Date   

Re: Red Owl warehouse

np328
 

    I gave a presentation years ago by now on national reefer movements which covered about a two year time frame and can give several reason why canned goods by reefers many of which I am sure Tony is familiar with from compiling his book (that I need to remember to bring to the next RPM and get signed.)

I had based this talk on actual AAR documents from 1956 - 1957. Not ideally my my modeled time frame of 1953 however close.

Philip, 
   On their return trip in order to expedite them homeward, you could get three reefers for the price of one boxcar in the STMFC era.
Find more on the guidelines here: https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/files/Refrigerator%20Cars%20for%20Box%20Cars    John Barry was kind enough to put them all into a pdf, found on the bottom link. That might be easiest to look thru.  And getting three cars for one. That might offset the loss of bunker space. And to keep temperatures uniform might be advantageous to higher end gourmet canned goods. Or keep Captain Crunch crunchy in a muggy summer. 

         Reefers surprisingly - were busiest in winter time, providing what was referred to as Protective Service. Sometime protected from heat, other times cold. 
To see what, look in the files here:  https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/files/Perishable%20Commodities,%20definition%20and%20list%20of   
       Many goods need to be protected from temp extremes, and the above list shows many things that might be delivered to the "dirty bird" warehouse, a meme for Red Owl that was not uncommon here in the Twin Cities.  (In college that was a very welcome sight as one of my roommates mom often sent him up with extra groceries - for your house mates, and that Owl on several bags was a welcome sight. However didn't stop one of the fellows from stating, Ah, see your mom still shops at dirty bird.)

And at my presentation, someone walked out of the room commenting that it was a nice presentation, however they did not model winter.
         OK, think about that for just a moment, if winter is the busiest time for reefers, so the rest of the year there are reefer surpluses (mostly in spring and fall) and so these are the times one would see them hauling commodities - other than just harvested fruits and vegies.                       Jim Dick - Roseville, MN 
 


Re: heavy duty trucks on B&LE hoppers

Corey Bonsall
 

Just an educated guess, but could it be some sort of empty / full switch, as to allow only partial braking power when the car was empty to keep it from locking up the wheels?  I know the Kennecott ore car folio sheets (which also used clasp trucks) mentioned some sort of arrangement to use different braking systems depending on whether the car was empty or loaded.

Corey Bonsall


Re: Mystery Tank Car IDs

Steve and Barb Hile
 

An ORER from earlier, 1935, shows 14 cars

 

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of John Barry
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2021 9:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Mystery Tank Car IDs

 

Garth,

 

Oct 44: TKX 300, 600, 2 cars. remittances to Thomas Keery Co., Inc. owner (shipper) Hancock, NY

 

John Barry

 

ATSF North Bay Lines 

Golden Gates & Fast Freights 

Lovettsville, VA

 

 

707-490-9696 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Thursday, February 25, 2021, 07:57:55 AM EST, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:

 

 

Friends,

 

I've been perplexed for a number of years by several tank car photos I've scavenged for possible future models (Yeah, right!). Today I spent a couple of hours playing detective, and can offer the IDs for three tanks that were a mystery to me.

 

CMTX 465 probably belongs to "John Shatford, Agent". These marks were in use from 1935 to 1947, but they were used for other operators after our period of interest. Information on this car comes from Ian Cranstone's pages, which have a huge list of private reporting marks.

 

QTX 106 is from Quaker City Tank Line. Actually, if I had blown this up to gragantuan size sooner, I would have seen "Quaker City Tank Line" on the right side of the tank. (Sigh!) QTX was used between 1930 to 1932, and again in 1935 by General American. 

 

Finally, we have TKX 700. This car belonged to Thomas Keery Co. Their fleet cas active under these marks from 1920 to 1935, and again from 1937 to 1945. I found their listing, including this very car, in a 1937 ORER online. Sadly, Google Books only allowed a partial view of the page, and information about the ownership and home yard for their fleet was cut off. I was able to discover that Keery apparently refined phenols, esters and other chemicals from coal tar. Patents in this company's name are recorded for the phenol refining process.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff  🦆

 

 

 

 

 


Re: Mystery Tank Car IDs

John Barry
 

Garth,

Oct 44: TKX 300, 600, 2 cars. remittances to Thomas Keery Co., Inc. owner (shipper) Hancock, NY

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA


707-490-9696 






On Thursday, February 25, 2021, 07:57:55 AM EST, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


Friends,

I've been perplexed for a number of years by several tank car photos I've scavenged for possible future models (Yeah, right!). Today I spent a couple of hours playing detective, and can offer the IDs for three tanks that were a mystery to me.

