Date   

Re: Burning Box Car

Philip Dove
 

the undersides of cars catching fire from the friction of brakes was a reality. In 1983 on thecp at the Spiral tunnels We passed a freight train coming down and a high proportion of the cars were smoking and some had flames around their trucks or smoke from  near the middle. The engineer told me this was the older clasp brakes setting fire to the accumulated dirt underneath the car. It was a normal occurence on westbound freight trains and rarely spread to the cars structure, before it cooled down.

Virus-free. www.avast.com


Re: Red Owl warehouse

Douglas Harding
 

Todd the sugar is interesting. Sugar beets were a common crop in Northern Iowa and Minnesota in 1949, with several sugar beet processing plants in the region. The NP could also have been hauling Hawaiian cane sugar from the PNW ports.

 

I also question the SLRX cars, whose reporting marks are often confused with Swift SRLX marks. But the numbers do match SLRX cars. Could the loads have been mis-labeled to reduce pilferage?

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Todd Sullivan via groups.io
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2021 8:46 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Red Owl warehouse

 

Hi Clark,

Wow!  That Excel workbook is a labor of love. 

It also raises lots of questions about where cars came from and where the loads out were going.  E.g., where did all that sugar in NP boxcars come from?  I don't suppose the seal books have origin or destination information?

I did find one set of questionable initials = SLRX (St Louis Refrigerator Line - beer), which I think should be SRLX (Swift Refrigerator Line - meat).  See rows 184-185.

Otherwise, a great wealth of information to ponder.

Thanks!!

Todd Sullivan


Re: Red Owl warehouse

Richard Townsend
 

Yeah, I think the SLRX should be SRLX. A common mistake. But what a job of putting this spreadsheet together! What struck me was the Hershey’s cars. I wonder if they did multiple deliveries per car, like some of the Swift cars did.


On Feb 26, 2021, at 6:46 PM, Todd Sullivan via groups.io <sullivant41@...> wrote:

Hi Clark,

Wow!  That Excel workbook is a labor of love. 

It also raises lots of questions about where cars came from and where the loads out were going.  E.g., where did all that sugar in NP boxcars come from?  I don't suppose the seal books have origin or destination information?

I did find one set of questionable initials = SLRX (St Louis Refrigerator Line - beer), which I think should be SRLX (Swift Refrigerator Line - meat).  See rows 184-185.

Otherwise, a great wealth of information to ponder.

Thanks!!

Todd Sullivan


Re: Red Owl warehouse

Todd Sullivan
 

Hi Clark,

Wow!  That Excel workbook is a labor of love. 

It also raises lots of questions about where cars came from and where the loads out were going.  E.g., where did all that sugar in NP boxcars come from?  I don't suppose the seal books have origin or destination information?

I did find one set of questionable initials = SLRX (St Louis Refrigerator Line - beer), which I think should be SRLX (Swift Refrigerator Line - meat).  See rows 184-185.

Otherwise, a great wealth of information to ponder.

Thanks!!

Todd Sullivan


Re: Red Owl warehouse

Douglas Harding
 

Fantastic job Clark. Lots of great information for the grocery business. Interesting that they only got nine loads of meat during this time period. And even more interesting three of those meat loads arrived in SLRX cars, ie Anheuser Busch beer cars. I’m going to assume most meat arrived via truck as did all dairy products.

 

From a Sanborn Map it looks like the warehouse was served by the GN, with the MSTL tracks across the street. The MILW would have been near by. https://www.loc.gov/resource/g4144mm.g04339195006A/?sp=45&r=-0.005,0.919,0.835,0.53,0

 

Red Owl was started in 1922 in Rochester MN, and opened their store in Hopkins in 1948, just the year before your report. This is soon after Western Grocer, a large grocery distributor based in Marshalltown IA was sold to an eastern conglomerate, who was consolidating the grocery industry.

 

Here is a photo of the plant in Hopkins https://hclib.tumblr.com/post/55193243271/new-red-owl-plant-in-hopkins-once-a-common-sight

Supervalu still has a large distribution center at this location.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Clark Propst
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2021 6:45 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Red Owl warehouse

 

I've pretty done all I can with the grocery warehouse cars. I've found plenty of mistakes. I'm sure there was more. Please take a look at your favorite road and let me know if changes are needed? Would be nice to be able to add car classes, I know the ATSF, SP, UP used them. The PRR classes are in the ORER.
Thanks
Clark


Re: Red Owl warehouse

Schleigh Mike
 

Light bulbs were another 'back fill' commodity for reefers and, western reefers that got close to Maine might ship seed potatoes west, but, they really were a reefer item were they not.

By the way those American Olean tiles that found their way onto reefers were loaded on the somewhat obscure Pittsburg Shawmut & Northern RR until April of 1947 and then by the Pennsylvania that took over switching the Olean portion that survived  the road's closing.

