Date   

Re: Red Owl warehouse

Enzo Fortuna
 

Attached is a photo of bulk sugar begin unloaded from a boxcar

looking at similar photos ... I am always amazed by the hygienic principles of the method used in the years we model!
Good old time?
--
Enzo Fortuna


Re: Mystery boxcars - anyone know what these are based off or of any similar cars?

al_brown03
 

Years ago I detailed up one of those TM double-sheathed boxcars with the Dreadnaught end, as a stand-in for a Lehigh Valley '24 ARA double-sheathed boxcar. The discrepancy between the 3/3/3 end, and the correct 4/4 (I think it is), I just ignored.
<sirens wail> 

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: Mystery boxcars - anyone know what these are based off or of any similar cars?

Jack Mullen
 

On Sun, Feb 28, 2021 at 01:01 PM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford wrote:
The 3/3/3 end on the SP car would be rarity.
I really wonder about those ends. The 3/3/3 dreadnaught was used in the '20s on 10' IH auto cars. The T-M model is more like 8'6", maybe 9' IH. Maybe they reduced the rib spacing ??

Jack Mullen


Re: Mystery boxcars - anyone know what these are based off or of any similar cars?

Ray Carson
 

I'm glad the Red Caboose (Intermountain) X29s are a thing. I wish Intermountain made more of them. Unbuilt kits all over the place are also good.


Re: PFE Express Reefer Color

Ray Carson
 

Thanks everyone. I do have plans to redo the car due to my errors and me scraping off rivets that didn't belong on the prototype.

Has anyone here ever made their own hatch platforms for these cars? A bit was shown on Tony's blog. I was considering using Tichy platforms but the hatches on the prototype are probably larger.


Re: Freight Terminals & Trains

Kenneth Montero
 

NMRA offers a reprint of this book.
 $60.00 hardback, includes shipping. May be cheaper than copying a download and then printing it., especially if ypu include the value of your time dealing with this download.
Ken Montero 


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: "Bill Keene via groups.io" <bill41@...>
Date: 2/28/21 4:33 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: "main@realstmfc.groups.io" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Freight Terminals & Trains

I have a hardbound copy of Passenger Terminals and Trains. Am very glad to learn that there is a download available for Freight Terminals and Trains. 

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA


On Feb 28, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

I searched on Passenger Terminals and Trains and found his other classic book for download.
 
Nelson Moyer
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Doug Paasch
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2021 3:15 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Freight Terminals & Trains
 
Thanks for pointing this scan out, Bob.  I noticed that the physical book they scanned was through the courtesy of funding by James J. Hill as mentioned on the first flyleaf.  Good old Jim Hill still educating us about railroading!
 
  Doug Paasch

 

On Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 11:38 AM Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:
Freight Terminals & Trains
The 1912 book, Freight Terminals & Trains by John A. Droege, has a ton material applicable to the Steam Era.
Here is a link.
This material can be download as a PDF or as plain text.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA



Re: Yards and Terminals and Their Operation was Freight Terminals & Trains

Nolan Hinshaw
 

On Feb 28, 2021, at 14:14, Peter Ness <prness@...> wrote:

And to complete the Droege “trilogy”, Yards and Terminals and Their Operation is also available on google books;
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Yards_and_Terminals_and_Their_Operation/AGw5AAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Yards+and+terminals+and+their+operation&printsec=frontcover
I have the complete set.


Frankly, as a New Haven modeler these are “must have’s”. While Droege covers many different railroads across all three books, many of his diagrams and operational descriptions are based on the work he did while at the New Haven Railroad.
One problem I find with the google books is some of the fold-out diagrams are cropped.
As I mentioned up-thread, I got the two more recent tomes from the local public library and copied the fold-outs.
--
"He sold his earthright for a pot of message."
F. Feghoot


Re: Shell reporting mark ?ZWX

Tim O'Connor
 


Shell also used SCMX SCCX SEMX SCAX

It's illegible in my opinion. The blur could be scanner artifacts.


