Date   

Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Burning Box Car

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Man, that is wild!

 

Thanks for sharing, Tim!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2021 12:46 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Burning Box Car

 


Perhaps -- but exploding ammunition box cars usually make a BIGGER mess than that.

On 2/25/2021 11:16 AM, Ken Vandevoort wrote:

I am going to take a wild guess about the photo.  In the late 60's, a westbound Burlington freight train had a boxcar of bombs or some sort of ammunition from the Iowa Ordinance Plant in Middletown, Iowa.  The train was west of Chillicothe, Iowa and east of Albia, Iowa.  This was an area where the double track is physically split and not next to each other.  A hotbox caught the wood floor of the car on fire and the car blew up.  There was a casualty and it was a hobo.  I later was introduced to a railroader and he was the conductor on that train.  That is a steam crane. If this was the event, the crane was probably out of Galesburg.  I don't think the BN merger had taken place yet when the train blew up or else it was fairly new.  This may not be the event, but the scenario would fit.

I was stationed overseas when this happened.  When I returned home, a friend showed me where the car blew up.  There was still nothing growing in that area.

Ken Vandevoort


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Burning Box Car

Tim O'Connor
 


Perhaps -- but exploding ammunition box cars usually make a BIGGER mess than that.

On 2/25/2021 11:16 AM, Ken Vandevoort wrote:
I am going to take a wild guess about the photo.  In the late 60's, a westbound Burlington freight train had a boxcar of bombs or some sort of ammunition from the Iowa Ordinance Plant in Middletown, Iowa.  The train was west of Chillicothe, Iowa and east of Albia, Iowa.  This was an area where the double track is physically split and not next to each other.  A hotbox caught the wood floor of the car on fire and the car blew up.  There was a casualty and it was a hobo.  I later was introduced to a railroader and he was the conductor on that train.  That is a steam crane. If this was the event, the crane was probably out of Galesburg.  I don't think the BN merger had taken place yet when the train blew up or else it was fairly new.  This may not be the event, but the scenario would fit.

I was stationed overseas when this happened.  When I returned home, a friend showed me where the car blew up.  There was still nothing growing in that area.

Ken Vandevoort

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Mystery Tank Car IDs

Bruce Smith
 

Garth,

Neat photos! CMTX 465 and TKX 700 appear to be STC high walkway, radial course tanks. The date on the CMTX car seems pretty uncertain, but possibly post WWII, while the TKX car photo, if I am reading the repack on the car next to it correctly, was taken in the early 1930s (1931? or maybe 1934? for the repack).

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Feb 25, 2021, at 6:57 AM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:

Friends,

I've been perplexed for a number of years by several tank car photos I've scavenged for possible future models (Yeah, right!). Today I spent a couple of hours playing detective, and can offer the IDs for three tanks that were a mystery to me.

CMTX 465 probably belongs to "John Shatford, Agent". These marks were in use from 1935 to 1947, but they were used for other operators after our period of interest. Information on this car comes from Ian Cranstone's pages, which have a huge list of private reporting marks.

QTX 106 is from Quaker City Tank Line. Actually, if I had blown this up to gragantuan size sooner, I would have seen "Quaker City Tank Line" on the right side of the tank. (Sigh!) QTX was used between 1930 to 1932, and again in 1935 by General American. 

Finally, we have TKX 700. This car belonged to Thomas Keery Co. Their fleet cas active under these marks from 1920 to 1935, and again from 1937 to 1945. I found their listing, including this very car, in a 1937 ORER online. Sadly, Google Books only allowed a partial view of the page, and information about the ownership and home yard for their fleet was cut off. I was able to discover that Keery apparently refined phenols, esters and other chemicals from coal tar. Patents in this company's name are recorded for the phenol refining process.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆





<OSCAR MAYER TANK CAR CMTX 465.jpg><QUAKER TANK LINE TANK CAR 6106.jpg><THOMAS KEERY CO. TANK CAR TKX 700.tif>


Re: Burning Box Car also burnt flat also burnt gons

Bruce Smith
 

Elden,

The PRR F28 is, as you know, an all steel car, so other than the paint and a few rubber parts, there isn’t anything to burn. Best I can think is that the load burnt, or at least the cribbing on the load, or the car was in a derailment, essentially not damaged, but burnt by cars nearby.