CMTX 465 probably belongs to "John Shatford, Agent". These marks were in use from 1935 to 1947, but they were used for other operators after our period of interest. Information on this car comes from Ian Cranstone's pages, which have a huge list of private reporting marks.

QTX 106 is from Quaker City Tank Line. Actually, if I had blown this up to gragantuan size sooner, I would have seen "Quaker City Tank Line" on the right side of the tank. (Sigh!) QTX was used between 1930 to 1932, and again in 1935 by General American. 

Finally, we have TKX 700. This car belonged to Thomas Keery Co. Their fleet cas active under these marks from 1920 to 1935, and again from 1937 to 1945. I found their listing, including this very car, in a 1937 ORER online. Sadly, Google Books only allowed a partial view of the page, and information about the ownership and home yard for their fleet was cut off. I was able to discover that Keery apparently refined phenols, esters and other chemicals from coal tar. Patents in this company's name are recorded for the phenol refining process.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆






Re: Burning Box Car

SamClarke
 

I sent this to Dan a few moments ago.

 

Dan, thanks for your comments.

 

I was working at the Naval Depot in Hawthorne (NADHAW) at the time, When they brought back some of the unexploded bombs we done a lot of testing including sawing bombs in half to check if there were too many voids in the explosive castings.  Without their fuses the bombs are actually really safe. They actually have a very high cook off temp so we knew the box cars were burning quite a lot before the bombs went off.

 

 


Re: Burning Box Car

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Sam and Friends,

My parents lived in Roseville, just a block from the eastbound yard throat. They were thankfully beyond the danger zone, which was closer to the west end where the explosions flattened the village of Antelope. I was in college down in Southern California at that time, and finally was able to get through on a pay phone (no cell phones yet, and the school's phones in the dorms didn't allow long distance). My parents were o.k., but shaken by all the explosions.

I never saw photos of the cars themselves, but these were probably ex-USN, by then DODX 50', 1 1/2 door PS-1s with a 10' IH (see attached; car preserved at the Western Railway Museum. Note the Chrysler trucks.). Certainly unique cars, and actually built within our period of interest. The explosives were iron bombs destined for Vietnam, but at least one tank car of LP gas was blown into the sky when the fire reached it. When the UP rebuilt the yard a few years after the SP take-over, their contractors found several unexploded bombs that had lain under the tracks for 25 or so years.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆




On Thu, Feb 25, 2021 at 4:28 PM SamClarke via groups.io <samc=kadee.com@groups.io> wrote:

Although past the dates of this group, in April 1973 a bomb laden train blew up in Roseville, CA it was cause by a hot wheel or journal box. The train just arrive at the SP yard after descending the Sierra Nevada Mountain’s Donner summit. The train originated from The then Naval Depot Hawthorne, Nevada. Many of the box cars were owned by the Government. There are a number of videos available.

 

 

 

Sam Clarke

R&D / Tech Advisor / Artist

Kadee Quality Products Co.

mail@...

541-826-3883

 


Re: heavy duty trucks on B&LE hoppers

akerboomk
 

Speaking of these trucks...
Anyone know what is this "widget" attached to the truck?
Damping device?
Over-travel (or over-load) limiter?
Image extracted from https://pullman-lib.smugmug.com/Railroad-B/i-RKmpP4m/A


--
Ken Akerboom


Mystery Tank Car IDs

David
 

CMTX 465 and TKX 700 are those high-walkway cars most likely built by Pennsylvania Tank Car in the early-mid Teens, using the underframe that Standard Tank Car adopted when it started up.
QTX 6108 is a mid-1920s GATC underframe.

David Thompson


Re: Foobie

Ken Adams
 

I picked up the term "foobie" from Tony's blog as meaning a stand in that will just have to do until I find the right parts at a reasonable cost to reasonably accurately model the prototype or I can afford to buy that brass engine (painted SP C-9 consolidations) that never comes on the market at a price I can afford. A lot of background freight cars on my layout are probably foobies to give the illusion of a certain level of the correct freight traffic car type mix. I will admit to being more of an impressionistic freight and passenger traffic modeler while I strive for higher accuracy in the structures and the physical railroad environment.

