list). Author Hol Wagner does note the 40’ cars leased by the CBQ were off lease from the B&O, and came to the CBQ from Mather/North American wearing NAHX reporting marks before being repainted by the Q in Chinese Red. But he acknowledges he did not know the heritage of the 50’ cars, simply mentioning they were identical to NKP and NYC 50’ cars.

 

Much has been learned since the early 90s, but it appears we are still missing the definitive date as the actual creation of the 50’ Mather design stockcar.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve SANDIFER
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 6:55 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 50' Mather stock cars

 

1952 is he date given in the Burlington Bulletin. However, I searched the 1959 ORER that I have and could not find them in NYC, CB&Q, NKP, or North American listings. The few photos I have found were all taken in the 1966-68 date range.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Breyer via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 6:45 PM
To: Steam Freight Car <realstmfc@groups.io>; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 50' Mather stock cars

 

I haven't been able to find any evidence of the 50-foot cars being converted in 1952. 1962 is more likely a correct date, but by then Mather didn't exist.

 

Where did the 1952 date come from? I'm working on a full timeline of Mather from 1880-1956, and I'd love to see that data.

 

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

 

 

On Sunday, January 3, 2021, 08:06:44 PM CST, Steve SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:

 

 

I assume many of this group are on the OpSig group that discussed Live Stock Operations today. The question concerned the 50’ Mather stock cars.

 

Mather cars were generally leased cars. Beginning in 1952 Mather spliced together pairs of 40’ cars, retaining the doors of both cars, producing a 50’ stock car. Cars in that configuration were operated by the

NKP (Photo 42023 1966)

NYC (as NISX painted Jade Green in 1966). The NISX cars were frequently seen on the Q. Photo NISX 3169 Freight Cars - Lake States Railway Historical Association (lakestatesarchive.org) and Freight Cars - Lake States Railway Historical Association (lakestatesarchive.org)

CB&Q, 40 cars (50200-50239) for use in sheep and hog service which lasted until at least 1968.

Maybe Doug or someone else can add more details to this discussion.

 

For more info:

Burlington Bulletin, No. 25

Model Railroader, January, 1998

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 


Re: Atlas Swift 4-hinge reefer

Douglas Harding
 

Bob, the trucks contain a Protzellers Fairmont-Goodyear rubber block spring produced by the Fairmont Railway Motor Co. Which apparently did not sell.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 12:39 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Atlas Swift 4-hinge reefer

 

RE: Cudahy 5557
What type of trucks are under this car?
Thanks.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: Atlas Swift 4-hinge reefer

Douglas Harding
 

Eric, according to the caption in the Billboard Refrigerator Cars book p. 180, the car was built by General American at their E Chicago shop. But the caption also contains errors giving the wrong built date and the wrong car number, when the information is clearly visible on the car. Those errors could give one pause to question the rest of the caption. I can see no markings on the hi-rez scan I have that indicates the car was built by General American. The car was built in 1928 and repainted in 1935, which could have obliterated any builder markings.

 

I got the photo scan from the Fairmont Railway Motor collection.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Eric Hansmann
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 10:45 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Atlas Swift 4-hinge reefer

 

Doug,

 

Is Cudahy 5557 a Mather car? It’s marked for return to E. Chicago where Mather had their plant. The car ends are a different design from later Mather cars.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Douglas Harding
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 8:24 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Atlas Swift 4-hinge reefer

 

Phil, they are what we commonly call 36’ wood reefers. Attached is the photo of the Cudahy reefer #5557 that closely matches the Atlas model. And at the photo of Swift 9863. 5557 was built in 1928 and Atlas says they used a car built in 1925, so there may have been differences. An ORER would list the dimensions you are asking about. I’m with family right now and don’t have access to my library right now. But general dimensions would be close.

 

Let me reiterate that Swift had a wide variety in their reefer fleet, which changed consistently as reefers went off lease and were replace with other reefers. Some new and some coming off other leases. Steve Hile and others are working on compiling information about the Swift reefer fleet, but the task has been daunting due to a lack of concrete information. Most of what is known is from photos.

 

If you want an accurate Swift reefer model, the Sunshine models are the best I know about. Everything else will be a compromise. For my modeling purposes I have a fleet of the Atlas cars painted and lettered for the Decker meat packing plant on my layout, along with a fleet of the MDC 36’ wood reefer and the newer Rapido meat reefer. Each is a different car with differences in dimensions and details. I’m willing to accept the compromise to have some slight variety in my overall meat reefer fleet.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: H.C. Frick Hoppers

Keith Retterer
 

This is what the Frick hopper looked like brand new in 1905.