My favorite accounts of burning railroad cars comes from the PRR’s Octoraro branch. Located between Wawa and the Susquehanna River at Rock (in Maryland) and serving the booming city of Kennett Square, Pa, self proclaimed “Mushroom Capital of the World”, the Octoraro was ideally situated to receive the byproducts of the horse training and racing industry, concentrated near the nearby cities and burbs of NJ, PA, DE, and MD.  Manure intermixed with straw, was shipped in composite gondolas (typically classes GR and GRA). Said mixture, in the process of decomposing or composting, has a habit of getting hot, and so these loads had an unpleasant habit of spontaneously combusting. The train crew would pull the car to the nearest grade crossing where the local fire department was summoned to extinguish the blaze. The PRR ultimately was forced to embargo that cargo, as local fire departments started to refuse to respond to the calls. 

Still working on a burnt out tank car model…

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

On Feb 25, 2021, at 10:12 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...> wrote:

Bill;
 
I wish I still had my copy, but it never got back to me after I loaned it.  That is a FABULOUS photo.  I looked at it often.  I wish I had that one in my digital files.
 
There is a lot of correspondence on car fires in the files of the PRRT&HS, which shipped a surprising amount of coke in box cars, and can attest to the practice of loading coke still hot from the ovens, thinking it was cooled.  The coke burned its way thru the pile, igniting cooled coke, until it reached the car side or floor, then torching the car.
 
Local fire departments HATED the RRs, since the loads, or hot boxes, sometimes ignited dry vegetation next to the ROW, then attacked neighboring structures.  RRs had to create their own fire-fighting cars, but they never arrived on-scene in time.  LOTS of hate mail on that.
 
Train crew had to act quickly to deal with a car on fire, and break the train to get the car off the main to a suitable siding.  Sometimes this didn’t work.  Plus, a burning car load of coke out in the boonies did not have access to city water, so they sometimes just let it burn out….like that car in the photo.
 
The gon I mentioned was burnt out, I think, by a hot steel load, which burned one end of the car.  The practice of putting hot coil or slabs over the trucks resulted in that strange outcome.
 
There was also a composite gon I remember that was burnt to the framing, with literally NO remaining lettering.  The heat of the fire even burned the lettering off the frame.  It was around for years, and years later I was told no one could ID whose car it was.  They eventually broke it up for scrap.  I did a model in HO of that car, for parking on a siding, to see what the operators did with it.  It was ALWAYS ignored.
 
So, what do you all make of this?  This is a PRR F28 built to haul turbines out of the East Pittsburgh Westinghouse plant.  I cannot find the correspondence.  Attached….
 
Elden Gatwood


Re: For Throwback Thursday: Santa Fe express boxcar 4155

Mark Kapka
 

Hi

Another fine work of art. As always.

Mark Kapka


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Burning Box Car

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Fabulous story, Ken!

 

This is the weird stuff we rarely talk about, but is fascinating.

 

The correspondence is a good read, because the car owner and RR on which the car was destroyed/damaged, usually carried on a peppery dialog on whose fault it was.  “It was YOUR maintenance responsibility!”  “Yeah but you loaded it with hot steel!”

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ken Vandevoort
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2021 11:17 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Burning Box Car

 

I am going to take a wild guess about the photo.  In the late 60's, a westbound Burlington freight train had a boxcar of bombs or some sort of ammunition from the Iowa Ordinance Plant in Middletown, Iowa.  The train was west of Chillicothe, Iowa and east of Albia, Iowa.  This was an area where the double track is physically split and not next to each other.  A hotbox caught the wood floor of the car on fire and the car blew up.  There was a casualty and it was a hobo.  I later was introduced to a railroader and he was the conductor on that train.  That is a steam crane. If this was the event, the crane was probably out of Galesburg.  I don't think the BN merger had taken place yet when the train blew up or else it was fairly new.  This may not be the event, but the scenario would fit.