I certainly wouldn't display them on this or other extreme modeling groups.  However, I will tolerate a certain level of stand in on my own Plastic Freight Car builders group as long as the modeler acknowledges any major shortcomings and explains the reason behind the compromise.  
--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek
Have had my second jab of Pfizer and can see light at the end of the long dark tunnel
Owner PlasticFreightCarBuilders@groups.io


Re: Burning Box Car

SamClarke
 

Although past the dates of this group, in April 1973 a bomb laden train blew up in Roseville, CA it was cause by a hot wheel or journal box. The train just arrive at the SP yard after descending the Sierra Nevada Mountain’s Donner summit. The train originated from The then Naval Depot Hawthorne, Nevada. Many of the box cars were owned by the Government. There are a number of videos available.

 

 

 

Sam Clarke

R&D / Tech Advisor / Artist

Kadee Quality Products Co.

mail@...

541-826-3883

 


Re: Red Owl warehouse

Tony Thompson
 

Dave Nelson wrote:

I do know the Western Pacific’s few reefers were used primarily for canned food. 

  What era are you thinking of, Dave? In the era of this list, all the reefers WP owned were leased to PFE and entirely operated by PFE, meaning that the distribution of reefers to shippers was by PFE, not WP. It is well known that the WP reefers were entirely mixed within the PFE fleet and were definitely NOT preferentially sent to shippers on WP lines for loading.
     I would add that there was certainly a considerable amount of fresh produce shipped from WP lines, hardly less and probably more than canned goods. 

Tony Thompson




Re: Private: Re: [RealSTMFC] Mystery Tank Car IDs

Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Friends,

Mel pointed out that I had inadvertently posted the photo of TKX 700 as a tif instead of a jpeg. Well, I had the jpeg up on my screen, but clicked on the wrong link. In case any of you couldn't open the tif (they don't play well with io), here is the jpeg.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆


On Thu, Feb 25, 2021 at 8:27 AM Mel Perry <clipper841@...> wrote:
garth:
any particular reason that you posted the
keery tank file as a "tif" instead of a "jpg"
thanks
mel perry


Re: Burning Box Car

 

Hello Rupert,

Thanks for the photo attachment.

The burnt out car to the right in the photo looks to me to be a PFE R-30/40-18,19 or 21. A chance to see the underlying steel side framing that made these cars so long lasting.
The burnt out car behind is probable another.

Dan Smith


Re: Red Owl warehouse

Dave Nelson
 

I expect in the winter reefers were used to keep the contents from freezing.

 

I do know the Western Pacific’s few reefers were used primarily for canned food. 

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Philip Dove
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2021 1:11 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Red Owl warehouse

 

Why were canned goods shipped in refrigerator cars? I have alway treated canned goods as something that do not need any special storage. I'm British and my understanding of canned means the produce is in a hermetically sealed tin that will keep the ingredients fresh for at least a few years. I know in America canned includes mason jars and glassware, but I still don't see the need for reefers. Were the cars ones that had brought uncanned fresh produce into the plant so canned goods were a logical backhaul load.

 

Virus-free. www.avast.com


Re: Foobie

Dave Nelson
 

I’ve read all of the opinions in the Foobie thread and my honest conclusion about it is this:  I miss Richard.  Always interesting, always well informed.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2021 12:11 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Foobie

 

Dave Nelson wrote:



I always assumed it was a Richard Hendrickson-ism.  It’s been on used on STMFC for such a long time, probably going all the way back to Tim O’Connor’s e-mail list.

 

  Richard said he learned it in the Navy, from FUBAR. I have never heard of the term applied to silicone body parts, and in fact would suspect that's a "false construction."

 

Tony Thompson


Re: Burning Box Car

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

That’s fabulous!  Thanks, Rupert!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rupert Gamlen
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2021 1:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Burning Box Car

 

Elden

There was a second photo of this event, as attached. I think that the only date given was the 50’s and no location.

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Friday, 26 February 2021 3:12 am
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Burning Box Car

 

Folks;

 

I’m sorry if we discussed this before, but I may have missed it.

 

What was the story behind this burning box car?

 

Does anyone have any photos of burning freight cars they can share?

 

Thanks!

 

Elden Gatwood


Re: Burning Box Car - wreck train gondola heritage?

Steven D Johnson
 

RE: The modified gondola coupled to the wrecker…Was that car part of a CB&Q revenue series of the same design?

 

 

Steve Johnson

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2021 8:12 AM
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Burning Box Car

 

Folks;

 

I’m sorry if we discussed this before, but I may have missed it.

 

What was the story behind this burning box car?

 

Does anyone have any photos of burning freight cars they can share?

 

Thanks!