On 2/28/2021 2:46 PM, John Barry wrote:
Scanning some photos by Raymond V. Pelot of Martinez today, I noticed a pair of Shell tank cars in the foreground.  SCCX 1114 was a 7960 gal TMI with heater coils and a 345 gal dome.  The silver Shell car next to it is a mystery with a _ZWX reporting mark.  Perusal of the 36 and 55 tank car tariffs and the 43 ORER don't provide an obvious answer.  Any ideas on the full mark?

John Barry


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Red Owl warehouse

Tony Thompson
 

Jim Dick wrote:

O'Connor, stated "- railroad traffic distances and routes often have nothing to do with the "shortest path" between two points."  
I do not think so. There is a cost to the railroad and every cost needs to be accounted for otherwise the railroad ultimately goes

     When we talk about costs, we seem to forget that nearly all haulage, per diem, switching etc. charges were SMALL compared to the revenue from freight bills. A little longer route would actually pay the handling railroads MORE.
       Jim, if you cannot believe this yet, have a look at my current blog post, about a definitely "not shortest path" routing. Each route segment only had to be an "approved routing," meaning it had a tariff. 


Tony Thompson




Re: Red Owl warehouse

Tim O'Connor
 


Right - we've forgotten corn syrup! My mom always had Caro syrup in the kitchen.


On 2/28/2021 11:41 AM, Mont Switzer wrote:

For what it is worth the Michigan Sugar mill in Caro, MI is supposed to be the oldest standing business of this type in the USA.  It is inland and only served by rail and truck.

 

Mont Switzer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of William Hirt
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2021 10:14 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Red Owl warehouse

 

Great Western Sugar built a sugar terminal facility in Western Springs IL in the late 1950s/early 1960s. This is on the CB&Q triple track mainline in the Chicago suburbs. The sugar shipped from this facility came from Great Western's processing facilities in Colorado and Wyoming. So that would be 1,000 mile one way trip. Now by that time the commodity was being shipped in bulk by Airslide or the early PS-2 3-bay Covered Hoppers (especially to a terminal). These definitely influenced the transportation costs and I wonder if the transportation distance issue changed substantially between 1950 and 1960 for commodities like sugar.

Bill Hirt

On 2/27/2021 8:00 PM, np328 wrote:

Not to throw the Red Owl warehouse topic off or head off in a tangent, however with all due respect to "where the sugar comes from” regarding the Hopkins MN warehouse; 
   Sugar is (1) a bulk commodity, (2) it is publicly traded, and should it be cane or beet (3) it is grown in many areas around the US.


Sugar costs are low, low enough that in that the US sugar industry, price supports exist to maintain US sugar independence.  

And because of all of the above - shipping transport costs quickly assume a great importance to final prices when all other costs tend to be either low or stable across large areas. 
Here we have both.

      I dislike greatly the mixing of data across eras, and am aware of this lists cut-off date of 1960, something I very strongly support. However ask that the map introduced by this link be looked at and ask yourself the question; with all these sugar processing options closer to the Hopkins, MN Red Owl warehouse, just south of the Twin Cities or in the Red River Valley, why would one go into MT?             Billings is closer (550-600 miles) to the population center of Denver, CO and seems a more logical destination.  (Wasn't there a large baking consortium there?)


https://sugaralliance.org/us-sugar/sugars-coast-to-coast-reach

_,_._,_


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Mystery boxcars - anyone know what these are based off or of any similar cars?

Tim O'Connor
 


For how many years was the TM steel box car the only model that could stand in for the X29? :-D

Tim O'

On 2/28/2021 2:07 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
Todd Sullivan  wrote:

They look like Train Miniature double wood sheathed steel end 40ft boxcars that have no particular prototype, AFAIK.