I was stationed overseas when this happened.  When I returned home, a friend showed me where the car blew up.  There was still nothing growing in that area.

Ken Vandevoort


Re: Burning Box Car

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Mont;

 

Thanks for those insights!

 

Any photos?

 

PRR went to all-steel gons with coke containers sometime toward the mid/late fifties due to that same problem.  Some customers did not adequately cool their coke before loading.

 

If you’ve watched a quenching, you can understand why.

 

I also talked to a rear end brakeman (IIRC) who said they could tell a coke fire from a steel fire, from a hot box, by the smell.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mont Switzer
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2021 11:01 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Burning Box Car

 

The Monon had the same problem with composite coke cars used as late at the 1960's. Coke was loaded in Indianapolis and hauled north to destinations throughout the Midwest.

 

It usually happed between Indianapolis and Monon.  Crew saw smoke, set the car out, local fire departments brought water, car usually burned all the way down, mechanical department picked up the remaining metal.

 

The Monon switched to gons with coke containers in the late 1960's.

 

Mont Switzer


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] on behalf of William Hirt [whirt@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2021 10:26 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Burning Box Car

In Morning Sun's Rock Island Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment by Steve Hile, there is a picture on page 34 of a Rock Island Outside Braced Wood Sheathed boxcar set off and burning in Cotter, Iowa, in May 1956. The caption states the car was carrying a load of coke. The supposition is either something set the coke on fire, or that the coke was still hot enough when it was loaded that it started a fire on it's own. The picture shows that one pile of the coke is still red hot with small amount of flames coming out the bottom of the car near the remaining door superstructure.

Bill Hirt

On 2/25/2021 8:11 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

Folks;

 

I’m sorry if we discussed this before, but I may have missed it.

 

What was the story behind this burning box car?

 

Does anyone have any photos of burning freight cars they can share?

 


Re: Burning Box Car

Ken Vandevoort
 

I am going to take a wild guess about the photo.  In the late 60's, a westbound Burlington freight train had a boxcar of bombs or some sort of ammunition from the Iowa Ordinance Plant in Middletown, Iowa.  The train was west of Chillicothe, Iowa and east of Albia, Iowa.  This was an area where the double track is physically split and not next to each other.  A hotbox caught the wood floor of the car on fire and the car blew up.  There was a casualty and it was a hobo.  I later was introduced to a railroader and he was the conductor on that train.  That is a steam crane. If this was the event, the crane was probably out of Galesburg.  I don't think the BN merger had taken place yet when the train blew up or else it was fairly new.  This may not be the event, but the scenario would fit.

I was stationed overseas when this happened.  When I returned home, a friend showed me where the car blew up.  There was still nothing growing in that area.

Ken Vandevoort


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Burning Box Car also burnt flat

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Bill;

 

I wish I still had my copy, but it never got back to me after I loaned it.  That is a FABULOUS photo.  I looked at it often.  I wish I had that one in my digital files.

 

There is a lot of correspondence on car fires in the files of the PRRT&HS, which shipped a surprising amount of coke in box cars, and can attest to the practice of loading coke still hot from the ovens, thinking it was cooled.  The coke burned its way thru the pile, igniting cooled coke, until it reached the car side or floor, then torching the car.

 

Local fire departments HATED the RRs, since the loads, or hot boxes, sometimes ignited dry vegetation next to the ROW, then attacked neighboring structures.  RRs had to create their own fire-fighting cars, but they never arrived on-scene in time.  LOTS of hate mail on that.

 

Train crew had to act quickly to deal with a car on fire, and break the train to get the car off the main to a suitable siding.  Sometimes this didn’t work.  Plus, a burning car load of coke out in the boonies did not have access to city water, so they sometimes just let it burn out….like that car in the photo.

 

The gon I mentioned was burnt out, I think, by a hot steel load, which burned one end of the car.  The practice of putting hot coil or slabs over the trucks resulted in that strange outcome.