 

Elden Gatwood


Re: Burning Box Car

Richard Townsend
 

I also suspect one wouldn’t see people casually standing around burning ammunition cars.


On Feb 25, 2021, at 10:06 AM, Rupert Gamlen <gamlenz@...> wrote:



Elden

There was a second photo of this event, as attached. I think that the only date given was the 50’s and no location.

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Friday, 26 February 2021 3:12 am
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Burning Box Car

 

Folks;

 

I’m sorry if we discussed this before, but I may have missed it.

 

What was the story behind this burning box car?

 

Does anyone have any photos of burning freight cars they can share?

 

Thanks!

 

Elden Gatwood

<Wreck and fire.jpg>


Re: Burning Box Car also burnt flat also burnt gons

Richard Townsend
 

For the Stauffer tank car a place to start might be one of the old metal tank cars from Globe or Athearn.


On Feb 25, 2021, at 9:58 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:



Any pics of that?  Newspaper pics?

 

This is the one I want….

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Smith
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2021 12:14 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Burning Box Car also burnt flat also burnt gons

 

Elden,

 

The PRR F28 is, as you know, an all steel car, so other than the paint and a few rubber parts, there isn’t anything to burn. Best I can think is that the load burnt, or at least the cribbing on the load, or the car was in a derailment, essentially not damaged, but burnt by cars nearby.

 

My favorite accounts of burning railroad cars comes from the PRR’s Octoraro branch. Located between Wawa and the Susquehanna River at Rock (in Maryland) and serving the booming city of Kennett Square, Pa, self proclaimed “Mushroom Capital of the World”, the Octoraro was ideally situated to receive the byproducts of the horse training and racing industry, concentrated near the nearby cities and burbs of NJ, PA, DE, and MD.  Manure intermixed with straw, was shipped in composite gondolas (typically classes GR and GRA). Said mixture, in the process of decomposing or composting, has a habit of getting hot, and so these loads had an unpleasant habit of spontaneously combusting. The train crew would pull the car to the nearest grade crossing where the local fire department was summoned to extinguish the blaze. The PRR ultimately was forced to embargo that cargo, as local fire departments started to refuse to respond to the calls. 

 

Still working on a burnt out tank car model…

 

Regards,

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL



On Feb 25, 2021, at 10:12 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...> wrote:

 

Bill;

 

I wish I still had my copy, but it never got back to me after I loaned it.  That is a FABULOUS photo.  I looked at it often.  I wish I had that one in my digital files.

 

There is a lot of correspondence on car fires in the files of the PRRT&HS, which shipped a surprising amount of coke in box cars, and can attest to the practice of loading coke still hot from the ovens, thinking it was cooled.  The coke burned its way thru the pile, igniting cooled coke, until it reached the car side or floor, then torching the car.

 

Local fire departments HATED the RRs, since the loads, or hot boxes, sometimes ignited dry vegetation next to the ROW, then attacked neighboring structures.  RRs had to create their own fire-fighting cars, but they never arrived on-scene in time.  LOTS of hate mail on that.

 

Train crew had to act quickly to deal with a car on fire, and break the train to get the car off the main to a suitable siding.  Sometimes this didn’t work.  Plus, a burning car load of coke out in the boonies did not have access to city water, so they sometimes just let it burn out….like that car in the photo.

 

The gon I mentioned was burnt out, I think, by a hot steel load, which burned one end of the car.  The practice of putting hot coil or slabs over the trucks resulted in that strange outcome.

 

There was also a composite gon I remember that was burnt to the framing, with literally NO remaining lettering.  The heat of the fire even burned the lettering off the frame.  It was around for years, and years later I was told no one could ID whose car it was.  They eventually broke it up for scrap.  I did a model in HO of that car, for parking on a siding, to see what the operators did with it.  It was ALWAYS ignored.

 

So, what do you all make of this?  This is a PRR F28 built to haul turbines out of the East Pittsburgh Westinghouse plant.  I cannot find the correspondence.  Attached….

 

Elden Gatwood

<Stauffer SCHX 136 GATC type 30.jpg>


Re: Burning Box Car

Rupert Gamlen
 

Elden

There was a second photo of this event, as attached. I think that the only date given was the 50’s and no location.

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Sent: Friday, 26 February 2021 3:12 am
To: RealSTMFC@groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Burning Box Car

 

Folks;

 

I’m sorry if we discussed this before, but I may have missed it.

 

What was the story behind this burning box car?

 

Does anyone have any photos of burning freight cars they can share?

 

Thanks!

 

Elden Gatwood

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