Definitely Train Miniature. That whole line was supposed to represent various 1920s cars, but they made MANY compromises so they could use one underframe and interchange the molds for ends, sides and roofs. A  number of the permutations that they did produce had no prototype. But the basic cars were SUPPOSED to have prototypes.

Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Soo Line 50' boxcar kit Resin Car Works

Richard Remiarz
 

I am in the process of building the Resin Car Works Soo Line 50’ boxcar kit.  Two different type of brake gear are provided, but I couldn’t find any information that shows which series of cars used which brake gear.  Does  anyone have this information?

 

Sincerely,

Rich Remiarz

Vadnais Heights, MN

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: Yards and Terminals and Their Operation was Freight Terminals & Trains

Peter Ness
 

And to complete the Droege “trilogy”, Yards and Terminals and Their Operation is also available on google books;

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Yards_and_Terminals_and_Their_Operation/AGw5AAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Yards+and+terminals+and+their+operation&printsec=frontcover

 

Frankly, as a New Haven modeler these are “must have’s”. While Droege covers many different railroads across all three books, many of his diagrams and operational descriptions are based on the work he did while at the New Haven Railroad.

One problem I find with the google books is some of the fold-out diagrams are cropped.

 

Gotta catch ‘em all.

 

Peter Ness


Re: Freight Terminals & Trains

Rufus Cone
 

The later 1925 version is available free from google books
https://books.google.com/books/about/Freight_Terminals_and_Trains.html?id=9O5KAAAAMAAJ


Re: Freight Terminals & Trains

np328
 

  Thanks Bob for posting this link. 

Gems like this provide enjoyable reading and can be drawn upon again and again. 

Jerry Masters, a friend I have often researched with at the MNHS, who is also  a civil engineer and former railroad employee of the NP, later BN said that " a good mans idea on one railroad is a good idea on any mans railroad. An oak 12 x 12 timber has the same load characteristics on one railroad as it does on another. The same with a truss or a beam." 

Books like this are examples of people who felt the same way.           
                                                                                                                          again, thank you.                                                             Jim Dick - Roseville, MN 


Re: Freight Terminals & Trains

Eric Hansmann
 

The NMRA reprinted Freight Terminals & Trains several years ago. Copies are still available. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Feb 28, 2021, at 3:32 PM, Bill Keene via groups.io <bill41@...> wrote:

I have a hardbound copy of Passenger Terminals and Trains. Am very glad to learn that there is a download available for Freight Terminals and Trains. 

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA


On Feb 28, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

I searched on Passenger Terminals and Trains and found his other classic book for download.
 
Nelson Moyer
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Doug Paasch
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2021 3:15 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Freight Terminals & Trains
 
Thanks for pointing this scan out, Bob.  I noticed that the physical book they scanned was through the courtesy of funding by James J. Hill as mentioned on the first flyleaf.  Good old Jim Hill still educating us about railroading!
 
  Doug Paasch

 

On Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 11:38 AM Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:
Freight Terminals & Trains
The 1912 book, Freight Terminals & Trains by John A. Droege, has a ton material applicable to the Steam Era.
Here is a link.
This material can be download as a PDF or as plain text.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA



Re: Freight Terminals & Trains

Bill Keene
 

I have a hardbound copy of Passenger Terminals and Trains. Am very glad to learn that there is a download available for Freight Terminals and Trains. 

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA


On Feb 28, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

I searched on Passenger Terminals and Trains and found his other classic book for download.
 
Nelson Moyer
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Doug Paasch
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2021 3:15 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Freight Terminals & Trains
 
Thanks for pointing this scan out, Bob.  I noticed that the physical book they scanned was through the courtesy of funding by James J. Hill as mentioned on the first flyleaf.  Good old Jim Hill still educating us about railroading!
 