 

There was also a composite gon I remember that was burnt to the framing, with literally NO remaining lettering.  The heat of the fire even burned the lettering off the frame.  It was around for years, and years later I was told no one could ID whose car it was.  They eventually broke it up for scrap.  I did a model in HO of that car, for parking on a siding, to see what the operators did with it.  It was ALWAYS ignored.

 

So, what do you all make of this?  This is a PRR F28 built to haul turbines out of the East Pittsburgh Westinghouse plant.  I cannot find the correspondence.  Attached….

 

Elden Gatwood

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of William Hirt
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2021 10:26 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Burning Box Car

 

In Morning Sun's Rock Island Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment by Steve Hile, there is a picture on page 34 of a Rock Island Outside Braced Wood Sheathed boxcar set off and burning in Cotter, Iowa, in May 1956. The caption states the car was carrying a load of coke. The supposition is either something set the coke on fire, or that the coke was still hot enough when it was loaded that it started a fire on it's own. The picture shows that one pile of the coke is still red hot with small amount of flames coming out the bottom of the car near the remaining door superstructure.

Bill Hirt

On 2/25/2021 8:11 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

Folks;

 

I’m sorry if we discussed this before, but I may have missed it.

 

What was the story behind this burning box car?

 

Does anyone have any photos of burning freight cars they can share?

 


Re: Burning Box Car

Mont Switzer
 

The Monon had the same problem with composite coke cars used as late at the 1960's. Coke was loaded in Indianapolis and hauled north to destinations throughout the Midwest.

It usually happed between Indianapolis and Monon.  Crew saw smoke, set the car out, local fire departments brought water, car usually burned all the way down, mechanical department picked up the remaining metal.

The Monon switched to gons with coke containers in the late 1960's.

Mont Switzer


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] on behalf of William Hirt [whirt@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2021 10:26 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Burning Box Car

In Morning Sun's Rock Island Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment by Steve Hile, there is a picture on page 34 of a Rock Island Outside Braced Wood Sheathed boxcar set off and burning in Cotter, Iowa, in May 1956. The caption states the car was carrying a load of coke. The supposition is either something set the coke on fire, or that the coke was still hot enough when it was loaded that it started a fire on it's own. The picture shows that one pile of the coke is still red hot with small amount of flames coming out the bottom of the car near the remaining door superstructure.

Bill Hirt

On 2/25/2021 8:11 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

Folks;

 

I’m sorry if we discussed this before, but I may have missed it.

 

What was the story behind this burning box car?

 

Does anyone have any photos of burning freight cars they can share?

 


Re: Burning Box Car

William Hirt
 

In Morning Sun's Rock Island Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment by Steve Hile, there is a picture on page 34 of a Rock Island Outside Braced Wood Sheathed boxcar set off and burning in Cotter, Iowa, in May 1956. The caption states the car was carrying a load of coke. The supposition is either something set the coke on fire, or that the coke was still hot enough when it was loaded that it started a fire on it's own. The picture shows that one pile of the coke is still red hot with small amount of flames coming out the bottom of the car near the remaining door superstructure.

Bill Hirt

On 2/25/2021 8:11 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

Folks;

 

I’m sorry if we discussed this before, but I may have missed it.

 

What was the story behind this burning box car?

 

Does anyone have any photos of burning freight cars they can share?

 


Re: Foobie

Ed
 

Having served a lifetime in the Navy, I can attest to Tony's statement. I would equate FUBAR with FOOBIE.

Ed Robinson


Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Burning Box Car

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Tim;

 

Thanks for the fabulous photo!  I have not seen that one.  Wonder how the tank car ignited?

 

I saw a lot of burnt cars on the PRR during childhood.  Hot steel and wooden parts don’t mix. 

 

There was a burnt gon for years on an unused siding I saw regularly while raifanning.  I had a pic but lost it from a flood.

 

Thanks again!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2021 9:22 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Burning Box Car

 


Wood floors; flaming journal boxes? :-D

I saw flames passing by under a box car once, in the late 1970's in Ann Arbor, on a
Penn (old Michigan) Central freight along the Huron River.