Mike Schleigh, Grove City in western Penna.

On Friday, February 26, 2021, 06:25:08 PM EST, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:


On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 02:08 PM, np328 wrote:
Other than bicycles, I have paperwork showing cigarettes, matches, tires, (yes tires) magazines and books were a big back-haul commodity as they were clean...

You can add ceramic tile to that list, which was typically shipped boxed to prevent damage, and the boxes were small enough (it's heavy!) to easily hand truck out through the narrow door. There was a distribution warehouse for American Olean tile in the neighborhood I grew up in, that received as many reefers as boxcars.

Dennis Storzek


Re: riveted PS-1's? (was Model Box Car End ID)

Tim O'Connor
 


That's really weird, Tony - I never knew that! Evidently Pullman finally caved (at least by 1959) and
allowed gussets to be applied to welded cars too! :-D



On 2/26/2021 7:47 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
Tim O'Connor wrote:

Chew on this - most PS-1 ends after 1950 had welded mid-seams. But NOT all of them. The
Southern Pacific riveted B-50-37 "PS-1" box cars built in 1955 also had riveted mid-seams on
their ends. 

SP piggybacked onto a C&O order for riveted 50-foot double-door box cars with PS-1 ends and underframes. Each road got 200 cars. The cars were built to C&O specs (Class B-34) and SP got the same cars. One reason for this was that SP wanted gussets at the lower door opening corners, and P-S would not modify the "standard" PS-1 body. But since the riveted cars were not "standard," the gussets could be specified. (See my box car book in the _SP Freight Cars_ series, p. 379). 

Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: L&N Woodrack -- 3

George Courtney
 

Great model.  It raised a question in my mind.  Did railroads offer shorter cars, of all types, to customers to help out smaller operations and keep them away from trucks?  Or was it a matter of the economics of the times?  For example, following the Depression, the shorter cars disappeared slowly?  Just curious.

George Courtney


Re: riveted PS-1's? (was Model Box Car End ID)

Tony Thompson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

Chew on this - most PS-1 ends after 1950 had welded mid-seams. But NOT all of them. The
Southern Pacific riveted B-50-37 "PS-1" box cars built in 1955 also had riveted mid-seams on
their ends. 

SP piggybacked onto a C&O order for riveted 50-foot double-door box cars with PS-1 ends and underframes. Each road got 200 cars. The cars were built to C&O specs (Class B-34) and SP got the same cars. One reason for this was that SP wanted gussets at the lower door opening corners, and P-S would not modify the "standard" PS-1 body. But since the riveted cars were not "standard," the gussets could be specified. (See my box car book in the _SP Freight Cars_ series, p. 379). 

Tony Thompson




Re: Red Owl warehouse

Clark Propst
 

I've pretty done all I can with the grocery warehouse cars. I've found plenty of mistakes. I'm sure there was more. Please take a look at your favorite road and let me know if changes are needed? Would be nice to be able to add car classes, I know the ATSF, SP, UP used them. The PRR classes are in the ORER.
Thanks
Clark


Re: riveted PS-1's? (was Model Box Car End ID)

Tim O'Connor
 


Dennis - were the cars built with PS-style welded underframes or AAR underframes? The
PS underframe had features not found on the AAR design.

I know that some welded cars with PS proprietary ends and roofs had AAR underframes.
And I think those were all built before 1950.

Chew on this - most PS-1 ends after 1950 had welded mid-seams. But NOT all of them. The
Southern Pacific riveted B-50-37 "PS-1" box cars built in 1955 also had riveted mid-seams on
their ends. I have not checked other roads' riveted cars for this feature, but now I wonder if
any had welded mid-seams along with their riveted sides.

I just think some roads preferred riveted sides!


On 2/26/2021 6:33 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 02:26 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Those PS-1 ends were used on everyone's riveted PS-1 box cars. :-D

I have a nit to pick... since the defining feature of a PS-1 boxcar is its welded construction, can there be a riveted PS-1? Or, is it simply an AAR boxcar with Pullman-Standard proprietary ends and roof? The AAR did draft new plates (drawing sheets) detailing those ends on the AAR standard car of the day. The sheets I saw were revised in 1962, just after the close of discussions here, but have had several earlier revisions.