  Doug Paasch

 

On Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 11:38 AM Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:
Freight Terminals & Trains
The 1912 book, Freight Terminals & Trains by John A. Droege, has a ton material applicable to the Steam Era.
Here is a link.
This material can be download as a PDF or as plain text.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA



Re: Red Owl warehouse

np328
 

O'Connor, stated "- railroad traffic distances and routes often have nothing to do with the "shortest path" between two points."  
I do not think so. There is a cost to the railroad and every cost needs to be accounted for otherwise the railroad ultimately goes
- like the Rock Island example given, bankrupt.  So hey, good example.

Next - give a summation that  "Present day shipping is VERY different than it was in the STMFC era."   Present day does not exist here on the STMFC, it ends at the end of 1960. However you have heard that before.     (Moderators - time to repost the date frame for this list.) 
This list exists in the still much regulated era of ICC and AAR.

Extra cars can be a company use car or any other. And even if a car is used as filler for an under-tonnage manifest, there are still costs involved. In handling the car, switching the car, the extra fuel used. If management are doing their jobs properly, they already have a handle on costs and room for marginal freight is rare. Even more rare on the NP where the loaded freight moved predominantly eastbound.

And the comment - that's what lawyers are for, cutely sidesteps showing any factual documentation to support the opinions expressed.

I will say this again I have said it before: railroads are a business legally bound to their shareholders to maximize profits. 

                              You have gone after others before in this manner and I guess I am just the latest one.                             Jim Dick - Roseville, MN 


   


Re: Mystery boxcars - anyone know what these are based off or of any similar cars?

CapnMatter
 

Thanks for the advice, Garth. When I bought the cars I had seen they needed grab irons and brake detail. I hadn't noticed that the SP car had metal ends when I bought it, I had thought it was identical to the Stark Trees. I'm not against doing cutting work and making or buying new parts as needed. I'm largely looking for prototypes that I can perhaps choose as reference for rebuilding and repainting.


On Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 3:02 PM Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:
Cap,

As others have noted, these are Train Miniature cars. The Stark Trees boxcar with wooden ends might be convertible to a number of prototypes, especially if you shave off the grabs and don't count roof battens, except for that side sill that sticks out so alarmingly. Of course the door tracks and those huge Athearn-like claws are a serious flaw.

The 3/3/3 end on the SP car would be rarity. This one might be better if you cut the ends off and replaced them with Tichy or Westerfield pieces, depending on your possible prototype.

In general TM boxcars might have some historic value, but they really don't stand up to modern scrutiny. I had a mess of TM boxcars from when they were pretty much the only game in town, and all were sold off long ago except one I reworked with added separate details and custom lettering. Their all-wood refrigerator cars might have more applications for kit-bashing as reefers or boxcars (they lack that annoying sill), especially for a fictional private roadname. I have a couple of reefers that were on their way to becoming early boxcars for my Virginia Midland, but they're still sitting on my workbench. Someday maybe.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆

On Sun, Feb 28, 2021 at 1:25 PM CapnMatter <capnmatter@...> wrote:
I bought these cars for cheap at a trainshow the other day, I knew when I bought them they'd need work. I'm sure there's cars that line up with these, I just don't know of what. Anyone know?

Dimensions-
141.2mm long, or in HO 40ft
33.3mm wide, or 9ft 6in
35.9mm tall, or about 10ft tall

Attachments:


Re: Freight Terminals & Trains

Nelson Moyer
 

I searched on Passenger Terminals and Trains and found his other classic book for download.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Doug Paasch
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2021 3:15 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Freight Terminals & Trains

 

Thanks for pointing this scan out, Bob.  I noticed that the physical book they scanned was through the courtesy of funding by James J. Hill as mentioned on the first flyleaf.  Good old Jim Hill still educating us about railroading!

 

  Doug Paasch

 

On Sun, Feb 28, 2021, 11:38 AM Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Freight Terminals & Trains

The 1912 book, Freight Terminals & Trains by John A. Droege, has a ton material applicable to the Steam Era.

Here is a link.

Freight Terminals and Trains: Including a Revision of Yards and Terminals - John Albert Droege - Google Books

This material can be download as a PDF or as plain text.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

11261 - 11280 of 193500