Re: Plow Bolts [was: Installing A New Deck On A Flat Car]

Mark Vinski
 

Sanding the round model bolt heads  lightly makes them look more like flat heads.

Mark Vinski


Re: H.C. Frick Hoppers

Larry Smith
 

Eric and all

My mistake on saying GLc as it should have been, GLa.  Thanks for the information and the article from RMJ

Larry Smith

On Tuesday, January 5, 2021, 2:27:13 PM CST, Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:


Bowser produced a GLa decorated for Frick. It’s about halfway down this page on the left.

https://www.bowser-trains.com/history/glahistory.html

 

it does not seem like they have produced the H21 with Frick lettering.

https://www.bowser-trains.com/history/h21history.html

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2021 1:15 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] H.C. Frick Hoppers

 

Hi Larry and List Members,

 

Larry asked: "Bowser produced an H.C. Frick GLC hopper car.  Did Frick indeed have hoppers and if so what happened to them"

 

Let's take this one step at a time...

 

(1) "Bowser produced an H.C. Frick GLC hopper car" - Larry, are you sure they produced a GLC? I thought they produced a GLa, in both HO and N scales... but I am an N scaler myself and so I don't thoroughly know their HO offerings.

 

(2) "Did Frick indeed have hoppers" - the answer is yes, they did. See attached image of a Frick hopper - the car in the image is a PRR class H21a clone. See also Feb 2002 RMJ paper page 23 for an image of PRR GLa design car HCF 4001, available at the link below...

 

 

(3) "what happened to them" - in the above RMJ article, Richard Burg writes: "...sold off the GLa fleet, probably to the PRR"

 

Hope this helps.

 

Claus Schlund

 


Photos: UP Company Service Boxcar 912040 (Former Express Boxcar 9149)

Bob Chaparro
 

Photos: UP Company Service Boxcar 912040 (Former Express Boxcar 9149)

A photo from the Denver Public Library:

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/83945/rec/290

Click on the double-headed arrow and then scroll to enlarge the image.

Description:

A team of workers use a gantry crane to transfer express box car #912040 from a team track to a flatbed truck for delivery to the Colorado Railroad Museum. Shows the 20th (Twentieth) Street truss bridge above the Union Station railroad yard in Denver, Colorado.

And Dick Harley's many photos of this same car as restored UP 9149:

https://harley-trains.smugmug.com/UPTrainPhotos/UP-Freight-Cars/UP-B-50-25-Express-Box-Car-2/i-TGCjThT

Dick identified the number history for this car:

#9149 as-built in 9-1939 by UPRR for Express service.

Renumbered to 24149 in regular freight service in 10-1959.

Renumbered to 912040 in MOW service in 9-1975.

Retired as “Worn Out” in 12-1980.

That transfer photo is dated 3-1986.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Photo: Texaco Tank Car TCX 723 (1936)

Dave Parker
 

6000-gal car, 173-gal dome, GA-built. 

There's a 1926 TROX 3-compartment car in Kaminski's tank car book with elbow valve, but no other examples from the 1920s spring to mind.  No other Class III TCX cars with the elbow in my folder either.  Curious.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Photo: Texaco Tank Car TCX 723 (1936)

David
 

1923 is fairly late for a safety valve elbow, but the dome is rather skinny.

David Thompson


Re: Plow Bolts [was: Installing A New Deck On A Flat Car]

Dennis Storzek
 

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 02:27 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
. . . the regular flat head one as used for flatcar decking, and possibly other freight car uses . . .
For HO modeling purposes, it reduces to a round dot, as David said.  But at least now I know the reason that this is true.

   Yet model flat cars continue to have raised bolt heads on decks .

I donno, Tony. I've never tooled a flatcar deck, but Accurail's wood running boards model them as smooth round flat spots, about .002" deep, so they'll catch any weathering wash. When these flat head bolts are tightened they are supposed to pull slightly below the surface so the don't catch things or present a tripping hazard, so the flat depressions model the way they actually look.