Dennis Storzek

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Model Box Car End ID

Dennis Storzek
 

On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 02:26 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Those PS-1 ends were used on everyone's riveted PS-1 box cars. :-D

I have a nit to pick... since the defining feature of a PS-1 boxcar is its welded construction, can there be a riveted PS-1? Or, is it simply an AAR boxcar with Pullman-Standard proprietary ends and roof? The AAR did draft new plates (drawing sheets) detailing those ends on the AAR standard car of the day. The sheets I saw were revised in 1962, just after the close of discussions here, but have had several earlier revisions.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Burning Box Car

 

Eldon,

Mont might be in his basement working on sweet freightcar models instead of looking at his computer, so I will send along a Monon coke car photo.  The car in the photo was rebuilt from a low-sided composite gon with a super-structure added  If you look closely you can see where the side stakes bolted to the frame.  Others were rebuilt from boxcars.  As Mont related, these caught fire every so often, so the car series changes over time.  In my late 40s time period there were 4 series numbered 900-1039.

Do you ever see any of these Monon cars in your photos of Pittsburgh?

Best Regards,

Mike Aufderheide 


Re: Red Owl warehouse

Dennis Storzek
 

On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 02:08 PM, np328 wrote:
Other than bicycles, I have paperwork showing cigarettes, matches, tires, (yes tires) magazines and books were a big back-haul commodity as they were clean...

You can add ceramic tile to that list, which was typically shipped boxed to prevent damage, and the boxes were small enough (it's heavy!) to easily hand truck out through the narrow door. There was a distribution warehouse for American Olean tile in the neighborhood I grew up in, that received as many reefers as boxcars.

Dennis Storzek


Re: L&N Woodrack -- 3

Steve Summers
 

Thanks, but as mentioned not my best effort. I could have done better at cutting and fitting the MDC Roundhouse ballast chutes. The inside shows more faults.  Figure some ballast will solve some of that.

Got one of the Western 29-yard air dump cars today.  I should ask how you added the lower panel, specifically the mount.  Maybe a picture of the backside shows that?  I assume you used brass, I’ll probably use styrene.


On Feb 26, 2021, at 5:28 PM, Bill McClure <virginianbill@...> wrote:


Really neat car, and so well done. Thanks for the ;ook.

Bill


Re: Red Owl warehouse

Tony Thompson
 

Jim Dick wrote:

Freight forwarders, a shipper that I have researched on repeatedly however found precious little historical data to be compiled for a presentation, liked reefers and the three for one deal, from what limited data I have found. However now we are veering off the original thread.        

I think it's vital to remember that major refrigerator car owners like PFE, ART, and FGE had their primary obligation to shippers of fresh produce. To the extent that any backhaul might interfere with that, they actively tried to AVOID backhaul. And of course they were paid mileage for the cars, loaded or empty, so in revenue terms they could not have cared less.
     The parent railroads, of course, would have been happy to see revenue from backhauls, but understood that produce had to come first. That load of bicycles would be okay if shipped next week, but probably not the heads of lettuce.

Tony Thompson




Re: Model Box Car End ID

Tim O'Connor
 

John

Huh, what? Are you joking? I have no authority here. Only Jeff & Mike can do that.

Those PS-1 ends were used on everyone's riveted PS-1 box cars. :-D

They were also applied to some "kit" box cars... (e.g. IC)



On 2/26/2021 2:03 PM, golden1014 via groups.io wrote:
Hi Ben, and Everybody,

I’ve been posting like crazy but found out I was on Permanent Moderate.  I blame Tim O’Connor for that.  Yeah, you Tim!

Anyway I was paging through an RP Cyc recently and discovered those ends were used on CNW riveted PS-1s.  They certainly are an oddity.

The reason I’m asking is I’m considering kitbashing a B&O car for the B&O Modeler that has similar ends.  Not exact, but similar.  

Thanks for the help!
John Golden

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: L&N Woodrack -- 3

Bill McClure
 

Really neat car, and so well done. Thanks for the ;ook.

Bill


Re: Red Owl warehouse

np328
 

   Other than bicycles, I have paperwork showing cigarettes, matches, tires, (yes tires) magazines and books were a big back-haul commodity as they were clean and headed from publishing houses in the east back west. Check past postings for other back-haul commodities as the "back-haul in reefers" has surfaced more than once.
Freight forwarders, a shipper that I have researched on repeatedly however found precious little historical data to be compiled for a presentation, liked reefers and the three for one deal, from what limited data I have found. However now we are veering off the original thread.        Jim Dick - St. Paul, MN 


Re: Burning Box Car

Rupert Gamlen
 

Staying with the wrecking equipment, does anyone recognise the origin of the boom car 207313? The attached photo by Bernard Corbin shows the boom car with CB&Q's 75 ton Industrial wrecking derrick 204334.

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of William Hirt
Sent: Saturday, 27 February 2021 4:21 am
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Burning Box Car

Looking at back at Eldon's original picture, it looks like the CB&Q crane is #204360 which was stationed at Galesburg. There is a picture of it (the reverse side in the late 1960s and repainted) in the new Morning Sun book Crane and Derrick Color Portfolio Volume 1.

Bill Hirt

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