Of course, who knows what started this particular fire?

I've attached Edward Kindig's fire photo for your enjoyment.


On 2/25/2021 9:11 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

Folks;

 

I’m sorry if we discussed this before, but I may have missed it.

 

What was the story behind this burning box car?

 

Does anyone have any photos of burning freight cars they can share?

 

Thanks!

 

Elden Gatwood

Attachments:

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Burning Box Car

Tim O'Connor
 


Wood floors; flaming journal boxes? :-D

I saw flames passing by under a box car once, in the late 1970's in Ann Arbor, on a
Penn (old Michigan) Central freight along the Huron River.

Of course, who knows what started this particular fire?

I've attached Edward Kindig's fire photo for your enjoyment.


On 2/25/2021 9:11 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

Folks;

 

I’m sorry if we discussed this before, but I may have missed it.

 

What was the story behind this burning box car?

 

Does anyone have any photos of burning freight cars they can share?

 

Thanks!

 

Elden Gatwood

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: For Throwback Thursday: Santa Fe express boxcar 4155

James Brewer
 

A very nice looking car!

Jim Brewer


Burning Box Car

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Folks;

 

I’m sorry if we discussed this before, but I may have missed it.

 

What was the story behind this burning box car?

 

Does anyone have any photos of burning freight cars they can share?

 

Thanks!

 

Elden Gatwood


Mystery Tank Car IDs

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Friends,

I've been perplexed for a number of years by several tank car photos I've scavenged for possible future models (Yeah, right!). Today I spent a couple of hours playing detective, and can offer the IDs for three tanks that were a mystery to me.

CMTX 465 probably belongs to "John Shatford, Agent". These marks were in use from 1935 to 1947, but they were used for other operators after our period of interest. Information on this car comes from Ian Cranstone's pages, which have a huge list of private reporting marks.

QTX 106 is from Quaker City Tank Line. Actually, if I had blown this up to gragantuan size sooner, I would have seen "Quaker City Tank Line" on the right side of the tank. (Sigh!) QTX was used between 1930 to 1932, and again in 1935 by General American. 

Finally, we have TKX 700. This car belonged to Thomas Keery Co. Their fleet cas active under these marks from 1920 to 1935, and again from 1937 to 1945. I found their listing, including this very car, in a 1937 ORER online. Sadly, Google Books only allowed a partial view of the page, and information about the ownership and home yard for their fleet was cut off. I was able to discover that Keery apparently refined phenols, esters and other chemicals from coal tar. Patents in this company's name are recorded for the phenol refining process.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆






Re: Foobie

spsalso
 

But, but, but you just added another post!

And so did I, just now!


Arghhhh.....


Ed

Edward Sutorik


For Throwback Thursday: Santa Fe express boxcar 4155

Richard Scott
 

For Throwback Thursday I’m posting this photo of my new O‑scale Santa Fe express boxcar, a recent pandemic project.  It started out as an automobile car that the late Jim Pierce built from a vintage Athearn kit.  I bought it from Jim and ran it for thirty years before rebuilding it as an Fe‑24 express car.

During the rebuild I stripped the car’s silk-screened sides, replaced its rough stamped metal doors and roof walks with scratchbuilt parts, and added bracket grab irons and brake hoses.  I painted it with Scalecoat and Floquil enamels, and lettered it with Protocraft decals.  This livery was applied to Santa Fe’s 300 Fe‑24 express cars from 1943 until 1958.

I have an album featuring some of my freight car models on the first page of our photo section.  These cars are all O scale and include everything from scratchbuilds to modified RTR cars.  I hope you will enjoy looking through them.

Dick Scott

 


Re: Seeking Logos For Bulk Oil Tanks

Jeff Ford
 

Bill,

Microscale did sets to letter the City Classics HO gas station kit.  The Flying A set is 87-874 and the Gulf set is 87-902. 

Happy hunting.
-Jeff Ford
Sanger, TX

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