Dennis Storzek 
 


Re: Plow Bolts [was: Installing A New Deck On A Flat Car]

Tony Thompson
 

Ron Merrick wrote:

. . . the regular flat head one as used for flatcar decking, and possibly other freight car uses . . .
For HO modeling purposes, it reduces to a round dot, as David said.  But at least now I know the reason that this is true.

   Yet model flat cars continue to have raised bolt heads on decks . . .

Tony Thompson




Re: 50' Mather stock cars

Ray Breyer
 

Thanks for taking the time to dig up this information, Richard. It helps!

 This is the sort of useful, primary source information I was looking for, and does firm up at least a design date of 1952 for these cars. I still haven't found pre-1960 information for the cars actually being converted, so I'll note both data points in my material.

(and yes, I know to take 70 year old recollections with a small grain of salt, but I also know to NOT discount this sort of crucial personal information!)

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL




On Tuesday, January 5, 2021, 03:33:23 PM CST, Richard Townsend via groups.io <richtownsend@...> wrote:


I agree that primary sources would be best, but the ideal primary material - the Mather records - likely do not exist. A wonderful alternative would be an article from Railway Age or similar periodicals showcasing, or at least reporting, the 50-foot rebuilds. ORER records are less desirable, but they are somewhat helpful. 

Lacking the ability to search relevant periodicals, I asked Hol Wagner, the author of the Burlington Bulletin, whether he recalled the source he relied on. Here is what he told me: " The information came to me from longtime BRHS member Bob Landregan who was chief engineer of North American Car Co. when he had the plans drawn up for the construction of these cars, and they bear a 1952 date.  He wasn't sure that the work was actually undertaken that year, so I said "in about 1952" in the BB. "

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Breyer via groups.io <rtbsvrr69@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Jan 5, 2021 6:21 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 50' Mather stock cars

I'm looking for primary source material, not "hobby wisdom". It appears that "the Fifties" as a date came from the Burlington article. Where did that piece get its information from?

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL




On Monday, January 4, 2021, 07:23:11 PM CST, Mat Thompson <ocrr@...> wrote:


There is a question of where did the 1952 date come from for conversion of Mather cars to 50 feet.
 
The January 1998 Model Railroader article by Jim Teese says conversions began in 1952. He also said his source information came from the Burlington Route Historical Society Bulletin no. 25 (April 1992) which is still listed on their website but I have not seen it.
 
Jeff Wilson, in his Kalmbach book Livestock & Meatpacking, says Mather “In the late 50s, rebuilt some of it 40-foot cars into 50-footers” (page 19). The same Burlington Route Bulletin is listed in the book’s Bibliography but I don’t know if that is the source of the late 50s comment.
 
Mat Thompson
 
 
 


Re: 50' Mather stock cars

Richard Townsend
 

I agree that primary sources would be best, but the ideal primary material - the Mather records - likely do not exist. A wonderful alternative would be an article from Railway Age or similar periodicals showcasing, or at least reporting, the 50-foot rebuilds. ORER records are less desirable, but they are somewhat helpful. 

Lacking the ability to search relevant periodicals, I asked Hol Wagner, the author of the Burlington Bulletin, whether he recalled the source he relied on. Here is what he told me: " The information came to me from longtime BRHS member Bob Landregan who was chief engineer of North American Car Co. when he had the plans drawn up for the construction of these cars, and they bear a 1952 date.  He wasn't sure that the work was actually undertaken that year, so I said "in about 1952" in the BB. "

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Breyer via groups.io <rtbsvrr69@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Jan 5, 2021 6:21 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] 50' Mather stock cars

I'm looking for primary source material, not "hobby wisdom". It appears that "the Fifties" as a date came from the Burlington article. Where did that piece get its information from?

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL




On Monday, January 4, 2021, 07:23:11 PM CST, Mat Thompson <ocrr@...> wrote:


There is a question of where did the 1952 date come from for conversion of Mather cars to 50 feet.
 
The January 1998 Model Railroader article by Jim Teese says conversions began in 1952. He also said his source information came from the Burlington Route Historical Society Bulletin no. 25 (April 1992) which is still listed on their website but I have not seen it.
 
Jeff Wilson, in his Kalmbach book Livestock & Meatpacking, says Mather “In the late 50s, rebuilt some of it 40-foot cars into 50-footers” (page 19). The same Burlington Route Bulletin is listed in the book’s Bibliography but I don’t know if that is the source of the late 50s comment.
 
Mat Thompson
 
 
 


Re: Photo: Installing A New Deck On A Flat Car (Undated)

mopacfirst
 

You learn something every day from sites like this.  I'd never heard of a plow bolt before.

I looked these up and it turns out there is an American standard for them, ASME B18.9.  That means something to me, since I made my living from standards.  Of course, there are even more special versions made specially for heavy duty plows (think Caterpillar), but the regular flat head one as used for flatcar decking, and possibly other freight car uses, is shown here --

https://www.aftfasteners.com/plow-bolts-dimensions-technical-information/

For HO modeling purposes, it reduces to a round dot, as David said.  But at least now I know the reason that this is true.

Ron Merrick


Re: H.C. Frick Hoppers

Eric Hansmann
 

Bowser produced a GLa decorated for Frick. It’s about halfway down this page on the left.

https://www.bowser-trains.com/history/glahistory.html

 

it does not seem like they have produced the H21 with Frick lettering.

https://www.bowser-trains.com/history/h21history.html

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2021 1:15 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] H.C. Frick Hoppers

 

Hi Larry and List Members,

 

Larry asked: "Bowser produced an H.C. Frick GLC hopper car.  Did Frick indeed have hoppers and if so what happened to them"

 

Let's take this one step at a time...

 

(1) "Bowser produced an H.C. Frick GLC hopper car" - Larry, are you sure they produced a GLC? I thought they produced a GLa, in both HO and N scales... but I am an N scaler myself and so I don't thoroughly know their HO offerings.

 

(2) "Did Frick indeed have hoppers" - the answer is yes, they did. See attached image of a Frick hopper - the car in the image is a PRR class H21a clone. See also Feb 2002 RMJ paper page 23 for an image of PRR GLa design car HCF 4001, available at the link below...

 

 

(3) "what happened to them" - in the above RMJ article, Richard Burg writes: "...sold off the GLa fleet, probably to the PRR"

 

Hope this helps.

 

Claus Schlund

 


Re: 1932 ARA MP cars and atlas

Brian Rochon
 

The attached table was compiled by Ted Culotta and Ed Hawkins in 2017.  Includes many details of the prototypes.

 

Brian Rochon

Silver Spring, MD

 

 

On Tue, Jan 5, 2021 at 1:44 PM Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...> wrote:

Brian Carlson asked:
"Does anyone know what body style of the atlas 1932 ARA car I need for Missouri Pacific prototype? There used to be a description of the body styles on the atlas website but I can’t find it."

Fenton Wells added: 
"...if you find it please publish it as I would like to know as well."


Re: 1932 ARA MP cars and atlas

akerboomk
 

To find “old” Atlas stuff (in general)

From main page ( https://shop.atlasrr.com/ ):

-       Production -> Archive

-       Drop down scale (HO/N/O) -> pick type (“Trainman” vs. “Masters”, or as appropriate)

-       Scroll thru list to find car you are interested in, click on that link

 


--
Ken Akerboom


Re: H.C. Frick Hoppers

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Larry and List Members,
 
Larry asked: "Bowser produced an H.C. Frick GLC hopper car.  Did Frick indeed have hoppers and if so what happened to them"
 
Let's take this one step at a time...
 
(1) "Bowser produced an H.C. Frick GLC hopper car" - Larry, are you sure they produced a GLC? I thought they produced a GLa, in both HO and N scales... but I am an N scaler myself and so I don't thoroughly know their HO offerings.
 
(2) "Did Frick indeed have hoppers" - the answer is yes, they did. See attached image of a Frick hopper - the car in the image is a PRR class H21a clone. See also Feb 2002 RMJ paper page 23 for an image of PRR GLa design car HCF 4001, available at the link below...
 
 
(3) "what happened to them" - in the above RMJ article, Richard Burg writes: "...sold off the GLa fleet, probably to the PRR"
 
Hope this helps.
 
Claus Schlund
 


Photo: Installing A New Deck On A Flat Car (Undated)

Malcolm H. Houck
 

Those bolts used on flat car decks, with a square shank below the head (similar to a carriage bolt), but with a flat and countersunk head are actually called "Plow Bolts." Installed, there is no (rounded) head protruding above, and used (obviously) on historic farmers' plow with wooden structures.The flush heads would not interfere with other fittings or tackle on the plow. 

Specialty hardware suppliers still inventory Plow Bolts.
 
Mal Houck

8801 - 8820 of 189574